Christ Or An Angel?

[Dennis1209]

11 hours ago, ReneeIW said:

Anyone know how these verses are interpreted in Judaism? Obviously they don’t believe it’s the Lord Jesus but they also have to recognize that Jews were forbidden to bow down and worship anyone but God. So who do they say Joshua is worshipping?

I'm not well versed in Judaism , but I think their Bible is the first five books of the Old Testament called the Torah, or Pentateuch. Joshua being the 'sixth' book, I don't know that they read or study from Joshua through Malachi. Don't quote me on this because I'm not that familiar, maybe someone else will chime in?

[Jayne]

Quote

 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

There's LORD [all caps] - which is literally the name "Yehovah"  and then here's Lord  or lord [ just one or no caps]- which is just a generic word for "master".  It could be in reference to Christ as Lord or a servant having an earthly lord or master.

My "go to" Bibles - ESV, King James, NASB -  all have the two words written the way I have it quoted above.  So do several other Bibles, but not all Bibles.  I did a quick search on biblehub.com

Yes, this was Christ, if you will, but Joshua didn't know that.  We know that.

All he knew was that his man was the captain of the "LORD's" host.  Meaning the man who was in charge of the armies of God.

The Hebrew word "worship" merely means to "bow down".  When one worships God - by bowing of the body, mind, heart, or soul - it's treating him AS God, in holy reverence reserved for ONLY God.  

But Abraham "bowed" [exact same Hebrew word] to the three strangers coming to his tent.  Those were Christ and two angels.  He was merely showing the proper hospitality and etiquette.  Of course, he did come to find out exactly to whom he was bowing.

So, in essence.....

….Yes, this was Christ to whom Joshua was bowing.  We know that.  Joshua did not.  He calls the man "l"ord - lower case.  To me this means that while he did not know it was Christ, he DID know the man was from heaven and from God -  sent to him and Joshua knew that if this man commanded the armies of God in the supernatural realm, that he was to be a servant to this person and to do what he tells him to do.  

Joshua was not worshipping in the sense of treating someone as God and reverencing him as God.  He was showing respect to a messenger of God and indirectly showing reverence TO God.

To me, the evidence is that Joshua called him "lord" and not "Lord/LORD".

 

 

 

[Jayne]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I'm not well versed in Judaism , but I think their Bible is the first five books of the Old Testament called the Torah, or Pentateuch. Joshua being the 'sixth' book, I don't know that they read or study from Joshua through Malachi. Don't quote me on this because I'm not that familiar, maybe someone else will chime in?

You are on the right track!

Yes, the first five books of the Jewish scriptures are the same as ours and are called the Torah or the Pentateuch.

But that's not all.  Jews have the same exactly scriptures as our Old Testament.  It's called the Tanakh.  That's a comfort to me to know that nothing changed from God's Word at ALL when the New Testament was added.

Jews have fewer "books" than our Old Testament because they group some of them together like 1/2 Samuel is just Samuel to them.

With all of their groupings, they have 24 books and we have 39 books.  But it is the exact same content.

Which ones they put emphasis on above others, I don't know.

[GandalfTheWise]

On 8/19/2019 at 2:07 PM, ReneeIW said:

What does the Church teach about these Scriptures?Is this Christ appearing in Old Testament times or an Angel?

The theological terms are theophany (appearance of God), christophany (appearance of Christ), and angelophany (appearance of an angel).   There is debate over which of these three apply to various verses in the OT.  There is debate over which appearances are God, a pre-incarnate Christ, or an angel.

Some  Christians do believe Jesus appeared in pre-incarnate form at various times in the OT.  Some passages which might involve this are Genesis 12 (The Lord appearing to Abraham), Genesis 18 (one of 3 visitors to Abraham), Genesis 32 (Jacob wrestling with someone), Exodus 3 (burning bush), Exodus 24 (God appearing to Moses and the elders), and Judges 13(Samson's parents seeing an angel of the Lord).  There are other passages as well.  

One thing to note in the OT is that falling down on one's knees was not reserved solely for worship of God and was used as a show of respect.  The term "lord" was often used in normal human interaction as a show of respect.

I've not formed a strong opinion in any direction.  There really aren't any essential Christian beliefs and practices which hinge on this.  I see this as something that one can spend a lot of time debating without really resolving anything.

 

[ReneeIW]

6 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

One thing to note in the OT is that falling down on one's knees was not reserved solely for worship of God and was used as a show of respect.  The term "lord" was often used in normal human interaction as a show of respect.

Ok. What about the “holy ground” that is mentioned in verse 15? Wouldn’t that point to God actually being present?

[GandalfTheWise]

2 hours ago, ReneeIW said:

Ok. What about the “holy ground” that is mentioned in verse 15? Wouldn’t that point to God actually being present?

Exodus 3 has the story of Moses and the burning bush.  Verse 2 clearly says it was an angel of the Lord appearing to Moses.  As he approached, then God spoke to him from the bush including telling him not to come closer because the ground was holy and to take off his sandals.   In this case, we have both the appearance of an angel and the presence of God after the angel piqued Moses' curiosity to come closer.  It was also interesting that Moses didn't know God was there God until God told him so.   It could be a similar situation in Joshua 5:13-15 that the man (or angel) Joshua saw brought his attention to the fact God was there even though Joshua wasn't aware of it and was relaying God's words to him. 

 Are some of the OT passages Jesus appearing in pre-incarnate form? Perhaps.  I don't have a strong opinion either way though I find those Christians scholars who reject this to have done solid research from a hermeneutical standpoint.

As far as I can tell, the NT makes no specific reference to Christ being manifested on earth prior to his birth and incarnation so this belief seems to have arisen some time later.  In some ways this is an amazing absence in that Peter or Paul could have pointed to those scriptures saying how Jesus had appeared to Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, and others while they were proclaiming Christ to the Jews.  John when combatting gnosticism could have clearly portrayed the contrast between appearances of Christ (which is basically what some gnostics were teaching) versus his full incarnation but doesn't.   The lack of any NT record of any of the original apostles explicitly quoting an OT passage and saying it was Jesus who appeared is interesting.   

This does not mean this idea is wrong as it took the church centuries to clarify various things such as the Trinity, but just that perhaps it was not clearly taught or understood by the first Christians.   The concept goes back at least as far as the church father Justin Martyr (2nd century) who associated the "Angel of the Lord" with the second person of the Trinity, the Son or Word or Logos, in pre-incarnate form.   Though note that Justin Martyr took this to the point of attributing much of human wisdom in unbelievers to the actions of the pre-incarnate Christ.  In addition many of the early church fathers held this view though it was also held by some with heretical views who used it to bolster their positions.

As far as I can tell, this seems to be a view that got passed on among many Christians through the ages without serious examination by a number of commentators who just basically repeated what they had been taught.   A book in 1852 seems to have ushered in a revival of this belief.  Here's a link.  https://archive.org/details/doctrinemanifes00dobbgoog/page/n7    In 1978, James Borland published Christ in the Old Testament: Old Testament Appearances of Christ in Human Form which seems to have lead to a widespread modern day popularity of this belief among evangelicals.  

I think that the most important thing is to emphasize a clear cut difference between some type of appearances and the actual incarnation of Jesus as fully God also becoming fully human.

 

 

[Justin Adams]

On 8/20/2019 at 1:36 AM, ReneeIW said:

Anyone know how these verses are interpreted in Judaism? Obviously they don’t believe it’s the Lord Jesus but they also have to recognize that Jews were forbidden to bow down and worship anyone but God. So who do they say Joshua is worshipping?

Oh, but the second Yahweh figure was a well know Hebraic idea. They knew their scriptures well and in the Court room in Psalms, the 'man' talked to the One who sits on the throne. Yeshua is very evident in many passages and seems to be there with Yahweh, like the Gideon account and the burning bush account. There are two there. Ezekiel's throne account also sees a son of man and the fiery furnace in Daniel. Many places.

[Willa]

Angel mean messenger.  Jesus said He is the I AM in John 8:58.  God said the same thing in Exodus 3  Tell them I AM has sent you.  Then He gives His Name as YHVH.  Some think it means I AM.  So Jesus is YHVH God, Who Is and Was and Is To Come.  He IS.  And He is the Messenger Who appears in the Old Testament.  Even The Word Who was made flesh.  

[nobleseed]

On 8/20/2019 at 5:07 AM, ReneeIW said:

 What does the Church teach about these Scriptures?Is this Christ appearing in Old Testament times or an Angel?

 

1. 

Joshua 5:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

 

2.

Daniel 3:25 King James Version (KJV) 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

read hebrews 1 it refutes Jesus being an angel

[Justin Adams]

I will say this again. Angel is NOT ontological it is merely a job description. Any non-material being (including Yeshua) can be called an 'angel' or messenger. Simple.