A Future Seven Years?

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I think the reference to Daniel's people is just to designate who, sans all other connotations. Jesus would be outside that as Creator. And the prophecy predates Jesus birth. Daniel was and Israelite and a Jew so it's the Jews referenced here. 

Did it have to happen during a week? Maybe, since the tasks were not accomplished, God had to take over putting a stop to the countdown. The very existence of Jesus throws a wrench in the works supplanting the ability for Daniel's people to do what they were told, and they weren't doing it anyway, and never were going to get it done. So it's possible Jesus is cut off after the 69th week and yet not within the last week. The clock is stopped. But maybe that's just something I heard and believe and it's not accurate.

From Matt 24 something is coming. Maybe it's 7 years, maybe it's not. It's some amount of time that's at least 3.5 years. But that leaves the beginning of sorrows which can't be equated to 2000 years in my mind.

 

I'm not sure why Jesus would be excluded since He is from the tribe of Judah.  The prophecy references the Messiah so I think it's applicable to Jesus even though He is the creator.

I likewise think that the 70 week clock has stopped but not at the end of the 69th week.  For ~3.5 years Jesus confirmed the new covenant with the house of Israel and made atonement for iniquity.  There is still ~3.5 years left that pertains to the house of Israel that begins roughly around the time of the AoD.  I suspect that Jesus will complete the confirming of the new covenant with the house of Israel during those 3.5 years through the two witnesses.

Something is definitely coming.  Daniel 12 says it lasts for a time, times and half a time and also ties it to the AoD.  That's why I see the prophetic clock starting with the AoD and having ~3.5 years left, and why I see the 70th week as partially completed.

[Last Daze]

26 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hey LD,

I don't think that "the confirming of the covenant being the new covenant" can be the New Covenant that Jesus established. His New Covenant is an everlasting Covenant....not just for one week.

I also don't believe that the 70th week begins with a peace treaty. You're right though, too many people are fixated on there being a peace treaty to begin the final week. Jesus never alluded to it, neither did Paul or Matthew, nor does Revelation. The only mention is in 1 Thes 5:3 "when they say peace and security, then sudden destruction will come upon them". I think that is referring to the time just before the Wrath of God kicks in.

Thanks Joe.  I'm not suggesting that the new covenant lasts only seven years, but rather that it is confirmed with the house of Israel for seven years.  I see the time of Jesus' ministry being the first 3.5 years with the final 3.5 years being just after the AoD when Israel has fled to the wilderness.  I suspect that the two witnesses sent by God will accomplish the final 3.5 years.

I agree with the timing of the declaration of peace and safety as being much later than most think.

[Diaste]

45 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I'm not sure why Jesus would be excluded since He is from the tribe of Judah.  The prophecy references the Messiah so I think it's applicable to Jesus even though He is the creator.

I likewise think that the 70 week clock has stopped but not at the end of the 69th week.  For ~3.5 years Jesus confirmed the new covenant with the house of Israel and made atonement for iniquity.  There is still ~3.5 years left that pertains to the house of Israel that begins roughly around the time of the AoD.  I suspect that Jesus will complete the confirming of the new covenant with the house of Israel during those 3.5 years through the two witnesses.

Something is definitely coming.  Daniel 12 says it lasts for a time, times and half a time and also ties it to the AoD.  That's why I see the prophetic clock starting with the AoD and having ~3.5 years left, and why I see the 70th week as partially completed.

The only point I can make for a time period before the A of D directly associated with the end of the age is the two witnesses. They must prophesy 42 months and I'm betting it's not going to be during God's wrath.

 

[Last Daze]

59 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The only point I can make for a time period before the A of D directly associated with the end of the age is the two witnesses. They must prophesy 42 months and I'm betting it's not going to be during God's wrath.

 

I've always associated the two witnesses as meting out God's judgment and wrath since they are seen as the plague-bringers and the plagues contain God's wrath.  But I guess that's a discussion for another thread.

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Have you given any thought to the confirming of the covenant being the new covenant?  There is a reference to the Messiah, the Messiah being cut off, an end to sacrifice, atonement for sin, all of which speak to the new covenant.

I know that so many people are fixated on the final week as being a 7 year peace treaty of sorts but what if that isn't the case?  Just want to give people food for thought.

 

Yes, but Israel is being dealt with by God in a very specific way.  This is in part because the Lord blinded them so that all could be included in the covenant.  All the way back to Genesis you can find there is an everlasting covenant made with them, but in the course of time God had to address their disobedience in breaking the covenant, that is what the 70 weeks were all about.  So first look at this passage from Ezekiel, in which the everlasting covenant and the atonement are brought together.

 

Ezekiel 16:59 “For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and I give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares the Lord God.”

 

So then the issue is resolving the timing on when these things take place.

 

Isaiah 27:7 Has he struck them as he struck those who struck them?
    Or have they been slain as their slayers were slain?
8 Measure by measure, by exile you contended with them;
    he removed them with his fierce breath in the day of the east wind.
9 Therefore by this the guilt of Jacob will be atoned for,
    and this will be the full fruit of the removal of his sin:
when he makes all the stones of the altars
    like chalkstones crushed to pieces,
    no Asherim or incense altars will remain standing.

 

Isaiah 27:12 In that day from the river Euphrates to the Brook of Egypt the Lord will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

 

God bless

 

 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I've always associated the two witnesses as meting out God's judgment and wrath since they are seen as the plague-bringers and the plagues contain God's wrath.  But I guess that's a discussion for another thread.

It makes a case for 7 years. 

If the 42 months of the beast's power to continue and the 42 months of the witnesses are concurrent,  and only in the last half of the week, then you would have the beast killing them at the very end of the week with the ensuing three day party.

There will be no making merry and sending gifts during the wrath of God.

So then the 42 months cannot be concurrent. I suppose there could be overlap but I'm convinced that isn't the case.

No one can touch these two for the length of their moment confronting the beast and the world. But the beast does kill them after their 42 months is expired,when the beast is given the power to continue for his 42 months; deceiving the world demanding worship and what not.

Two successive 42 month periods as I dont see the beast refraining from the murder of the witnesses when he has clearly been given enormous power; and no doubt this is the same 42 months where Satan has been cast to earth.

[Last Daze]

6 minutes ago, Diaste said:

If the 42 months of the beast's power to continue and the 42 months of the witnesses are concurrent,  and only in the last half of the week, then you would have the beast killing them at the very end of the week with the ensuing three day party.

There will be no making merry and sending gifts during the wrath of God.

When the two witnesses are killed, the plagues subside which is cause for partying. It's the quiet before the storm, the 7th plague, the final woe. 

[Uriah]

Gen. 17:4- As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Dan. 9:27- And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:...

Matt. 26:28- For this is my blood of the new (covenant) testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:24- And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new (covenant) testament, which is shed for many.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Last Daze said:

When the two witnesses are killed, the plagues subside which is cause for partying. It's the quiet before the storm, the 7th plague, the final woe. 

But the timing would be off. At the end of the 42 months the beast is defeated and thrown in the pit. A concurrent schedule would not allow for the beast to rise up and kill the witnesses after 42 months as it's over and the beast is gone. 

I can't liken the plagues of the seals and trumps and bowls to the power of the witnesses. It's possible the beginning of sorrows is the time of the witnesses and the obvious chaos depicted is a direct result of their ministry. The witnesses are given carte blanche and the trumps and bowls are more specific in effect, timing, and appear to be a one off where the witnesses "strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish." 

But if there was a first half called the beginning of sorrows and the witnesses arrived at the onset they could be the ones causing the wars, economic instability leading to economic control, and death as depicted in seals 2-4. Though I think those three seals are more conceptual in nature, creating other conditions, removing stability and allowing mankind to act in the sinful nature.

Accurate or not I see the beast rise, not in full power but enough to create a false peace with Israel, the witnesses appear to oppose the beast and warn the Jews and torment the earth, at the end of the 42 months of their prophesy the beast ascends the Temple, declares he is god, kills the witnesses, and forces the world to worship him or die, then continues unopposed in enormous power till Jesus destroys him at the end of the second 42 months.

[Uriah]

There is also the alternate way to view these things. One that I think satisfies the the scriptural demands and eliminates the distortions that look like irreconcilable differences. I am glad this was brought up:

The 42 months of the ministry of the two witnesses and the 42 months of the reign of the beast do not start at the same time. There is nowhere in scripture demanding/requiring that they do! IMO the witnesses will begin their ministry about 6 mo. before the beast comes into power. When they are slain, THEN the cataclysms of the trumpets and bowls begin-immediately. In approx. 6 mo. following that, the beast will be captured alive and destroyed.

Consider this: (yet I don't like making a "time line")- Since the plagues in Rev. are SO like what was seen in Exodus, I would not be surprised if the witnesses meet their death at Passover in attempting to ascend the the Temple Mount, ostensibly to rid it of an "image" of the beast. This would bring the height of battle, think Armageddon, to somewhere around Tish b'Av, coinciding somewhat with the date the Temple was destroyed-TWICE! In the following Feast of tabernacles, New Jerusalem comes into view above.