Sorcery/Witchcraft what are these works of the flesh?

[unworthyservant]

13 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

When people who are not scholars (or even if they are) try to assign a meaning to modern word, based on the similarity to it's root in the same or another language, they often are making an error. Language does not work like that. If we were to go that way, then we should call Paul a witch or a sorcerer, since he prescribed that Timothy should take a little wine for his stomach's sake.

This is the sort of thing D.A. Carson mentions in his book, "Exegetical Fallacies" when a person tries to conclude from a root meaning and transfer it to a modern usage (I guess I already said that), well let's not make that mistake ourselves. Modern drugs save lives, frequently, and to infer that those involved in that industry are somehow witches or something like that, is to pratice a kind of defamation of character that we know as libel in the United State. If nothing else, it is just ignorant rumor mongering of a class of people, who do not deserve it.

Here in the O.P., the author is avoiding that by posing a question, which then encourages others to do the dirty work, and it is not a noble thing for a Christian to do. When one has the 20 years or so experience translating Koine Greek it takes to become an expert in the field, then post your conclusions. Dipping into Strong's (a work designed for shallow study by laymen) does not qualify one to translate scripture, at LEAST use something more scholarly focused (like Bauer Arndt Gingrich Danker Lexicon), not works meant for more casual reference like Vines, etc.

If we want to keep the exegetical fallacy, then let's at least be consistent. I vote then that when we say someone or something is hysterical, that we really mean they have a uterus.

hysterical (adj.)
1610s, "characteristic of hysteria," the nervous disease originally defined as a neurotic condition peculiar to women and thought to be caused by a dysfunction of the uterus; literally "of the womb," from Latin hystericus "of the womb," from Greek hysterikos "of the womb, suffering in the womb," from hystera "womb"

You are correct in the idea that translation can be a tricky thing. I generally check Strong's and Matthew Henry. Sometimes there's good stuff in John Gills. point is knowing it's tricky, I generally don't engage in translation issues unless there's an obvious question as in this case that question is if Paul said sorcery, then why didn't the Greek manuscripts use mageia which according to both Strong's and Meyer's is the literal word for sorcery and not nearly as ambiguous.

[Omegaman 3.0]

3 minutes ago, unworthyservant said:

You are correct in the idea that translation can be a tricky thing.

Thanks for acknowledging that, is is too easy to think we know enough to me wannabe translators.

[unworthyservant]

1 minute ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Thanks for acknowledging that, is is too easy to think we know enough to me wannabe translators.

Let me just add the following. I don't have an answer to the question, I simply found it and thought it posed an interesting translation question. Fact is, I don't really care that I don't know. If God really needed me to know he would show me the answer.

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 minutes ago, unworthyservant said:

I simply found it and thought it posed an interesting translation question. Fact is, I don't really care that I don't know.

Well, in all honesty, it has been addressed on the forums before!

Some are just hung up on certain ideas, flat earth, Nephilim, other excentric notions gain a lot of traction with some, I think some enjoy controversy, I admit that I at times do.

 

[Jostler]

the link between the root Greek words related to pharmakeia and modern English use  of "pharmacy" is hardly controversial

https://www.etymonline.com/word/pharmacy

 

The blurring of the  lines between medicine and sorcery outside the Scripture is hardly surprising to me either.   The Bible reveals a lot  about various "spiritual disciplines" that are strictly forbidden to those who  belong  to Him and many are related to the use  of mind altering substances, and many are not. 

Witchcraft, sorcery, necromancy, astral projection, "soul capture" ....lots of truly satanic stuff recorded in Scripture.   And it fills the world around us to this day.

 

Edit to add:  I put "spiritual disciplines" in quotes because though these wicked substitutes may  well result in experiences of the  spirit realm, a "dead" spirit cannot discern spiritual things at all ....without 'help' of one kind or another.  Witchcraft might better be described as soulishly energized, demonically assisted forced entry into a realm we're totally unprepared to deal with...and forbidden to enter apart from His invitation.

John 10, has a lot of revelation  that impacts  on this topic.  There is legal entry and illegal entry....those that enter by the Door are legally allowed  entry.   Those that "climb up" by a window or some other means are self-identified as thieves and robbers....illegal aliens in  "realm" they  have no right to enter. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Jostler

[Worship Warriors]

yes, it is very clear in the bible that witchcraft and sorcery are the works of the flesh.

[gdemoss]

On 8/18/2019 at 5:09 PM, unworthyservant said:

Galatians 5:19-21 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁹ Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

²⁰ Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

²¹ Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Other versions use sorcery instead of witchcraft but what did Paul really say? In the Greek it says pharmakeia, which originates from

pharmakeuó. Strong's defines it as the use of medicine, drugs or spells and the administration of drugs, respectively.. The Latin pharmacopolium is where we get our modern word Pharmacy.

So, what was Paul actually warning us about? Of course when the KJV of the Bible was written witchcraft was considered evil while pharmacy as related to medicine of the time was becoming widely accepted. Others use sorcery here. Either way, how did they come to that narrow interpretation given the broader definition of the Greek manuscripts? 

 

 

Hi unworthyservant,

I believe you are on to something when you seek to look at words for the truth they contain.  After all words were what framed and uphold all things.  About 6 years ago I had an experience while praying for the gift of interpretation of tongues that I found to be intriguing and amazing.  I believe I was led of the spirit to see the 'twist' of the tongue created at Babel where one language became many.  

That said, look at the words in our modern English we use as well as those of old.  One who sources would be a sorcerer.  Source denotes choice.  Witch or which?  Also a choice.  Witches use spells so please don't get caught up on spelling...from the beginning of time the problem has always been one of choice.  The Serpent showed up and beguiled, deceived, fooled, tricked or whatever word you want to use to describe his pulling the wool over Eve's eyes was and presented a choice, albeit a lie.  Since then we have always been offered new lies with every truth.  

So let's talk about the spirit for a minute since the spirit is what is contrasted with the flesh when it comes to these things.  The spirit produces an 'effect' that brings forth fruit.  The power needed to bring love, bring joy, bring peace etc.  Then we have the lies of the flesh and their products the produce such as sorcery or witchcraft.  The spirit of God is the real deal.  The alternative source is a lie.  Earthy, sensual...devilish!  Let's look at alcohol and its Bacchus effect or the God like effect produced by alcohol.  Under normal circumstances people celebrate and drink alcohol but others, known as drunkards, abuse the substance and become given to the stuff seeking to feel its god like effects instead of seeking after God.  Same with form-a-suit-i-kills...drugs, for some are a necessary solution to an ailment but others go further and seek to substitute drugs as a god that gives them the feeling they desire.  Something that lies to them and tells them they are not separated from God (break on thru to the other side anyone?).

I believe anything can be used or abused.  The law can be used to discover God or abused and thought to make one righteous by adhering to what one perceives the law to be saying.

An interesting correlation I have found is in how alcohol and many drugs are cleansing agents and the people who abuse them are many times in need of confession to rid themselves of the dirty secrets that plague them at night as they try to sleep.  

I don't care for scholarly or long winded debates about root words of ancient languages from those who profess themselves to be wise in them.  I am glad to remain a fool.  A devil is nothing more than a defiled spirit. Care for a demonstration?  Boil some eggs, remove the yokes, add mayo, salt, yellow mustard and vinegar mix then return contents back into boiled egg white halves and wa-la!  Defiled eggs!!! Or deviled if you will.  Either way, they are no longer purely eggs...therefore we are careful not to take what God has said and add to it then mix it up and serve it to others lest we and they become defiled (or devils if you will).

I perceive the long answer is always seen over the length of the scriptures.  In the simple testimony of the written stories.  Without God and following what his son said we are left to turn to substitutes.  Substitutes that leave us wanting more.  Those scholarly types can succumb to worshiping the intellect (I did) and the thirst for knowledge only grows and every new discovery brings yet more questions.

I must keep it simple.  The Self Existent One Is Salvation from all things and I dare not turn to the weak and beggarly elements as a substitute seeking absolution in a bottle, a joint, a potion or lotion or pill.  Instead he said I should confess my sins to my fellow laborers and they should pray that I be healed.  Jesus said I should stop making decisions based upon self (like Eve did when she was fooled) and start living a wholesome life where I would not only love them who love me but also love them who hate me and use me etc.  

James said that if I didn't then I was doomed to live in self-delusion where I would be lost (I didn't and was left to my own devices and ended up in the mental institution).  

Most everything I believe today is not because I sat down and studied the scriptures alone but rather study, prayer and most important practical application through living it combined with hands on ministry seeking to save the lost.  

In the beginning was the word (logos) and today we build with Legos how fun!  Words are where it all happens!!!  God called things that were not as if they were and they became.  Dig deeper into language and you will not be disappointed.  I remember once asking why they are called letters?  Do they let?  Yes, they do!

Have fun on your journey of discovery!

[unworthyservant]

7 minutes ago, gdemoss said:

Hi unworthyservant,

I believe you are on to something when you seek to look at words for the truth they contain.  After all words were what framed and uphold all things.  About 6 years ago I had an experience while praying for the gift of interpretation of tongues that I found to be intriguing and amazing.  I believe I was led of the spirit to see the 'twist' of the tongue created at Babel where one language became many.  

That said, look at the words in our modern English we use as well as those of old.  One who sources would be a sorcerer.  Source denotes choice.  Witch or which?  Also a choice.  Witches use spells so please don't get caught up on spelling...from the beginning of time the problem has always been one of choice.  The Serpent showed up and beguiled, deceived, fooled, tricked or whatever word you want to use to describe his pulling the wool over Eve's eyes was and presented a choice, albeit a lie.  Since then we have always been offered new lies with every truth.  

So let's talk about the spirit for a minute since the spirit is what is contrasted with the flesh when it comes to these things.  The spirit produces an 'effect' that brings forth fruit.  The power needed to bring love, bring joy, bring peace etc.  Then we have the lies of the flesh and their products the produce such as sorcery or witchcraft.  The spirit of God is the real deal.  The alternative source is a lie.  Earthy, sensual...devilish!  Let's look at alcohol and its Bacchus effect or the God like effect produced by alcohol.  Under normal circumstances people celebrate and drink alcohol but others, known as drunkards, abuse the substance and become given to the stuff seeking to feel its god like effects instead of seeking after God.  Same with form-a-suit-i-kills...drugs, for some are a necessary solution to an ailment but others go further and seek to substitute drugs as a god that gives them the feeling they desire.  Something that lies to them and tells them they are not separated from God (break on thru to the other side anyone?).

I believe anything can be used or abused.  The law can be used to discover God or abused and thought to make one righteous by adhering to what one perceives the law to be saying.

An interesting correlation I have found is in how alcohol and many drugs are cleansing agents and the people who abuse them are many times in need of confession to rid themselves of the dirty secrets that plague them at night as they try to sleep.  

I don't care for scholarly or long winded debates about root words of ancient languages from those who profess themselves to be wise in them.  I am glad to remain a fool.  A devil is nothing more than a defiled spirit. Care for a demonstration?  Boil some eggs, remove the yokes, add mayo, salt, yellow mustard and vinegar mix then return contents back into boiled egg white halves and wa-la!  Defiled eggs!!! Or deviled if you will.  Either way, they are no longer purely eggs...therefore we are careful not to take what God has said and add to it then mix it up and serve it to others lest we and they become defiled (or devils if you will).

I perceive the long answer is always seen over the length of the scriptures.  In the simple testimony of the written stories.  Without God and following what his son said we are left to turn to substitutes.  Substitutes that leave us wanting more.  Those scholarly types can succumb to worshiping the intellect (I did) and the thirst for knowledge only grows and every new discovery brings yet more questions.

I must keep it simple.  The Self Existent One Is Salvation from all things and I dare not turn to the weak and beggarly elements as a substitute seeking absolution in a bottle, a joint, a potion or lotion or pill.  Instead he said I should confess my sins to my fellow laborers and they should pray that I be healed.  Jesus said I should stop making decisions based upon self (like Eve did when she was fooled) and start living a wholesome life where I would not only love them who love me but also love them who hate me and use me etc.  

James said that if I didn't then I was doomed to live in self-delusion where I would be lost (I didn't and was left to my own devices and ended up in the mental institution).  

Most everything I believe today is not because I sat down and studied the scriptures alone but rather study, prayer and most important practical application through living it combined with hands on ministry seeking to save the lost.  

In the beginning was the word (logos) and today we build with Legos how fun!  Words are where it all happens!!!  God called things that were not as if they were and they became.  Dig deeper into language and you will not be disappointed.  I remember once asking why they are called letters?  Do they let?  Yes, they do!

Have fun on your journey of discovery!

Thank you. I feel like I might have opened a can of worms. (didn't mean to). My theory is once you've opened a can of worms just as well go fishing.

[BeauJangles]

1 minute ago, unworthyservant said:

Thank you. I feel like I might have opened a can of worms. (didn't mean to). My theory is once you've opened a can of worms just as well go fishing.

Even if the chance of catching something are against the odds, right? That's pretty funny, I'll have to remember that one! 

[unworthyservant]

1 minute ago, BeauJangles said:

Even if the chance of catching something are against the odds, right? That's pretty funny, I'll have to remember that one! 

Yeah, no use wasting worms.