The Seven Heads of Daniel 7 and Rev. 17

[abcdef]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 The Ezek 38 war is history.  Wow! You believe that, while the Evangelical Christian world believes it is future.  Are you sure about the bows and spears?

Ok, The arrows are missiles, the spears are B-2 bombers, the chariots are tanks, and the lightning is laser beams from alien space craft, right? Maybe the starship Enterprise the is beamed back from the future? 

Really?

This is a great example where the hard line literal interpretation group switches sides. 

"Oh, this can't be literal arrows and such, it must be symbolic of events that take place in our modern times."

No, take the bows and arrows literal.

True there is some symbolism, but trying to take the whole 2 chapters and make them future to us is just the opposite of what the literal group holds to.

This is just one example of many that pre-trib needs to distort to make the pre-trib theory work out.

Pre-trib can't tell the difference between what has happened and what has not. In this example placing the past event as future.

  

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Or where the dragon/beast is shown coming out of the abyss, 3 places, Rev 9:1-11 (5th trumpet), Rev 16:10-11 (5th vial), Rev 20:7 Satan/dragon is released from the abyss.

Try putting these 3 scriptures together. Then glean the details from each one into to one event.  Sorry, it does not work that way. it ignores TIME and TIMING.

Rev 9:1-11 (5th trumpet) This trumpet will sound in the first half of the future 70th week of Daniel - WAY before the 1000 years. 

Rev 16:10-11 (5th vial) This vial will be poured out late in the last half of the future 70th week. Before the 1000 years. 

Rev 20:7 Satan/dragon is released from the abyss. This will be after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

In other words, they could have the exact description (which they don't) and because of time could not be the same event.

=============================================

Remember how we were discussing the time line of the Revelation?

I said that the time line was not continual, that it was a broken repeating time line?

They are the same event shown from different perspectives.

-------------------

Remember the Rev 17 time line. See how it shows the past, present, and future from the 96 AD perspective?

The other time lines of the Rev., and the Bible, are based on the same basic time line.

1. The scroll, seals and trumpets, 37 AD until Jesus comes for the kingdom. chs. 4-11 

2. The faithful woman Israel. ch 12 The invasion of Israel by Rome until Jerusalem is restored (1967). 

3. The Roman beasts, the invasion of Israel until Jerusalem is restored. ch 13

4. The resurrection of Jesus until Jerusalem is restored ch 14 (Outside the city).

5. chs 15-16, The Roman beast 70 AD until the end of the planet when Jesus comes for the kingdom.

6. chs 17-18, showing the situation of unfaithful Israel in Roman captivity against the church/kingdom in 96 AD.

7. ch 19, The defeat of the Roman Empire, sea beast, in 476 AD.

8. ch 20, The resurrection of Jesus (first resurrection), until the end of the planet when Jesus comes for the kingdom, the last judgment, death destroyed.

9. chs 21-22, The kingdom in it's eternal state.

 

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

The idea is to find the same events that are shown or indicated to have happened, in different places and put them together. A much better idea would be:  to discover John's chronology so you will know what events happen when.

One's will not find the truth if they cannot tell the difference between what has happened and what has not.

 

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I believe most Evangelical believers today would say the rest of your post is myth. 

1.2 Billion RCC's believe that you are not a Christian, do you want to vote on truth?

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Look at the Middle East, tell me how Jerusalem is not surrounded by the kings of the east (Iran) and Magog right now!

Don't you see what is happening right now in front of you?

Israel will soon be standing alone?

The powers against Israel are growing stronger every minute.

The war has already begun.

All the events that are taking place in the world now will end in the fall of Jerusalem.

============================

Running with the herd is not a defense, when it  comes to the truth.

 

[abcdef]

On 7/7/2020 at 11:50 AM, Sister said:

Greetings abcdef

I know you are trying very hard not to believe all this, but one day if the Lord permit you will see.

Isaiah 60:19   The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Isaiah 60:20   Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

 

On 7/7/2020 at 11:50 AM, Sister said:

The physical sun will still be there during the thousand years, and the moon.

Isa 60:20, When is it, tell me EXACTLY when "the sun shall no more go down," and Exactly when "neither shall the moon withdraw itself"? This refers to the eternal Jerusalem, completely in the spirit, not the millennium period (Rev 21:23, Gen 8:22).

 

 

On 7/7/2020 at 11:50 AM, Sister said:

  He is speaking about the spiritual light, the same light Jesus gave us.  We need the physical sun to see where we are going in the day, and the moon gives light in the night so we can also see, but that's not the light that gives us salvation, only the light that can come from God, when it shines on us, it gives us understanding.

Verse 20 is a repeat and interpretation of what he already said in verse 19.  That this type of light is the light that comes from God when he opens our eyes.  God is speaking in the spirit here.

 

 

If He is speaking in the spirit in these verses 19-20, then the possibility that He is speaking "in the spirit", in the rest of the chapter must also be considered. That is, instead of being a strictly literal understanding, the events shown by the symbols are reflective of the church/kingdom's relationship with God and are not fulfilled in the material world, but in the eternal spiritual world. 

[abcdef]

On 7/7/2020 at 12:32 PM, Sister said:

That's right, we are dwelling in Mt Zion now serving the Lord....but the city is not manifested yet because many are still in unbelief.  They don't believe that this city of righteousness exists.  When Jesus comes he will manifest his city, so that all can see who is living in the light.  That city of Jerusalem will be the world's headquarters.  The nations will come in and learn the ways of the Lord.  Israel's job now is to do the preaching.  They will be preaching Christ, the Kingdom of our Lord to all the nations.  They are put in charge of this now.  They will be respected because all will know that the Lord is with them.  That city is full of blessings where nothing will hurt nor destroy.  Everything in there is physical.  They still eat, they drink, they sleep, they have cattle, they grow food, and all the gold and silver is stored there. All the judges and counselors are in that city.   What many are expecting is angels flying everywhere,  harps playing?  A place that is fully spirit like heaven?  No. God's city on earth is all about his laws, holiness, and righteous judgment.  It is about order, and obedience, not chaos, but well organised full of justice, peace and knowledge of the Lord.  The spirit of the Lord is in there, and in the hearts of his new converts, and anyone else who wish to learn and worship the Lord, may come in and take part of the protection and blessings and work their way towards being a part in the second resurrection.

abcdef, keep asking questions, because it only brings out more truth.

 

 

 

The place that you are describing as the kingdom/church in the mill period, has been happening since the day of Pentecost.

You are in the mill. kingdom now.

The blessings described about the millennium are for those who are in the kingdom. The rest of the world goes on as usual.

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Even if the material world were destroyed and recreated a dozen times, It would always turn out the same. As long as there is flesh there will be sin. Mankind cannot keep the law.

You believe that the spirits of the saints, returning to this material world, will teach the souls, guide the souls to what? Heaven on the material earth? A garden of Eden? 

Wide is the way to destruction, and there are MANY who walk that path, but FEW walk the narrow path to life. The majority will reject Jesus and His Holy Spirit love.

Now I tell you that the spirits of the saints have been here all this time, preaching the gospel, "Behold the Lamb of God,...".

The spirits of the saints who came before us, their words are witness to us and the unbelieving world, "God is love".

Those spirits walk among us when we preach and teach and speak the saving gospel, the Bible.

We are at the end of the mill period, just before the fire from heaven.

[Sister]

25 minutes ago, abcdef said:

If He is speaking in the spirit in these verses 19-20, then the possibility that He is speaking "in the spirit", in the rest of the chapter must also be considered. That is, instead of being a strictly literal understanding, the events shown by the symbols are reflective of the church/kingdom's relationship with God and are not fulfilled in the material world, but in the eternal spiritual world. 

abcdef

He is speaking in the spirit of what's to come.

He is using sun and moon as examples.

The sun gives light for the day so we can see where we are going.

The moon gives light for the night, so we can see in the night.

All are metaphors for what's to come.  In the kingdom there will be light 24/7.  Understanding.

The church's relationship with God today is in real bad shape.  Read the letters to the seven churches.  They cannot understand God's speech for they have all gone their own way.  They expect everything will be given to them, but they like to reject the Word of God.  There will be a major cleansing going on, and only when Christ comes and fulfills all of what he has to do during the thousand years, will the Word of God be straight, and plain so that everyone can understand.

[Sister]

18 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The place that you are describing as the kingdom/church in the mill period, has been happening since the day of Pentecost.

You are in the mill. kingdom now.

The blessings described about the millennium are for those who are in the kingdom. The rest of the world goes on as usual.

---------

If this is the best it gets, with the beast coming and the false prophet, and the persecution of the saints, and much death and wars, then we are in big trouble.  This is not the rest that God promised us, and if you think we are already with Christ ruling over the nations, then see how far you get, when your city is in lockdown, and you cannot go out or do anything.  See what happens when you refuse the Mark of the beast when it comes, and tell me if you have the liberty to tell the nations what to do, and execute judgement given on Christ's behalf.  Look around and see if all kings of the nations come and give glory to God by serving the Lamb of God?  You really have to ask yourself if this is the rest and the peace spoken of?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

Ok, The arrows are missiles, the spears are B-2 bombers, the chariots are tanks, and the lightning is laser beams from alien space craft, right? Maybe the starship Enterprise the is beamed back from the future? 

Really?

This is a great example where the hard line literal interpretation group switches sides. 

"Oh, this can't be literal arrows and such, it must be symbolic of events that take place in our modern times."

No, take the bows and arrows literal.

True there is some symbolism, but trying to take the whole 2 chapters and make them future to us is just the opposite of what the literal group holds to.

This is just one example of many that pre-trib needs to distort to make the pre-trib theory work out.

Pre-trib can't tell the difference between what has happened and what has not. In this example placing the past event as future.

  

 

One's will not find the truth if they cannot tell the difference between what has happened and what has not.

 

1.2 Billion RCC's believe that you are not a Christian, do you want to vote on truth?

-----

Look at the Middle East, tell me how Jerusalem is not surrounded by the kings of the east (Iran) and Magog right now!

Don't you see what is happening right now in front of you?

Israel will soon be standing alone?

The powers against Israel are growing stronger every minute.

The war has already begun.

All the events that are taking place in the world now will end in the fall of Jerusalem.

============================

Running with the herd is not a defense, when it  comes to the truth.

 

It all depends on WHICH HERD!  I think the Evangelical herd is as close or closer on prophecy than any other "herd." Therefore, if you believe a theory that is far out from the norm of this herd, I would check it and RE-check it. 

Actually, a boy named Nathan from Israel went to heaven for a while, and saw the end of this age play out. He too said the sign for the war has already come. He gave a date: I looked at it was the date the "Obama  - Iran" deal was signed into law. 

I agree with you here - but I know Jesus' coming for the rapture is also coming very soon. 

Since you seem sure, TELL US WHEN the Ezekiel 38/39 war came.  I'm listening.

[iamlamad]

20 minutes ago, Sister said:

If this is the best it gets, with the beast coming and the false prophet, and the persecution of the saints, and much death and wars, then we are in big trouble.  This is not the rest that God promised us, and if you think we are already with Christ ruling over the nations, then see how far you get, when your city is in lockdown, and you cannot go out or do anything.  See what happens when you refuse the Mark of the beast when it comes, and tell me if you have the liberty to tell the nations what to do, and execute judgement given on Christ's behalf.  Look around and see if all kings of the nations come and give glory to God by serving the Lamb of God?  You really have to ask yourself if this is the rest and the peace spoken of?

Well, you have a choice: believe you are in the millennial kingdom now, and as you said, this is as good as it gets!  Or, you can believe along with millions of Evangelical believers that the rapture is next, then the 70th week, and THEN the millennial kingdom. 

[abcdef]

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It all depends on WHICH HERD!  I think the Evangelical herd is as close or closer on prophecy than any other "herd." Therefore, if you believe a theory that is far out from the norm of this herd, I would check it and RE-check it. 

Actually, a boy named Nathan from Israel went to heaven for a while, and saw the end of this age play out. He too said the sign for the war has already come. He gave a date: I looked at it was the date the "Obama  - Iran" deal was signed into law. 

I agree with you here - but I know Jesus' coming for the rapture is also coming very soon. 

Since you seem sure, TELL US WHEN the Ezekiel 38/39 war came.  I'm listening.

You are saying that you believe what "evangelicals" believe. There are a thousand variations. But you give I believe what they "believe", as a defense for what you believe.

You might as well believe the RCC, there are more of them.

A pitiful defense of your views.

I suppose that is what the majority of Israel said when Jesus and the kingdom came, "We believe the scribes and pharisees who are the authorities, not some fishermen."

=========================================

It's not the "Obama-Iran" deal.

IT'S THE IRAN-VATICAN TREATY! WHERE THE ROMAN BEAST DECEIVES THE KINGS OF THE EAST INTO ATTACKING JERUSALEM. LOOK THAT UP!

They have already outlined the activities of the RCC in Israel after Jerusalem falls to Iran. The Vatican has already agreed to let Jerusalem fall.

The Vatican hates Israel. Why? Because now there are 2 "Israels". One, the true Israel and one false Israel in the Vatican.

The Vatican says that they are the one true exclusive Israel. That is why they encourage the end of Israel and Jerusalem.

When Hitler signed his agreement with the Vatican, he said that the one thing that they had in common was that they both hated the Jews.

==================================

The proof the the Ezek 38-39 war has already happened is that they use swords and such.

In order to make this future you must make up some kind of idea where they don't use guns and airplanes.

Maybe they forget how to make guns? They forget about airplanes? They suddenly get too stupid to  remember?

Give me a break.

Ok, prove that it didn't happen to Antiochus or the Syrian kings.

Prove that it didn't happen yet.

How is it that they fight with swords in the future? 

[abcdef]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

abcdef

He is speaking in the spirit of what's to come.

He is using sun and moon as examples.

The sun gives light for the day so we can see where we are going.

The moon gives light for the night, so we can see in the night.

All are metaphors for what's to come.  In the kingdom there will be light 24/7.  Understanding.

The church's relationship with God today is in real bad shape.  Read the letters to the seven churches.  They cannot understand God's speech for they have all gone their own way.  They expect everything will be given to them, but they like to reject the Word of God.  There will be a major cleansing going on, and only when Christ comes and fulfills all of what he has to do during the thousand years, will the Word of God be straight, and plain so that everyone can understand.

It's straight and plain right now, the gospel message is clear, repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins, confess the name of Jesus as your savior and remain faithful unto death. How much clearer does it have to be?

Everyone should know that God is love.

Even if it were explained in every detail unsaved people would still choose sin, lust of the eyes, flesh and vain pride.

We choose to live by the words of the Bible, they do not. We are ruled by the kingdom of Jesus, they are not.

-------------------

Some just assume that when Rev 20 describes that Satan cannot deceive the nations, that it means no sin, or less sin. But the devil is in the details, ha, ha.

See that when Satan (the dragon v 2, 7 heads and 10 horns Rev 12) is loosed from the abyss, how are the nations then deceived? 

They are deceived into attacking Jerusalem.

So it is not that there is less sin or death that is the effect of Satan not being able to deceive the nations, but instead, it is only the deception that there is no God and Israel is not God's people.

The power of Satan to destroy Israel was limited (chain), because Israel was scattered among the gentile nations. Now that Jerusalem is restored, they are surrounded by the gentile nations who believe exactly that, that the God of Israel is no God, and that Jesus is not the Son of God.

Please focus on Jerusalem. See that they are surrounded. Events taking place now around the planet are going to end the support that keeps Jerusalem from falling.

Remember that Israel is half the size of the Netherlands, half the size of Belgium.

How small it is. 

The 200 million man army has them surrounded, Iran, Russia, and the rest of the gentile nations. 

 

[abcdef]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

If this is the best it gets, with the beast coming and the false prophet, and the persecution of the saints, and much death and wars, then we are in big trouble.  This is not the rest that God promised us, and if you think we are already with Christ ruling over the nations, then see how far you get, when your city is in lockdown, and you cannot go out or do anything.  See what happens when you refuse the Mark of the beast when it comes, and tell me if you have the liberty to tell the nations what to do, and execute judgement given on Christ's behalf.  Look around and see if all kings of the nations come and give glory to God by serving the Lamb of God?  You really have to ask yourself if this is the rest and the peace spoken of?

There is an eternal rest after the judgment of Rev 20.

We have a rest in Jesus that our sins are forgiven and we can be at peace with God now.

We are still planting, watering, and harvesting, in the work of the kingdom. A glorious work full of joy and tears.

But we are not entered into the final rest yet.

--------------------------

So, what kind of peace and rest do you think that they will have in a future millennium period? 

No work, just eat fruit off trees? Relax on the beach all day? No bugs? No snow shoveling? Food just pops up everywhere? 

Who will do all the work? 

You said that you think the whole planet will be pretty much destroyed, rebuilding it seems like a lot of work, what kind of peace are you thinking about?

Some kind of flesh paradise where you just sit around all day?