The fulness of the Gentiles

[Gentle-Warrior]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

ROFL   It would be extremely difficult to manipulate or twist nothing!

I'm lost here. What were we talking about? 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

I'm lost here. What were we talking about? 

there is no need to manipulate, twist and distort what He didn't say and what the NT is completely silent about.

[choir loft]

On 8/29/2019 at 7:16 PM, dhchristian said:

One of the great overlooked or misunderstood concepts is What the "fulness of the Gentiles" entails. 

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness ^G4138 of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25)

Most scholars and commentaries say this is a marker of when the dispensation of the Gentiles reverts back to the Jews in Israel, That the number of Gentiles to be saved according to God's predestination is reached. If reading the text, it is easy to make this assumption. But often overlooked is the meaning of the Word "fulness", which I believe points to a completion, not of the number of people but of the Quality of those Gentiles, a state of fulness in Christ Jesus. I am not going to get into a big long study of this Word, which is plērōma The meanings I want to draw your attention to are as follows: that which is (has been) filled, in the NT, the body of believers, as that which is filled with the presence, power, agency, riches of God and of Christ. 

What if this Mystery is not speaking of the Number of gentiles that fill the Boat so to speak, But the Fulness of Christ in them that is indicative of an end time prophetic fulfillment? Let's take a look at some other verses that discuss this. You will note that these verses all come from Ephesians.

That in the dispensation of the fulness ^G4138 of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Eph 1:10) 

In this first verse we see the fulness of times, Pointing to the end of this Gentile dispensation, And this verse speaks of the gathering together as one, all things in Christ Jesus. As we Go on here you will see that this end time fulfillment is of this end time Unity which we will all be a part of.

Which is his body, the fulness ^G4138 of him that filleth all in all. (Eph 1:23)

This final statement of this powerful prayer (Eph. 1;17-23) Is Pointing us to reach a point of complete fulness in Christ Jesus, with him being our all in all. What this is speaking about is a filling with Christ, where there once was the doctrines and knowledge of man, The wisdom of God filling us as opposed to the Wisdom of Man. This is the starting point where He is able to fill us. I have mentioned this here before but it is the point when we respond to Jesus Questions, not with the pride of our own understanding, Instead we respond as Ezekiel did when asked if these dry bones could live with "LORD thou knowest" (Eze. 37:3) 

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness ^G4138 of God. (Eph 3:19) 

This verse, located in the second powerful prayer in Ephesians (3:14-21), Points us to yet another step in this final filling process, which is to be filled with the LOVE of Christ, Which surpasses, or exceeds Knowledge (Gnosis) of Him. So to this point , we have replaced the Wisdom of men, with the Wisdom of God, with a heart that is receptive to his teaching, and replaced our earthly knowledge of Him with His Love for us, which is speaking of the intimacy of this relationship, and the filling of us with his Love. 

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness ^G4138 of Christ: (Eph 4:13)

This final step is the Unity, and fulness we arrive at, "unto a perfect man" when we arrive at the fulness of Christ. 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Thus the Fulness of the gentiles is not so much a number of saved people reached with the Gospel, But a Maturity of relationship that we attain in the end times shortly before we are removed and replaced by Israel and their dispensation known as the final week for them. 

Jesus used the analogy of wineskins and old garments to describe this, as this is in essence what is happening to us, We have removed the Old, so that he can fill us with the new. No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. (Mat. 9:16-17)

If this has spoken to you, these two great prayers in Ephesians are where you begin. We are not speaking of salvation here, we are speaking of what happens to us when we are sanctified By the Holy Ghost, the next step in our walk is to take that new wineskin and fill it with Christ Jesus. Be warned, though, as with any clean house, the demons are lurking awaiting to return unto it with their friends...Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.(Matt. 12;44-45)

you must open the door to Christ Jesus.  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev. 3;20)

 

 

 

First of all it should be pointed out that the above quoted post is based upon Calvinist theology with a great deal of Replacement Theology for spice.  Neither of them is accurate.  Neither of them is sufficient to tell us what is going on.   Neither of them is adequate to explain the fulfillment of prophecy.

"Jerusalem shall be trodden under foot until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled." - Jesus as quoted by Luke 21:24b

On June 7, 1967, forces of the IDF entered Jerusalem.  On that day the city came under Jewish authority for the first time in nearly two thousand years.   The Biblical prophecy of the liberation of Jerusalem made by Jesus signifies three events.  

#1 - Jerusalem taken by Jews

#2 - Times of the gentiles ended

#3 - End of global persecution of Jews

Reread Luke 21:23-24 again.  It's very clear that Jesus is saying the times of Jewish persecution would continue until Jerusalem is liberated and that gentile rule of religious authority would last until then.

Consider the history of the church since 1967.   Whether you are aware of it or not, the church began a serious decline at that time.  It continues to this day when even the Pope has admitted to entire continents becoming secularized - beginning with Europe, the traditional seat of Christendom.

According to PEW and Gallup polls, regular attendance in American churches defined as one visit per month declined in 2010 to 50% of 1949 levels.   If the trend continues attendance will drop to 10% by 2050.

Church leaders, especially Catholic leaders, were once respected and politically influential.   Today they are a joke.  Catholic leadership is under fire for sexual abuses and failure of its leadership to recognize social issues of global importance.   Protestant leadership is even worse.  While more successful at sweeping immoral behavior under the carpet, Protestant leadership has driven the church into a situation many theologians refer to as "self-destructive" and close to "spiritual death".

Without dragging in more statistical evidence to prove my point, it is widely known and acknowledged that Christendom is dwindling.  Islam is enjoying a period of unprecedented growth at the expense of the church, yet it's being ignored by almost everyone in a position to address it.  

The days of the gentiles are over.  It's beyond time to use obsolete theology of Calvin and Darby to explain what is happening to us and time to see events as they truly are.   God's hand is upon Israel as it was in Biblical times.  The evidence of Jewish capture of Jerusalem is clear and obvious.

Something else is in the wind.  The wise man will recognize it and pray seriously about it.

The fool will continue to hold onto false doctrine and anti-semitic fantasies about the future.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Alive]

On 8/29/2019 at 6:16 PM, dhchristian said:

Most scholars and commentaries say this is a marker of when the dispensation of the Gentiles reverts back to the Jews in Israel, That the number of Gentiles to be saved according to God's predestination is reached. If reading the text, it is easy to make this assumption. But often overlooked is the meaning of the Word "fulness", which I believe points to a completion, not of the number of people but of the Quality of those Gentiles, a state of fulness in Christ Jesus. I am not going to get into a big long study of this Word, which is plērōma The meanings I want to draw your attention to are as follows: that which is (has been) filled, in the NT, the body of believers, as that which is filled with the presence, power, agency, riches of God and of Christ. 

What if this Mystery is not speaking of the Number of gentiles that fill the Boat so to speak, But the Fulness of Christ in them that is indicative of an end time prophetic fulfillment? Let's take a look at some other verses that discuss this. You will note that these verses all come from Ephesians.

 

 

 

 

 

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not both? A static number that the Lord anticipates and the Church maturation.

I always thought that the 153 fishes--a very specific number-- referred to the saints being drawn into Christ in the Church age. And that that number of saints would coincide with the other signs of the times and culmination of events prophesied. Our God is a multi-tasker.

I would call attention to His 'breaking down the middle wall of partition' to address that other stuff.

Is there a distinction between Israel and the 'Israel of God'.

Just a cupla thoughts.

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, choir loft said:

First of all it should be pointed out that the above quoted post is based upon Calvinist theology with a great deal of Replacement Theology for spice.  Neither of them is accurate.  Neither of them is sufficient to tell us what is going on.   Neither of them is adequate to explain the fulfillment of prophecy.

"Jerusalem shall be trodden under foot until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled." - Jesus as quoted by Luke 21:24b

On June 7, 1967, forces of the IDF entered Jerusalem.  On that day the city came under Jewish authority for the first time in nearly two thousand years.   The Biblical prophecy of the liberation of Jerusalem made by Jesus signifies three events.  

#1 - Jerusalem taken by Jews

#2 - Times of the gentiles ended

#3 - End of global persecution of Jews

Reread Luke 21:23-24 again.  It's very clear that Jesus is saying the times of Jewish persecution would continue until Jerusalem is liberated and that gentile rule of religious authority would last until then.

Consider the history of the church since 1967.   Whether you are aware of it or not, the church began a serious decline at that time.  It continues to this day when even the Pope has admitted to entire continents becoming secularized - beginning with Europe, the traditional seat of Christendom.

According to PEW and Gallup polls, regular attendance in American churches defined as one visit per month declined in 2010 to 50% of 1949 levels.   If the trend continues attendance will drop to 10% by 2050.

Church leaders, especially Catholic leaders, were once respected and politically influential.   Today they are a joke.  Catholic leadership is under fire for sexual abuses and failure of its leadership to recognize social issues of global importance.   Protestant leadership is even worse.  While more successful at sweeping immoral behavior under the carpet, Protestant leadership has driven the church into a situation many theologians refer to as "self-destructive" and close to "spiritual death".

Without dragging in more statistical evidence to prove my point, it is widely known and acknowledged that Christendom is dwindling.  Islam is enjoying a period of unprecedented growth at the expense of the church, yet it's being ignored by almost everyone in a position to address it.  

The days of the gentiles are over.  It's beyond time to use obsolete theology of Calvin and Darby to explain what is happening to us and time to see events as they truly are.   God's hand is upon Israel as it was in Biblical times.  The evidence of Jewish capture of Jerusalem is clear and obvious.

Something else is in the wind.  The wise man will recognize it and pray seriously about it.

The fool will continue to hold onto false doctrine and anti-semitic fantasies about the future.

Choir Loft.

You are confusing the church, which is the body of Christ with the institutional churches which are buildings and institutions of man. Though I agree with your assessment of the apostacy of the churches of today, who are foisting their version of Ecumenical unity on their members to accept compromise, So too in the background there are a group of overcomers that are coming out of these ecumenical heresies, and are finding a deep relationship with Jesus Christ who has become their head, as opposed to some institutional church.

I am not a Calvinist, nor am I anti-semetic. I am a Christian... One who follows Christ Jesus. But Neither am I wrapped up in the Hebrew roots heresies that many in the church are falling victim to today. Israel is still the enemy of the Gospel As per Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 

Yes they are Beloved for the Fathers' sake, But they are enemies until the blindness has been removed from their eyes (spiritual blindness) to follow them is to be led by the blind... Blind leading the blind. That is what a lot of Your Hebrew roots movements are doing. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25) Do you see how their regaining their sight is tied into the fulness of the Gentiles?

Instead of being a naysayer, why don't you embrace this as this is what will lead to the restoration of Israel. You do Love Israel don't you? This is how we can love them, and move to restore them, that eventually they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech 12:10)

If what is said is true about Noahidism, Talmudic Judaism will persecute the church, Just as they persecuted Christ. Through that persecution and our willingness to give our Testimony (martyria), they will in turn have their eyes opened Just as Saul's eyes were opened on the road to Damascus because of the testimony of Stephen whose robes were placed at Saul's feet. 

1967: You are confusing the FULNESS of the Gentiles with the TIMES of the gentiles (Luke 21:24, Rev. 11:2). You are also not aware that Gentiles still occupy Jerusalem, and in particular have control of the Holy Mount, so what happened in 1967 was incomplete. Rev. 11:2 speaks of this times of the gentiles equating with the temple mount specifically. The Fulness of the gentiles is an entirely different concept a Mystery being revealed here and now... Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Eph. 1:9-10)

Now for the sake of argument, I have presented a counter argument to your accusation based on scripture, Having quoted dozens of verses to present my case. In Your accusation you quoted only one verse, which I explained to you is not what I am talking about in this post. You are mistaking the "times of the gentiles" (Luke 21:24, Rev. 11:2) with the fulness of the gentiles and the fulness of times (Eph. 1:10, Romans 11;25). Your false accusations are based off of this misunderstanding and I am owed an apology for your failure to comprehend, which I doubt I will get.

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not both? A static number that the Lord anticipates and the Church maturation.

I always thought that the 153 fishes--a very specific number-- referred to the saints being drawn into Christ in the Church age. And that that number of saints would coincide with the other signs of the times and culmination of events prophesied. Our God is a multi-tasker.

I would call attention to His 'breaking down the middle wall of partition' to address that other stuff.

Is there a distinction between Israel and the 'Israel of God'.

Just a cupla thoughts.

A specific number reaching the fulness of Christ? Possible, though not absolute. Numbers are a thing of man, God reduced the number of Gideon's men based on their quality, thus the focus on numbers is not the way God Works. In fact he punished David and the Israelites for quantifying the nation. Elijah complained he was alone, but God had a remnant of 7000 set aside, so it goes both ways. I will leave the Quantity to God, and do my part in fulfilling the Quality in myself, and encouraging others to do so as well. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 peter 3:9) 

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

I would call attention to His 'breaking down the middle wall of partition' to address that other stuff.

Is there a distinction between Israel and the 'Israel of God'.

The restoration of Israel is a completion of the fulness I am speaking of. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Romans 11:12) 

Right now the nation of Israel is the fig tree with leaves, but no fruit. Fruit is produced By the Spirit, as is sight, the ability to see. Natural Israel is distinct from the Israel of God which is the fulness of both Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus. Replacement theology places the church in the place of Israel which I do not do, they are distinct at the present time. And there will come a unifying at a certain time, that all may walk in the fulness of Christ Jesus. Until Israel Mourn for Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) they will remain enemies of the Gospel. We as Christians are called to love our enemies.

[Alive]

21 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

The restoration of Israel is a completion of the fulness I am speaking of. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Romans 11:12) 

Right now the nation of Israel is the fig tree with leaves, but no fruit. Fruit is produced By the Spirit, as is sight, the ability to see. Natural Israel is distinct from the Israel of God which is the fulness of both Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus. Replacement theology places the church in the place of Israel which I do not do, they are distinct at the present time. And there will come a unifying at a certain time, that all may walk in the fulness of Christ Jesus. Until Israel Mourn for Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) they will remain enemies of the Gospel. We as Christians are called to love our enemies.

This was my point in quoting the scripture.

:-)

At times asking a question is a tool for a drawing out or teaching.

:-)

[Alive]

34 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

A specific number reaching the fulness of Christ? Possible, though not absolute. Numbers are a thing of man, God reduced the number of Gideon's men based on their quality, thus the focus on numbers is not the way God Works. In fact he punished David and the Israelites for quantifying the nation. Elijah complained he was alone, but God had a remnant of 7000 set aside, so it goes both ways. I will leave the Quantity to God, and do my part in fulfilling the Quality in myself, and encouraging others to do so as well. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 peter 3:9) 

Ya--it really doesn't matter one little bit, however, there is a number of souls to be drawn into Christ doing the church age and God most surely knows that number. To admit to that does no harm or injustice to the other.

[choir loft]

On 9/18/2019 at 11:58 AM, dhchristian said:

Choir Loft.

You are confusing the church, which is the body of Christ with the institutional churches which are buildings and institutions of man. Though I agree with your assessment of the apostacy of the churches of today, who are foisting their version of Ecumenical unity on their members to accept compromise, So too in the background there are a group of overcomers that are coming out of these ecumenical heresies, and are finding a deep relationship with Jesus Christ who has become their head, as opposed to some institutional church.

I am not a Calvinist, nor am I anti-semetic. I am a Christian... One who follows Christ Jesus. But Neither am I wrapped up in the Hebrew roots heresies that many in the church are falling victim to today. Israel is still the enemy of the Gospel As per Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 

Yes they are Beloved for the Fathers' sake, But they are enemies until the blindness has been removed from their eyes (spiritual blindness) to follow them is to be led by the blind... Blind leading the blind. That is what a lot of Your Hebrew roots movements are doing. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25) Do you see how their regaining their sight is tied into the fulness of the Gentiles?

Instead of being a naysayer, why don't you embrace this as this is what will lead to the restoration of Israel. You do Love Israel don't you? This is how we can love them, and move to restore them, that eventually they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech 12:10)

If what is said is true about Noahidism, Talmudic Judaism will persecute the church, Just as they persecuted Christ. Through that persecution and our willingness to give our Testimony (martyria), they will in turn have their eyes opened Just as Saul's eyes were opened on the road to Damascus because of the testimony of Stephen whose robes were placed at Saul's feet. 

1967: You are confusing the FULNESS of the Gentiles with the TIMES of the gentiles (Luke 21:24, Rev. 11:2). You are also not aware that Gentiles still occupy Jerusalem, and in particular have control of the Holy Mount, so what happened in 1967 was incomplete. Rev. 11:2 speaks of this times of the gentiles equating with the temple mount specifically. The Fulness of the gentiles is an entirely different concept a Mystery being revealed here and now... Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Eph. 1:9-10)

Now for the sake of argument, I have presented a counter argument to your accusation based on scripture, Having quoted dozens of verses to present my case. In Your accusation you quoted only one verse, which I explained to you is not what I am talking about in this post. You are mistaking the "times of the gentiles" (Luke 21:24, Rev. 11:2) with the fulness of the gentiles and the fulness of times (Eph. 1:10, Romans 11;25). Your false accusations are based off of this misunderstanding and I am owed an apology for your failure to comprehend, which I doubt I will get.

Your anti-semitic roots continue to show their ugly illogic.

Jews are not the enemy of the church.  Quite the opposite.   Historically, the church has been the greatest persecutor of Jews in history - greater even than the predations of Islam or Communism.  Is this something to be proud of - you apparently are.

If there are no Hebrew roots in Christianity, then where has the religion seated itself for nourishment?  I submit that it now exists as a useless weed in the midst of lies innuendo and doctrines of demons - as you have admitted and as has been predicted by Biblical text.   Subjective shifting sands of meaningless doctrine now suffice to replace objective Biblical LAW so that glib self-gratifying Christians may live proudly among sinners - being one with the world.  And all the while Christians wonder what has become of the world around them - even as they embrace demonic violent entertainment for themselves and their children.

Biblical illiteracy is rampant among Christians - who now have no idea why Christ died on the cross or that the LAW continues full strength even as in the days of Moses and Jesus.  They cannot answer the simplest challenge from atheists or god-haters or self-justified worldly minded persons - and they are proud of it.

You may use any scripture you choose to defend your hatred of the Hebrew roots of Christianity - they are all taken out of context.

I will not apologize for your lack of vision and your Biblical illiteracy and your misapprehension of current events or recent history.  There are none so blind as those who bury their heads in the shifting sands of popular opinion.  I will not apologize for your liberal use of religious slogans and buzz words which mean nothing at all.  Such words are the plague which is killing the church's reputation as a truthful representative of the gospel.  Indeed most people now have no idea what the gospel is.

Watch and learn if you can, pilgrim.    The days of the church are numbered because the church has turned its back upon God and His LAW.

Finally, I'm not confused about the nature of the church as you are.   The church is the body of Christ - A JEW.  Those who are saved in His name become Jews.  Rather than hate Jewish tradition, I suggest you explore it.   You could do worse by continuing to memorize more buzz words and slogans.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... 

Edited September 19, 2019 by choir loft