Should Christians Obey Torah?

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

I am sorry but this is false teaching. You are opposing the gospel. We are commanded to love one another through grace. The torah condemns.  The blood of jesus justified us. And if we are justified then we are more then just forgiven.  We are in the same rights as Jesus. We will enter through the gates into the city of God freely. 

"I am sorry but this is false teaching."

Actually, Torah is truth (Ps.119:142) and we should REJOICE in truth (1Cor.13:6), not oppose it.

 

"You are opposing the gospel. "

Actually, we are saved by the gospel Paul preached (1Cor.15:2).

And this Gospel is the word of faith preached by Paul (Rom.10:8).

And Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) is the very substance of the word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

So, I'm sticking very close to the Bible on this....it's not just my opinion.

 

"We are commanded to love one another through grace."

And love requires Torah-obedience (1Jn.5:3).

Love requires Torah-obedience (Dt. 6:5,25).

Love requires obedience to Jesus (Jn.14:15) who requires Torah (Mt.5:19).

And grace extends to the humble (Jas.4:6); and humble people obey Torah (Ex.33:13;Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3).

And Moses responded to God's grace (Ex.33:13) by seeking God's WAYS (Ex.33:13)...which, of course, became codified in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).

So, love and grace and Torah all to TOGETHER.

 

"The torah condemns.  "

Sure...if you disobey! (Dt.30:11-15).

But Jesus expect you to LIVE (Mt.4:4) because you OBEY (Dt. 8:3;30:11-15;32:47;Lk.10:25-28).

 

"The blood of jesus justified us."

Yes! (Rom.5:9) and also by LAW (Rom.2:13) and GRACE (Rom.3:24) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) and the Spirit (1Cor.6:11).

ALL TOGETHER.

We don't just "cherry-pick".

We uphold ALL Scripture (2Ti.3:16).

 

"And if we are justified then we are more then just forgiven.  "

Yes!  We have MANY great blessings, being justified in Christ!

 

"We are in the same rights as Jesus. We will enter through the gates into the city of God freely. "

Looking forward to it, brother!

blessings...

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

And you cannot be sanctified by the law. We are sanctified by the holy spirit. Put on the new man. Created in the likeness of the creator in righteousness. The just shall live by faith.

"And you cannot be sanctified by the law"

Actually, we are sanctified by the truth of God's word (Jn.17:17)....and God's word includes TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.)

So, we ARE sanctified (set apart) as we grow in faithful obedience to Torah.

 

And yes, we are sanctified by the Spirit (Rom.15:16) who testifies we should obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16).

That Spirit who sanctifies us also leads us to obey ALL Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27).

The Spirit who sanctifies us also leads us to "mortify the flesh" (Rom.8:13); the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7); thus, the Spirit leads us to OBEY (not disobey!) Torah.

The Spirit who sanctifies us also leads us to keep Torah "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

 

"Put on the new man. "

The ONE NEW MAN (Eph.2:15) is NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12), and Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4).

The ONE NEW MAN (Eph.2:15) is NOT excluded from the covenants (Eph.2:12) which, of course, are given as Torah (e.g., Jer.31:33).  Thus, the one new man OBEYS Torah.

 

"Created in the likeness of the creator in righteousness. "

And Torah-obedience exhibits the righteousness we do (Dt.6:25).  And Jesus APPLIES Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37).

And Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12), and we should DO righteousness (1Jn.2:29;3:7,10;Mt.5:20).

 

"The just shall live by faith."

Yes!  That's Paul quoting "אֱמוּנָה" in Hab. 2:4.  And what is this way of "אֱמוּנָה" required by Paul?  Answer:  TORAH!  (see "אֱמוּנָה" in Ps.119:30,86,138 for proof).

Just like Abraham likewise had FAITHFUL TRUST (Ge.15:6) while also OBEYING GOD'S LAWS (Ge.26:5).

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

After all, Jesus said faith is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).

Torah REQUIRES faith (Dt.18:15;32:20).

They go TOGETHER.

 

blessings...

 

[Alive]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

"THere is no mixing of the principle of law with the principle of grace."

Then you haven't read Ex. 33:13, my friend.

 

Moses finds GRACE (Heb. "חֵן", Greek LXX "χάρις", Ex. 33:13).  By the way, that's the SAME GRACE ("χάρις") as in Eph. 2:8.  SAME EXACT WORD!

And what does Moses do in response to God's grace?

Answer: Moses seeks to know God's WAYS (Ex.33:13).

And WHERE do we find God's ways?

Answer: The written Torah of Moses! (1K.2:3).

CONCLUSION: LAW AND GRACE GO TOGETHER!

 

 

You just don't understand His teachings about Torah (yet.....)

 

blessings...

 

Sorry that you don't understand the principles of law and grace in addition to law and grace itself.

I have explained some of this in another thread, just this morning.

Are you aware the Christ was present in the beginning and on through the history from Abraham on through the following history of Israel--Moses, the Judges and Prophets? That He was present as scriptures from OT and NT verify?

In the same way, Grace was present. This does not help your argument that the principle of Law and the principle of Grace are compatible.

I could quote large portions of both Romans and Galatians and others, to show your fallacy. I won't but I will mention just one that you quoted in your post above.

You used the following to say that the law and grace are compatible..........notice the part I made red at the end of v. 13

Rom. 2:12   For all who have sinned ^1awithout the Law will also perish ¹without the Law, and all who have sinned ²under the Law will be judged ³by the Law; ¹³ for it is ^anot the hearers ¹of the Law who are ²just before God, but the doers ¹of the Law will be justified.

The problem with this is that only Jesus Christ was successful at keeping the law at all times. This is why He came. To accomplish what we could not do. And in so doing become that spotless sacrifice for you and I.

Now note this portion.....

and all who have sinned ²under the Law will be judged ³by the Law;

The law is an inflexible principle as it was designed to show God's perfection and at the same time man's imperfection as it relates to any measure of morality and good as defined by God for man. If you are under the law, than you are judged by it. You sin and you die.

Grace rescued us from this predicament...in this way, the two principles are incompatible.

Law is good--the 'principle' of law as it works in and for man produces death. Grace is unmerited favor and bypasses and does away with the laws awful indictment on a sinful man.

Man needed Grace both before and after the Law does/did it's work. God provides that for us in Christ--the same yesterday, today and forever.

Yesterday in Abraham's time, in Mose's time (yesterday), in the Church age (today) and in the ages to come (tomorrow).

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Alive

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Why do you refuse to answer my simple question......do you not know that your non-reply speaks volumes? By contrast, I will answer anything you got......without hesitation...

Your “ last post” is erroneous as is possible .Read Galations before you put it forward as a debating point. The Legalists Of Paul’s day did not say to do away with Faith in Christ.Belief in Christ was acknowledged as necessary — it just wasn’t sufficient to save— one had to be circumcised and obey the Laws Of Moses to get Saved.They added to the Gospel-they never said to abandon Faith.Its the same old Hog-Wash...... “ Jesus Saves.......BUT!”  

I will inquire one more time.....can one be saved by believing in “ NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD” ? 

"The Legalists Of Paul’s day did not say to do away with Faith in Christ."

Hi there!

I'd like to explore this....it's pretty interesting...

 

I've assumed that Gal. 5:4-5 proves that Paul is comparing two groups:

Group #1: Those "seeking to be justified by law" (Gal.5:4)

Group #2: Those who have "faith" (Gal.5:5)

 

So, it's clear that Group #1 does NOT have the faith of Gal. 5:5....

Thus, Group #1 does NOT have proper faith....

But, "faith in Christ" IS proper.

Thus, it follows that Group #1 does NOT have faith in Christ.

 

If I'm right, then it's incorrect to claim that the legalists of Gal. 5 "did not say to do away with Faith in Christ".

Agreed?

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

Do you keep Paul's words? He got it from Jesus. If you want to live by the law you have to keep it perfect. Good luck .

Hi there!

Yes, I seek to keep Paul's words...which require that ALL Scripture (thus ALL Torah) correct, and rebuke, and train your behavior in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

 

"He got it from Jesus."

Yes, Jesus also requires all Torah (Mt.5:19;23:2-3,23).

 

"If you want to live by the law you have to keep it perfect. Good luck ."

We don't need "luck"!  Jesus said perfection (Mt.5:48) is easy! (Mt.11:30).

Remember, PERFECT does not mean SINLESS....rather, Mt. 5:48 is simply Jesus quoting Dt. 18:13...and the Torah never presumed that the Israelites would be sinless.....of course.

It's NOT too hard to obey Torah (Dt.30:11)....Moses was not lying.

Luke said it's NOT to hard to obey ALL TORAH (Lk.1:6).

Thus, Paul continues to serve Torah (Rom.7:25), even requiring the Gentile-inclusive Corinthian congregation to likewise keep God's commands (1Cor.7:19) which, of course, are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3).

 

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

18 hours ago, Willa said:

1Ti 1:8  But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,  1Ti 1:9  knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for man slayers,  1Ti 1:10  for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,  1Ti 1:11  according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Gal 5:4  You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

God writes the law on our hearts when we are born again.  So no, we don't have to obey the law.  We just want to obey it.  Christ was the fulfillment of the law on our behalf so we are not in bondage to it. 

Hello Willa!

Thanks for joining our spirited conversation!

And you're right....the law is good (Rom.7:12)...and we should be good.....so that's a good reason to do obey Torah.

And yes, the PROHIBITIVE LAWS (e.g., don't murder, don't lie, etc.) are not for RIGHTEOUS people....because RIGHTEOUS people are already obeying all Torah! (Dt. 6:25).

Good point.

 

And yes, we uphold Paul's glorious gospel which he preached, and by which we are saved (1Cor.15:2).

And this Gospel is the word of faith preached by Paul (Rom.10:8).

And TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) is the very substance of that word of faith which Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

So yes, we uphold Paul's glorious gospel of FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE in Christ whose blood, alone, purifies us from all sin (1Jn.1:7).

 

And  yes, those who seek justification by law without faith have fallen from grace (Gal.5:4).

EXCELLENT point.

That's why Paul says we are justified by law (Rom.2:13) and faith (Rom.5:1)...TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"God writes the law on our hearts when we are born again.  So no, we don't have to obey the law.  We just want to obey it. "

Very true, sister!  We WANT to obey Torah (Jer.31:33) because it passes directly into the New Covenant (Heb.8:10) in which we partake, by virtue of Christ's blood (Lk.22:20).

 

"Christ was the fulfillment of the law on our behalf so we are not in bondage to it. "

Exactly.  We are not in bondage to the law of sinful disobedience (Dt.30:11-15).

Rather, we are free to be blessed in OBEDIENCE to Torah (Dt.30:11-15) and enjoy LIFE (Mt.4:4 citing Dt. 8:3 referring to Torah;Dt.32:47).

 

blessings....

 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by BibleGuy
correction WILLA, not WILL (sorry!)

[Willa]

10 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom @Willa

It's not a great subject to start launching Scriptures with to be honest, as it will just go back and forth forever.

Although, with your post in mind, do you REALLY think we are saying "we are justified by law!" Do you really think that's what we are saying? Really? 

Do you really think that we are saying "Torah obedience is necessary, Grace is not enough!" Do you honestly think we are saying that?

If not, why post such a thing?  Isn't it only going to cause provocation?

I, for one, have never said that or implied.  In fact, you will see in my posts I say the opposite. 

Now, maybe someone else here said that (although I doubt it) but if they did, quote them and ask about it - seeking to understand and correct them gently and in love.  But just posting verses to imply we are suggesting justification by Law?  Hmm, it's not an ideal way to bring peaceful, mature debate. 

Or what then, should I perhaps put words in your mouth and say something provocative such as "You people reckon you can sin as much as you want because you are under grace!"  No, I don't say that.  Because I understand you position, respect it and see it from your point of view clearly.   But even if I didn't understand your position - would the wisest thing for me to do is post something provocative in an already heated thread?  Would that be your advice to another?

I hope you understand where I'm coming from and I don't mean to say anything rude to you sister.  It's just that people need to chill, read each other's words carefully or not at all.  Because nothing is going to make this thread worse than implying people are falling from grace or become estranged from Christ.  That's just not fair. We need peace to discuss this matter, or otherwise there are plenty of other excellent posts to enjoy on here. 

Love & Shalom

I do appreciate your heart of desiring peace.  I had not read through the whole thread but only attempted to answer the OP.    However the bad teaching I received after the Holy Spirit first convicted me and led me was exactly this.  It was a works based salvation like the song says: Making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty and nice".  So I tried to establish my own righteousness which was the root cause of my lack of growth, lack of love, and subsequent backsliding.  So I know the truth in the book of Galatians because I lived it.  

 Rom 10:2  For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.  Rom 10:3  For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 

You claim that the verses I previously quoted are out of context.  They are in perfect context historically for many Jews who had converted to Christ were returning to Judaism.  I had not grown in my understanding of Scripture to fully comprehend that Christ was my sin sacrifice.  He had taken my sin upon Himself, and my salvation rested solely on faith in Him.   Christ in me fulfilled the law and in 1970 gave me the new heart with the law written on it.  It was then that  I submitted and surrendered to Christ as my Lord and Master, was then filled with the Holy Spirit and again started walking in the Spirit.  Gal 5:18  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.  I was not under bondage to the law but as a born again child of God the law was fulfilled as Christ in me reached out to others with His love.  I am sorry if this confuses anyone or offends them.  

 

[Alive]

8 minutes ago, Willa said:

I do appreciate your heart of desiring peace.  I had not read through the whole thread but only attempted to answer the OP.    However the bad teaching I received after the Holy Spirit first convicted me and led me was exactly this.  It was a works based salvation like the song says: Making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty and nice".  So I tried to establish my own righteousness which was the root cause of my lack of growth, lack of love, and subsequent backsliding.  So I know the truth in the book of Galatians because I lived it.  

 Rom 10:2  For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.  Rom 10:3  For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 

You claim that the verses I previously quoted are out of context.  They are in perfect context historically for many Jews who had converted to Christ were returning to Judaism.  I had not grown in my understanding of Scripture to fully comprehend that Christ was my sin sacrifice.  He had taken my sin upon Himself, and my salvation rested solely on faith in Him.   Christ in me fulfilled the law and in 1970 gave me the new heart with the law written on it.  It was then that  I submitted and surrendered to Christ as my Lord and Master, was then filled with the Holy Spirit and again started walking in the Spirit.  Gal 5:18  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.  I was not under bondage to the law but as a born again child of God the law was fulfilled as Christ in me reached out to others with His love.  I am sorry if this confuses anyone or offends them.  

 

Willa---your experience, is the same for a great many sons. I rejoice for you.

The truth of these things is growing in hearts all across this planet, as the true gospel that was taught to the early church is being resurrected by God. Even though there has been a dark time for centuries for far too many that name Him as Lord, there has always existed those pockets of simple saints that have held the torch high as a testament of the Glory of God in Christ Jesus.

The Church indeed continues to grow up into Him who is the all in all. The reality of the fullness is in Heaven, In Christ--yet there is a faithful testimony in the earth.

God bless you, sister.

[BibleGuy]

56 minutes ago, Alive said:

Sorry that you don't understand the principles of law and grace in addition to law and grace itself.

I have explained some of this in another thread, just this morning.

Are you aware the Christ was present in the beginning and on through the history from Abraham on through the following history of Israel--Moses, the Judges and Prophets? That He was present as scriptures from OT and NT verify?

In the same way, Grace was present. This does not help your argument that the principle of Law and the principle of Grace are compatible.

I could quote large portions of both Romans and Galatians and others, to show your fallacy. I won't but I will mention just one that you quoted in your post above.

You used the following to say that the law and grace are compatible..........notice the part I made red at the end of v. 13

Rom. 2:12   For all who have sinned ^1awithout the Law will also perish ¹without the Law, and all who have sinned ²under the Law will be judged ³by the Law; ¹³ for it is ^anot the hearers ¹of the Law who are ²just before God, but the doers ¹of the Law will be justified.

The problem with this is that only Jesus Christ was successful at keeping the law at all times. This is why He came. To accomplish what we could not do. And in so doing become that spotless sacrifice for you and I.

Now note this portion.....

and all who have sinned ²under the Law will be judged ³by the Law;

The law is an inflexible principle as it was designed to show God's perfection and at the same time man's imperfection as it relates to any measure of morality and good as defined by God for man. If you are under the law, than you are judged by it. You sin and you die.

Grace rescued us from this predicament...in this way, the two principles are incompatible.

Law is good--the 'principle' of law as it works in and for man produces death. Grace is unmerited favor and bypasses and does away with the laws awful indictment on a sinful man.

Man needed Grace both before and after the Law does/did it's work. God provides that for us in Christ--the same yesterday, today and forever.

Yesterday in Abraham's time, in Mose's time (yesterday), in the Church age (today) and in the ages to come (tomorrow).

 

Hi there!

Thanks for answering.....

But I don't see you addressing my comments on Ex. 33:13....

Thus, I maintain that Ex. 33:13 confirms that GRACE and TORAH properly go TOGETHER, as I showed you in the previous post.

Moreover, Rom. 2:13 and Rom. 3:24 jointly confirms that PAUL agrees that we are justified by Torah and Grace, TOGETHER.

 

"Are you aware the Christ was present in the beginning and on through the history from Abraham on through the following history of Israel--Moses, the Judges and Prophets? That He was present as scriptures from OT and NT verify?"

Agreed.

 

"In the same way, Grace was present. This does not help your argument that the principle of Law and the principle of Grace are compatible."

Why not?  Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever....SAME GRACE and SAME LAW....then and now (Heb.13:8).

 

"I could quote large portions of both Romans and Galatians and others, to show your fallacy. "

Please do so....otherwise, I have no choice but to dismiss this comment as a mere assertion (without Biblical support).

 

"The problem with this is that only Jesus Christ was successful at keeping the law at all times. "

Careful!  Moses said it is NOT too difficult to obey Torah (Dt.30:11).

Luke said Elizabeth and Zacharias obeyed ALL Torah (Lk.1:6).

Sure, only Jesus kept the law SINLESSLY....(Heb.4:15)

But Jesus said it's EASY (Mt.11:30) for us to keep all Torah (Mt.5:19) perfectly (Mt.5:48).

 

"This is why He came. To accomplish what we could not do. And in so doing become that spotless sacrifice for you and I."

Yes.

 

"If you are under the law, than you are judged by it. You sin and you die."

Not true.  David and Moses and many other saints of that era are surely ALIVE in Christ....not dead.

We Christians are ALSO judged by Torah (Jas.2:12)...but we do not die...we LIVE in Christ!

You only DIE if you DISOBEY (Dt. 30:11-15).....but we are NOT under the law of disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15;Rom.8:2).

We are under the law of OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47).

Jesus expects us to OBEY and LIVE (Mt.4:4).

 

"Grace rescued us from this predicament...in this way, the two principles are incompatible."

Sure....God rescued us....but grace and law are not incompatible!

God graciously saves us (Ex.33:13) so that we may remain in God's grace as we seek to know Him and His WAYS (Ex.33:13) which are found in the Torah of Moses (1K.2:3).

Same then as now.

We walk in grace AND Torah, together.

 

"the 'principle' of law as it works in and for man produces death. "

ONLY if you don't have faith!  We who have FAITH walk in Torah-obedient LIFE (Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47), not death!

 

So, I'm not still not "getting" your point of view very well....

Can you try again?

Maybe quote some more of those passages which you think supports your viewpoint?

Thanks!

blessings....

 

[Alive]

No thank you. I think this has been enough.

I won't continue to discuss this with you or the others that promote the same doctrine.

Perhaps, I have been foolish.

I hope the best for you and the others.