Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

[dhchristian]

13 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I'll put my head on the chopping block.

I believe the tribulation is a seven year period, it officially starts when the Man of Sin officially confirms a covenant with Israel and the many. The whole tribulation is the wrath of God and can be subdivided into; the wrath of man, the wrath of Satan and the greater wrath of God [the last 3-1/2 years being the greater wrath of God]. We are not appointed to the wrath of God, which is the entire seven year tribulation. On earth, we are indeed appointed to tribulation, but not "the" tribulation IMO. John 16:33 (KJV) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The purpose of the tribulation is the unveiling of Jesus Christ. To bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth; to bring Israel back and believe on the One whom they pierced; to punish and bring an end to the gentile world kingdom.

In addition; if one believes in the 'doctrine of imminency', that Christ could return at any moment, even in Paul's lifetime by the inclusion of the pronoun "we" with the Rapture and Resurrection. What does one do with this widely accepted doctrine?

Of course I could use a lot of cyber ink and scripture supporting my pretribulation view, but that's already been done by many with this view and normally doesn't change ones convictions. As with many other views; such as the 'gap theory', I've prayed, kept an open mind and heavily studied both [or more] sides of the debate, and reached my own conclusions and belief's. I've learned not to be dogmatic in my hermeneutic and prophetic views.

The traditional Jewish wedding, customs, traditions and expectations in Jesus' day are precisely outlined in our Bibles, and elsewhere in historical autographs such as Flavis Josephus. Everything from the betrothal through the bride groom going unexpectedly to fetch his bride unannounced. This tradition and process exactly mirrors the Rapture and Resurrection by the bride groom [Jesus] for His bride [the church]. Nowhere in this shadow, type and example does the bride get a black eye, abused, beat up or killed. 

It appears to me this Jewish marriage process reflects the order and sequence of the Lords return for His bride. There is zero spousal abuse mentioned in the traditional Jewish wedding customs. 

No need to put your head on the chopping block with me, But I will challenge what you believe.

Without rehashing my post on John's 7 visions, I address the doctrine of immanency there, and have no issue therewith. 

I Will ask you a couple of questions, Just to get a feel for where you stand. 

1 Why is the book of revelation addressed to the churches, and not to Israel if it only applies to Israel?

2 Why is Israel only mentioned twice in revelation, and both times with regard to the 144,000, and the earthly temple only mentioned once if the book pertains only to the Jewish people?

3 We who believe in Jesus are the saints, are we not? why are the saints still around on earth in revelation 14, and they are called to endure? 

As for the bride being beat up argument, Tell that to the believers in the middle east who are dealing with Muslim persecution, or those in NOKO, or China or any of the other 105 countries around the world where Christians are being persecuted and beat up. It is only in a country such as we are fortunate enough to live in that a doctrine like the pre-tribulation rapture can form. 

  

 

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I'll put my head on the chopping block.

I believe the tribulation is a seven year period, it officially starts when the Man of Sin officially confirms a covenant with Israel and the many. The whole tribulation is the wrath of God and can be subdivided into; the wrath of man, the wrath of Satan and the greater wrath of God [the last 3-1/2 years being the greater wrath of God]. We are not appointed to the wrath of God, which is the entire seven year tribulation. On earth, we are indeed appointed to tribulation, but not "the" tribulation IMO. John 16:33 (KJV) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The purpose of the tribulation is the unveiling of Jesus Christ. To bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth; to bring Israel back and believe on the One whom they pierced; to punish and bring an end to the gentile world kingdom.

In addition; if one believes in the 'doctrine of imminency', that Christ could return at any moment, even in Paul's lifetime by the inclusion of the pronoun "we" with the Rapture and Resurrection. What does one do with this widely accepted doctrine?

Of course I could use a lot of cyber ink and scripture supporting my pretribulation view, but that's already been done by many with this view and normally doesn't change ones convictions. As with many other views; such as the 'gap theory', I've prayed, kept an open mind and heavily studied both [or more] sides of the debate, and reached my own conclusions and belief's. I've learned not to be dogmatic in my hermeneutic and prophetic views.

The traditional Jewish wedding, customs, traditions and expectations in Jesus' day are precisely outlined in our Bibles, and elsewhere in historical autographs such as Flavis Josephus. Everything from the betrothal through the bride groom going unexpectedly to fetch his bride unannounced. This tradition and process exactly mirrors the Rapture and Resurrection by the bride groom [Jesus] for His bride [the church]. Nowhere in this shadow, type and example does the bride get a black eye, abused, beat up or killed. 

It appears to me this Jewish marriage process reflects the order and sequence of the Lords return for His bride. There is zero spousal abuse mentioned in the traditional Jewish wedding customs. 

There is zero spousal abuse mentioned in the traditional Jewish wedding customs.  Wow!! I have often wondered how ANYONE could believe that our God would tell His bride that He loves her, but before they can marry, He must first force her to choose eternity in fire and brimstone, or lose her head. What kind of human bridegroom would do such a thing? Far be in for God to do it!

It just shows a great lack of understanding of the end times scriptures.

[Last Daze]

35 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There is zero spousal abuse mentioned in the traditional Jewish wedding customs.  Wow!! I have often wondered how ANYONE could believe that our God would tell His bride that He loves her, but before they can marry, He must first force her to choose eternity in fire and brimstone, or lose her head. What kind of human bridegroom would do such a thing? Far be in for God to do it!

It just shows a great lack of understanding of the end times scriptures.

What about child abuse?

That's absolutely terrible rhetoric, void of truth.

Are you greater than your Master?

Edited November 26, 2019 by Last Daze

[dhchristian]

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There is zero spousal abuse mentioned in the traditional Jewish wedding customs.  Wow!! I have often wondered how ANYONE could believe that our God would tell His bride that He loves her, but before they can marry, He must first force her to choose eternity in fire and brimstone, or lose her head. What kind of human bridegroom would do such a thing? Far be in for God to do it!

It just shows a great lack of understanding of the end times scriptures.

Wives must learn to submit to the will of the groom and trust him with their lives. Some Women never learn this, and are not the ones the father wants as his Son's bride. They all will be tested, those in the end in an accelerated time of testing. 

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing....This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. (Eph 5:22-24, 32)

[dhchristian]

Just now, Da Puppers said:

Maybe there aren't any pre-tribbers living in those countries is why they are being persecuted.   How about a volunteer to test that theory? 

Be Blessed 

The PuP

I Highly doubt we are super saints in these lands where the Pre-trib rapture is a possibility. If anything they are.

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is zero spousal abuse mentioned in the traditional Jewish wedding customs.  Wow!! I have often wondered how ANYONE could believe that our God would tell His bride that He loves her, but before they can marry, He must first force her to choose eternity in fire and brimstone, or lose her head. What kind of human bridegroom would do such a thing? Far be in for God to do it!

It just shows a great lack of understanding of the end times scriptures.

Now I remember where I've heard this before:

• From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.  Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.”  But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”  Matthew 16:21-23

The similarities are striking.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

What about child abuse?

That's absolutely terrible rhetoric, void of truth.

Are you greater than your Master?

We are talking about the character of our God. I will not believe He would choose to cause His bride to be murdered before the marriage ceremony! Of course, you are free to believe anything.  If you believe the murder of saints is His perfect will, you can. I will not believe it. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Wives must learn to submit to the will of the groom and trust him with their lives. Some Women never learn this, and are not the ones the father wants as his Son's bride. They all will be tested, those in the end in an accelerated time of testing. 

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing....This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. (Eph 5:22-24, 32)

Are you saying you believe it is in God's perfect will that He leave His church here to suffer under His wrath, when we have verse after verse telling us the opposite?  I don't buy it. 

[iamlamad]

6 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Now I remember where I've heard this before:

• From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.  Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.”  But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”  Matthew 16:21-23

The similarities are striking.

No similarity at all: Jesus CHOSE to go to the cross to redeem mankind.  God has NOT chosen to leave His bride here during the time of His wrath. It is just not going to happen.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Are you saying you believe it is in God's perfect will that He leave His church here to suffer under His wrath, when we have verse after verse telling us the opposite?  I don't buy it. 

Not His wrath.