Should Christians Obey Torah?

[Wayne222]

4 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

True!  But JUSTIFICATION is also by FAITH (Rom.5:1) and by TORAH (Rom.2:13) ALL together.....

So let's not disregard the Torah!

blessings...

 

The law is not of faith. By the law no one will be justified.  You cannot mix grace and law. You are distorting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Wayne222]

20 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!  Thanks for sharing your opinion....but you gave no Scripture to support your position....

And you did NOT address the many Scriptures I cited in support of my position.....

Do you have any BIBLICAL evidence to support your opinion?

Yes, you cited Acts....but Acts merely proves that GENTILES need not obey TORAH+CIRCUMCISION to be SAVED (Gr. " σῴζω ", Ac. 15:1,11).

The context of Acts 15 is SALVATION, not SANCTIFICATION.

That SAME PAUL (present in Ac. 15) applies ALL Torah to you (2Ti.3:16).

And does Ac. 15 cancel Jesus?  Surely not!  Jesus says we are sanctified by truth (Jn.17:17)...and TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142)...thus we are sanctified in growing faithful obedience to Torah.

After all, Jesus DOES require ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20)...right?

"Why do you want to put others under the law ? "

WHICH law?  There are two Torahs (Dt.30:11-15)...

TORAH #1  The law of disobedience and death (which does NOT apply to us, Rom.8:2)

TORAH #2 The law of obedience and life (which DOES apply! Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

Jesus expects us to obey and LIVE (Mt.4:4).

 

"why are you testing God by putting a yoke on the neck of the  disciples."

Careful!  The yoke of Ac. 15 is an UNBIBLICAL yoke.....after all, the Bible does NOT require TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as proof of Gentile salvation.....THAT is why the apostles opposed it.

And THAT is why Paul opposes adult circumcision, but still requires ALL TORAH (1Cor.7:19).....because Torah only requires INFANT circumcision (Lev.12:3), not adult Gentile circumcision.

 

Remember, Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) and PERFECTION (Mt.5:48), and Jesus said it's EASY! (Mt.11:30).

CONCLUSION:  The yoke of TORAH required by Jesus is EASY!

Thank you....

blessings....

 

 

[Wayne222]

The just shall live by faith. The law is not of faith. We are to keep the commandments of the new testament.  Not the laws of the old testaments. Do you keep the seventh day sabbath ? 

[Blood Bought 1953]

45 minutes ago, Tampered With said:

John 14:15 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

¹⁵ If you [really] love Me, you will keep (obey) My commands.

 

Notice that Jesus never said to keep the Commandments Of Moses ( 613 of them ). Jesus left us with only two commands—Believe and Love.

[Blood Bought 1953]

I am too preoccupied enjoying the current Age Of Grace to worry about the Tribulation and the Millenium Periods . I believe that there is so much mystery in regard to those times , so much speculation ,despite the considerable information that has been given to us , that I will let others debate it . I just ain’t interested.All I Do is Rest In the Gospel Of Grace and try to get others to join me.Anything beyond that, I usually leave to others.

[Blood Bought 1953]

You took my indifference to End Times Scripture as a “ browbeating” . I didn’t even offer up an argument.....Wow....

[saved34]

If by Torah you mean the Law, then no. The Law is righteous and good but it is not designed to make us righteous. Our practical righteousness comes from keeping in step with the Holy Spirit, not from a fleshly observance of the Law. Observing the Law is not of faith so it will never be accepted by God.

Gal 3:12  The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

It is an old covenant or way in which God dealt with man until our savior Jesus Christ came and met all it’s requirements on our behalf and ushered in this age or Covenant of grace in his own blood. We are now under the New Testament which is superior in every way imaginable. 

[Blood Bought 1953]

That’s great .... I encourage your discussion and I hope everybody learns from it.....it’s just not my thing....the only point I would make , getting back to the original question about Christians Obeying the Torah......The answer is “ NO”. We are “ new creatures” with “new hearts”. The Indwelling Holy Spirit is what we Trust now to guide us.Resting in  the Grace of  the Gospel, knowing all of our sins are forgiven will stir up Love which accomplishes more obedience by accident , than trying to obey rules on purpose could ever do.That’s why God has extended this amazing Grace to all Believers .He knows it works.Its all about Love....not rule-keeping .God Bless.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Blood Bought 1953

[johnthebaptist]

On 11/6/2019 at 11:45 AM, BibleGuy said:

Hello all....I know we have different opinions among us....but I'd like to share my point of view, if that's ok....if I'm wrong, please correct me.

Or, maybe we should chat about this in ongoing detail in a "soapbox" discussion?

Anyway, here's my thesis:  CHRISTIANS SHOULD GROW IN FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE TO OBSERVABLE TORAH PORTIONS

Here's a brief summary of my supporting evidence:

1. God commands Torah (Dt.1:3;5:27-33).  We should obey God.

2. Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;22:37;23:2-3,23).  We should obey Jesus.

3. The Spirit testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21).  We should walk in the Spirit.

4. Moses requires Torah (just read Exodus 20 through the rest of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) for Israel.

5. The prophets (e.g., Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.) require Torah.  We should obey the prophets.

6. The Psalms require Torah (e.g., Ps. 1;19;119;etc.)  We should obey the Psalms.

7. The Proverbs require Torah (e.g., Pr. 28:4,7,9).  We should obey the Proverbs.

8. Paul requires Torah (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

9. John requires Torah (1Jn.2:3;5:3).

10. Stephen requires Torah (Ac.6:10-15).

11. Peter requires Torah (citing Lev. 11 at 1Pe.1:16)

12. Hebrews requires Torah (Heb.8:10;10:16).

13. Revelation confirms Torah is properly OBEYED (Rev.12:17;14:12).

14. Torah-disobedience is BAD (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).

15. Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  We should be good.

16. Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  We should be holy.

17. Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  We should do righteousness.

18. Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  We should be spiritual.

19. Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:20).  We should not sin, so we should OBEY Torah.

20. The New Covenant is given as Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

21. The CHURCH is ISRAEL (Ac.7:38;Dt. 4:10), so Christians are ISRAELITES (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8;Eph.2:12;Rom.9:24-26;11), and Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

22. We will inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) in conjunction with 100% obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

23. Objections to my thesis do not provide a better explanation of all this available evidence.

 

Ok...that's good enough to get started....

Let's study together and share what we've learned!

blessings in Christ....

 

Whether we should or not, most of us don't. I would use the argument that the Lord was talking to the Jews, not Christians. Still, facts are facts, and if the Lord told the Jews that something was an abomination, then it's an abomination no matter what the audience. And of course there is a wealth of wisdom given to us in the Torah.

[BibleGuy]

On 11/8/2019 at 4:40 PM, Wayne222 said:

The law is not of faith. By the law no one will be justified.  You cannot mix grace and law. You are distorting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

"The law is not of faith"

Of COURSE faithless law is not of faith!

But not all law-obedience is FAITHLESS.....

Remember?  Abraham was of FAITH (Ge.15:6), but he also obeyed LAW (Ge.26:5).

BOTH....TOGETHER.

CONCLUSION:  THE LAW is of FAITH (Dt.32:20;Mt.23:23;Ps.119:30,86,138).

That's why Paul says faithful Torah-obedience (i.e., Dt. 30:14) IS the very word of faith which Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 as the very substance of the faith in Rom.10:8).

After all, Paul says we are justified by faith (Rom.5:1) AND Torah (Rom.2:13) TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

"You cannot mix grace and law"

OOPS!  We see GRACE in Ex.33:13....where Moses responds to that grace by doing what?  SEEKING GOD'S WAYS (i.e., TORAH, given 1Ki.2:3).

"You are distorting the gospel of Jesus Christ"

JESUS requires all Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34).

In fact, Jesus said Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

After all, if you obey Torah, then you obey Dt. 18:15 which requires obedience to Jesus, which requires faith in HIM and obedience to His teachings....and Jesus teaches TORAH (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

Jesus IS the Torah (Jn.1:14)....so it makes no sense to disobey it....

Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant (Lk.22:20) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

I think I'm quite Biblical, my friend....

blessings....

 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by BibleGuy