Should Christians Obey Torah?

[johnthebaptist]

1 minute ago, Roar said:

Do you have the New Testament memorized verse by verse?

No, but I know the commandments.

[BibleGuy]

10 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

I do not oppose the Torah .Neither do I oppose Hammurabi’s Code or The Boy Scout’s Code.One should go for wisdom and good rules wherever they can find them.No collections of wisdom and rules are gonna save anybody .The Torah leads to the Savior .That is it’s main purpose and value.The Law artificially points to and tries to control behavior that comes naturally to a New Heart that is motivated by Love.Paul said that the Law was “ weak” in that it has no power to save—- why not go to where the Power is at — the Gospel!Paul also said that the Law was good. IF one knows how to use it. The Law served its purpose in my life......it shut me up and showed me I had to have a Savior.Im done with it .I let the Holy Spirit guide me now. I obey more laws by accident now than I ever did trying to live by a Code.

"No collections of wisdom and rules are gonna save anybody ."

Jesus said Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of ETERNAL LIFE (Lk.10:25-28).

 

"The Torah leads to the Savior "

True (Dt. 18:15).

And the Savior points right back to the Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28;etc.)

 

"That is it’s main purpose and value."
Well....there are MANY purposes!

Remember?

 Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  Be good...so obey Torah!

Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  Be holy...so OBEY Torah!

Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  DO righteousness.....so OBEY Torah!

Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  BE Spiritual.  So obey Torah!

Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  So STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH!

The New Covenant is given as Torah (Jer.31:33)...so should we disobey that very Torah?  Of course not!

 

"The Law artificially points to and tries to control behavior that comes naturally to a New Heart that is motivated by Love."

Well ok....but LOVE requires TORAH-OBEDIENCE (1Jn.5:3;Jn.14;15;Mt.5:19;Dt.6:5,25).

 

"Paul said that the Law was “ weak” in that it has no power to save"

Sure...law WITHOUT FAITH is rather useless....

That's why Paul require Both!

We are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER....

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (Jas. 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

" why not go to where the Power is at — the Gospel!"

Great!  The Gospel is the word of faith preached by Paul....

Hey what's this?  TORAH (Dt.30:14) is the very word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"Paul also said that the Law was good. IF one knows how to use it."

It's pretty simple:  Do you OBEY or DISOBEY?

(Hint:  Torah-disobedience is REALLY bad....Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42)

So obey!

 

"The Law served its purpose in my life......it shut me up and showed me I had to have a Savior.Im done with it .I let the Holy Spirit guide me now."

OOPS!  That very Spirit leads you to OPPOSE the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13)...thus the Spirit leads you to OBEY Torah!

Again, the Spirit testifies you should OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16).

Again, the Spirit leads us to obey ALL TORAH ORDINANCES (Eze.36:27).

In the New Covenant, the Spirit leads us to obey Torah "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited by Paul at Rom.11:26-27).

 

" I obey more laws by accident now than I ever did trying to live by a Code."

well....that's good!

But you won't accidentally obey the SMALLEST of Torah commands (Mt.5:19) unless you actually study Torah and grow in faithful obedience to it....

blessings....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

18 minutes ago, Roar said:

Thanks, BibleGuy for your well thought out and presented posts!!! 

Glad we're on the same page!

blessings to you too....

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

53 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

" nobody except Jesus can keep it."

Not true.  Moses said it is NOT too difficult (Dt. 30:11).

Luke said it's NOT too hard to obey ALL Torah (Lk.1:6).

Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19), and He said it's easy! (Mt.11:30).

blessings...

 

Peter and Paul referred to it as an impossible system that neither they nor their Fathers could keep. It was given to “ shut the mouths” of those who thought they could be justified before God By keeping . “ By The Law NO MAN will be justified” .  The Righteous ( justified people) shall LIVE by FAITH.

Anybody out there married? Do you go by a list of rules to have a happy marriage ? How many times a day do you have to kiss her....how many times a day do you have to help her.....how many times a day do you compliment her.....I hope not.....there is a better way.......You and your wife could just Love each other and let things happen naturally.Understand? Good. That’s the relationship God wants with “ HIS” wife- the Church. “Believe and Love”—— Jesus could have left us with any commands that He wanted to- why didn't He say and reveal through Paul or Peter or John AFTER His Resurrection That we must obey Torah ? He didn’t. “ Believe and Love “ was all He left us with.

[BibleGuy]

16 minutes ago, johnthebaptist said:

I read there are 613 commandments, laws, decrees, statutes, and ordinances in the Bible. Do you have them memorized?

613 is the wrong number....Dt. 4:15 did not even make the list!

I am categorizing them all........but I doubt I'll get 613 for a total count.....

I'm not so sure I even have the 10 commandments memorized in order....but if you cite any one, then I'd immediately know it!  You could say it's written upon my heart....

blessings....

 

[Coliseum]

2 minutes ago, Roar said:

No one is saying you have to follow anything LEGALISTICALLY and I question your assertion “ Believe and Love “ was all He left us with as there is SO MUCH MORE IN BIBLE SCRIPTURE as has been quoted in all the preceding posts! 

If you do not have to follow them legalistically, how else must one have to follow them? That's the point. If you have to follow them at all, you are doing so legalistically. Two commandments encompass them all. "Love the Lord with all your heart....and love your neighbor..." And why? Not because we have to, but because God already did that for us: we desire to because He showed us a better way: believe and love. That is the essence of the Gospel, which Paul said we would be judged by. Anyone who preaches a different gospel is accursed. Is not that what he said? Grace supersedes the Law; if not, how many animals do you sacrifice daily for your sins? Jesus already did that once, for all. 

[BibleGuy]

2 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Peter and Paul referred to it as an impossible system that neither they nor their Fathers could keep. It was given to “ shut the mouths” of those who thought they could be justified before God By keeping . “ By The Law NO MAN will be justified” .  The Righteous ( justified people) shall LIVE by FAITH.

Anybody out there married? Do you go by a list of rules to have a happy marriage ? How many times a day do you have to kiss her....how many times a day do you have to help her.....how many times a day do you compliment her.....I hope not.....there is a better way.......You and your wife could just Love each other and let things happen naturally.Understand? Good. That’s the relationship God wants with “ HIS” wife- the Church. “Believe and Love”—— Jesus could have left us with any commands that He wanted to- why didn't He say and reveal through Paul or Peter or John AFTER His Resurrection That we must obey Torah ? He didn’t. “ Believe and Love “ was all He left us with.

" an impossible system that neither they nor their Fathers could keep."

You're talking about the ANTI-TORAH yoke mentioned in Ac.15.

That's not Torah.

The yoke that JESUS gives us is easy (Mt.11:30), because obeying ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19) is easy!  It's NOT too difficult (Dt.30:11).  Moses was not lying.

The ANTI-TORAH yoke of Ac. 15 was the Pharisees who required TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as a condition of acceptance of Gentiles as being SAVED.

Torah does NOT require this anti-Torah yoke.

Torah merely requires that we obey TORAH!

I don't see adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision as a Torah requirement.

Paul evidently agrees, applying ALL TORAH to Gentiles (1Cor.7:19) while excluding adult-circumcision as a requirement (because Torah does not even require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision).

 

"It was given to “ shut the mouths” of those who thought they could be justified before God By keeping . "

Careful!  Paul said we are JUSTIFIED by Torah (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1), together.

So, Paul's critique of Torah is a critique of FAITHLESS-TORAH-OBEDIENCE.....not FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.

After all, Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16).

Jesus does too (Mt.5:19).

 

“ By The Law NO MAN will be justified” .

Of COURSE we are not justified by law without faith.

Thus, Paul requires justification by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"The Righteous ( justified people) shall LIVE by FAITH."

Careful!

That's Paul quoting "אֱמוּנָה" in Hab. 2:4! 

And what is this way of "אֱמוּנָה" required byPaul?  Answer: TORAH!  (see "אֱמוּנָה" in Ps.119:30,86,138 for proof).

Jesus agrees:  Faith is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).

Again, Torah requires FAITH (Dt.32:20).

Again, Torah requires FAITH (Dt. 18:15).

Torah and faith go TOGETHER.

 

"You and your wife could just Love each other and let things happen naturally."

Whatever works for your marriage!

But John says LOVE for God requires TORAH (1Jn.5:3).

Jesus says LOVE for Him requires OBEDIENCE (Jn.14:15)...thus obedience to Mt. 5:19....(Torah!)

Jesus cites Dt. 6 (Mt.22:37).  Dt. 6 proves that LOVE (Dt. 6:5) requires ALL TORAH (Dt. 6:25).

 

"That’s the relationship God wants with “ HIS” wife- the Church."

Careful!  CHURCH = ISRAEL! (Ac.7:38;Dt. 4:10).

And we ISRAELITES obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

 

“Believe and Love”

Belief (faith) without works is DEAD (Jas.2:26).

Works of what?  (Hint: Mt.5:19)

 

Again, LOVE requires TORAH (1Jn.5:3;Dt. 6:5,25;Jn.14:15;Mt.5:19).

 

"why didn't He say and reveal through Paul or Peter or John AFTER His Resurrection That we must obey Torah ? He didn’t. "

OOPS!  Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16).

Paul requires ALL Torah (1Cor.7:19).

Paul condones a vow to prove he obeys Torah (Ac.21); YOU should imitate that model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Paul says we are justified by Torah (Rom.2:13).

Paul AFFIRMS the legitimacy of Torah-obedient GENTILES (Rom. 2:27).

Paul affirms the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as TORAH (Jer. 31:33).

Paul says the New Covenant includes Torah to be obeyed "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom. 11:26-27).

Paul says Torah (Dt. 30:14) is the very word of faith which Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom. 10:8).

Paul says Torah is good.  so be good and obey Torah! (Rom. 7:12).

Paul says Torah is holy.  Be holy and obey Torah! (Rom.7:12).

Paul says Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  DO righteousness (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).  So obey Torah!

Paul says Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  Be spiritual!  Obey Torah!

Paul says STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) which means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

Paul CONTINUES to serve Torah (Rom.7:25).

Paul says Torah-disobedience is BAD (i.e., it's of the flesh, Rom.8:7).

Paul says we should be of the SPIRIT (which OPPOSE the Torah-disobedient flesh, Rom.8:13).   Thus, the Spirit leads us to OBEY (not disobey!) Torah.

Paul affirms Christ (1Cor.11:1).  Christ requires Torah (Mt.5:19).

John requires Torah (1Jn.2:3;5:3) as proof of love for God.

Peter even explicitly applies Lev. 11 to you! (1Pe.1:16).

 

“ Believe and Love “ was all He left us with."

Actually, the New Covenant inaugurated in Christ's blood (Lk.22:20) is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Torah requires more than "believe and love".....

blessings....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alive]

I realize that I seem to be a tape set on repeat ons these issues, but fundamental principles are the best way to approach things---for me.

The answer is revealed when considering the principle of law juxtaposed against the principle of Grace.

There is an actual spiritual dynamic attached to each one and they are diametrically opposed.

There is a difference between adhering to a thing and believing that you are under its obligation for salvation's sake---however that distinction is nearly beyond us as humans and will always lead to 'slavery'.

[BibleGuy]

31 minutes ago, Roar said:

And your point in bringing up such a things is what?

What part of neither Bible Guy or I are talking about BEING OR PUTTING PEOPLE UNDER THE LAW???

Why can't people that say they are following Jesus understand that there is more in Holy Spirit Inspired Bible Scripture than Jesus salvation mission/message? After that part of the New Testament the message keeps going and developing even if some stop listening or paying attention to it.  

Yes, Roar....our fellow Christian friends are struggling to reconcile the Biblical Scripture we set forth....compared against the traditions and theology they've inherited.......

Our Christian establishment didn't get to it's present condition overnight....and we must be patient to share with others....it will probably be several centuries until we get onto the same page, corporately, throughout the entire Body of Christ.....

I'd say only about 0.1%, or less, of Christians, globally, understand that they are Israelites who should obey Torah...

So, we've done a good job the past 2000 years getting out the fact that Jesus is the Savior.....

But we've scarcely begun to DISCIPLE others (Mt.28:19-20) in ALL the teachings of Jesus (thus including Mt. 5:19).

We've got a long way to go, baby!

But hey....my eschatology takes Dt. 7:9 literally....thus we probably have MANY MORE thousands of years to go, until things wrap up.....

I could be wrong....but I dare to take Dt. 7:9 LITERALLY....even though it's NOT a popular position.

And a LITERAL THOUSAND GENERATIONS could be something like 40,000 years?  But we've only had about 3500 years since Moses....so we've got a REALLY long way to go!

blessings....

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[BibleGuy]

31 minutes ago, Coliseum said:

If you do not have to follow them legalistically, how else must one have to follow them? That's the point. If you have to follow them at all, you are doing so legalistically. Two commandments encompass them all. "Love the Lord with all your heart....and love your neighbor..." And why? Not because we have to, but because God already did that for us: we desire to because He showed us a better way: believe and love. That is the essence of the Gospel, which Paul said we would be judged by. Anyone who preaches a different gospel is accursed. Is not that what he said? Grace supersedes the Law; if not, how many animals do you sacrifice daily for your sins? Jesus already did that once, for all. 

Hi there!

"If you have to follow them at all, you are doing so legalistically. "

Actually, maybe false.  Depends upon your conception of "legalism".

For example, we may define LEGALISM as THE OBEDIENCE OF LAWS TO GAIN SALVATION APART FROM FAITH.

And, given this definition, LEGALISM is clearly unbiblical (Gal.3:11;5:4-5).

Yet Paul still requires all Torah (2Ti.3:16) and Jesus does too (Mt.5:19) and John does too (1Jn.5:3) and Stephen does too (Ac. 6:10-15).

So, the BIBLICAL position is:

1. Legalism is bad (Gal.3:11;5:4-5).

2. We SHOULD obey Torah (Mt. 5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;Ac.6:10-15).

That's not LEGALISM....rather, it's obedience which flows from LOVE (1Jn.5:3;Jn.14:15;Dt. 6:5,25).

 

"Two commandments encompass them all. "Love the Lord with all your heart....and love your neighbor..." And why? Not because we have to,"

Well, Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to you...and Dt. 6 requires ALL Torah (Dt 6:25).

And I suppose you do not "have to" obey Torah....I mean....you can sin if you want!  But I don't recommend it....

 

"believe and love. "

Yes, BELIEVE Mt. 5:19 (so do what is says!)

LOVE Jesus (Jn.14:15).....so OBEY His teachings! (Mt.5:19)

 

"That is the essence of the Gospel, which Paul said we would be judged by."

And that Gospel is the word of faith which he preaches....

Hey wait...what's this?  Paul says TORAH (Dt.30:14) is the very substance of the FAITH which he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"Anyone who preaches a different gospel is accursed. "

True....the Galatians pursued a false gospel of works without faith....that's REALLY bad!

Paul requires WORKS (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER for justification...

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But LAW AND FAITH TOGETHER.

Jesus AGREES that faith is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).

Faith is of TORAH (Dt. 32:20).

Faith is of Torah (Ps.119:30,86,138).

 

"Grace supersedes the Law;"

No supersessionism.  Rather, BOTH TOGETHER!

GRACE is in Ex. 33:13...and it inspires Moses to seek God's WAYS (Ex.33:13) which are in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).

Same grace.

Same Torah.

Both then and now.

 

"how many animals do you sacrifice daily for your sins?"

Surely you know that Jesus has not yet restored the Levitical sacrifices! (Mal.3:4)

Paul CONDONED sacrifices (Ac.21).

Thousands of Christians were zealous for all Torah (Ac.21:20), thus including sacrifices.

Some Christians were even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7).

Sacrifices WILL return (Zec. 14;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3:4;Dt.30:1-8).

We simply can't obey everything while in diaspora......but our diaspora WILL end (Dt.30:1-8) when we return to inherit the land promised to US (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29).

 

"Jesus already did that once, for all. "

Sure, Jesus is the once-for-all sacrifice for sins.....

AND, Jesus comes to RESTORE the Levitical covenant of animal sacrifices (Mal.3:4) "as it was in the days of old, as in former years".

We have MUCH to anticipate in the future!

blessings...