Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

S0 you mean for example, if someone decided to add imaginary parentheses so they could move things around at their leisure?  

A parenthesis moves nothing. Stating that the 7th trumpet is at the end of the week CERTAINLY moves something.

[Aimes]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Tell us then, do you see the Two Witnesses' testimony in the first half of the week, or the second half?
When do they show up - or when in relation to the seals / trumpets / vials do that begin?

Where do you see the 7th trumpet in John's timeline?

It is not surprising that you have not found parenthesis marks: most translations missed them in 20:5: a verse where parentheses is absolutely necessary for proper understanding.

Since the 42 months of trampling points to the midpoint as a starting point, then if you add 1260 days of testifying as John lays out in verses 3-13, then by verse 14, it is at the end of the week: 1260 days after the midpoint:  42 months pointing to the midpoint, then add 1260 days and you arrive at the end of the week. Therefore the 7th trumpet is at the end of the week, and then the abomination and fleeing must also be at the end of the week. Then the fleeing must be at the end of the week, and the 42 months of authority starting at the end of the week.

Is this John's intent? If not, how do you solve this?

Brother, with all respect, you've been shown the answers to ALL these questions already. I'd suggest you scroll up and give it a read again. 

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, TheAimes said:

Brother, with all respect, you've been shown the answers to ALL these questions already. I'd suggest you scroll up and give it a read again. 

The question is, was I shown the right answers or the wrong answers?   You think you know; I think I know. So we continue to disagree. The truth of the end times must fit all end times scriptures, not just some of them. 

[Aimes]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The question is, was I shown the right answers or the wrong answers?   You think you know; I think I know. So we continue to disagree. The truth of the end times must fit all end times scriptures, not just some of them. 

I agree, without adding to or changing them when it strikes our fancy.

[dhchristian]

On 11/9/2019 at 9:20 AM, iamlamad said:

You are basing this entire argument on thinking there is only ONE "great tribulation."

That is true I am basing this on that. For me this is definitional. There can only be one great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matt. 24:21) 

Sometimes, you have to stand on the Word of God as written. 

 

[dhchristian]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you not understand that it is the Beast and False Prophet that CAUSES the days of GT?

I Agree, and see their rule in that first half of the week. The great tribulation, the time of abominations etc. 

God Bless (not worth debating further, we will see the truth soon enough.)

[Retrobyter]

On 11/5/2019 at 1:34 AM, wingnut- said:

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you.  The day of the Lord is not from the past.

Shalom, wingnut-.

Then you're going to keep getting things wrong as you try to merge this information with the correctly interpreted information about the future.

There have been MULTIPLE "days of the LORD," times when YHWH has had enough and steps in to correct the situation. The phrase "day of the LORD" is NOT unique! If you have a Bible program that allows you to look up phrases instead of just words, look up this phrase.

Another thing that you will have to consider is the timing of the prophecy in which you find this phrase. Prophets wrote God's prophecies down as God instructed them. Some wrote about their current events and what God was going to do about them as those current events came to a head. Some wrote, as per God's instruction, about the ultimate conclusion of mankind's rebellion.

You should consider WHEN the prophet lived, WHERE he lived, to WHICH group of people was He prophesying, WHO were the king and the leaders at that time, WHAT was happening to God's people at the time, and what God was saying about those events. How was He going to step in and correct the situation? All of God's prophecies were NOT about OUR future. Much of what is written was about the future of His people at THAT time in history.

[wingnut-]

58 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

You should consider WHEN the prophet lived, WHERE he lived, to WHICH group of people was He prophesying, WHO were the king and the leaders at that time, WHAT was happening to God's people at the time, and what God was saying about those events. How was He going to step in and correct the situation? All of God's prophecies were NOT about OUR future. Much of what is written was about the future of His people at THAT time in history.

 

Brother I am not disagreeing with you in regards to any of that, in fact, what we see throughout scripture are in fact dual prophecies that can be applied in that time and also we see them again occurring in the future.  But for the sake of discussion, let's examine some of what is said and put your theory to the test that this is about a swarm of locusts.

 

Joel 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
    a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
    nor will be again after them
    through the years of all generations.

 

Verse 2, a great and powerful people.  How do you turn them into locusts?

 

Joel 2:8 They do not jostle one another;
    each marches in his path;
they burst through the weapons
    and are not halted.

 

What weapons does one use to thwart a locust army?

 

Joel 2:10 The earth quakes before them;
    the heavens tremble.
The sun and the moon are darkened,
    and the stars withdraw their shining.

 

The earth quakes before a swarm of locusts and the heavens tremble?  There have been a lot of locust swarms over the course of history but you would be hard pressed to find these type of comments attributed to a large group of insects.

 

Joel 2:11 The Lord utters his voice
    before his army,
for his camp is exceedingly great;
    he who executes his word is powerful.
For the day of the Lord is great and very awesome;
    who can endure it?

 

The Lord's leading an army of locusts?  This is His camp?

 

Joel 2:30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.

 

This is how it concludes.  Blood, fire, and columns of smoke, from locusts?  The sun goes dark, the moon turns to blood before the aforementioned day of the Lord occurs.  People who call on His name will be saved, from locusts?  There will be survivors, from locusts?  I mean, if it said some olive trees would survive then maybe you would have a case, but it is talking about people.

I have to say, you are the first person I have ever run across that doesn't believe this is an end times prophecy.

 

God bless

 

 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree, and see their rule in that first half of the week. The great tribulation, the time of abominations etc. 

God Bless (not worth debating further, we will see the truth soon enough.)

In other words, you don't care WHERE in the book John wrote things  -you just rearrange to fit your theory.  I am beginning to understand.

I will add, as I usually do, any theory that requires rearranging John's God given chronology will be proven wrong.

The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, as proven by the fleeing in 12:6. Therefore, EVERY event after the midpoint (chapters 12 on) are in the last half of the week. It is so simple!  In other words, John saw the Beast rise AFTER the midpoint. And that makes perfect sense: the man of sin will enter the temple, which event with stop the daily sacrifices, (See Dan. 9:27) which event divides the week.  Satan is cast down and immediately possesses the man of sin who becomes the Beast - and they John saw him rise up. Even before John saw those, those that know their scripture will KNOW he is now the Beast of Revelation.

Then soon after the False Prophet will show up, as chapter 13 details, the image will be built, the mark created, and they they begin to enforce their false worship - causing the days of GT. John saw the beheaded BEGIN to show up in chapter 15. I wonder, what is it about John's chronology that you don't like?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, dhchristian said:

That is true I am basing this on that. For me this is definitional. There can only be one great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matt. 24:21) 

Sometimes, you have to stand on the Word of God as written. 

 

Did you notice? You had to add more words to "great tribulation" to get to the days Jesus talked about. Those two words were not enough for Jesus, so He added more words, to set those days of GT off from OTHER days of GT.

Question: what was the intent of the author in mentioning "GT" for the church at Thyratira?  God was speaking to people alive in John's day. Was God saying if they did not repent He would keep them alive for the GT greater than all others - or was He only saying HE, God, could create GT any time He chose?