Unbiblical leader/elder

[Wesley L]

2 hours ago, LonerAndy said:

 

Well you could be right.   I have always thought it best to follow a chain of authority.  If your sister-in-law had a problem with say your mother.   Would you rather her come to you, and discuss the issue, or go directly to your mother and confront her?   I would rather she come to me, and I could discuss it with my mother first, before setting off a bomb in the family.

Equally, if I have a problem with the CEO of my company, it would likely go better to discuss those things with the one of the managers to then bring to the CEOs attention, rather than just showing up at the CEOs office.

Again maybe you are right.

However even in that context...  I would first fix my own behavior.  Meaning I would consistently come on time, and follow the dress code.

Only then would I engage with the man.

As far as being one leader in the church is non-biblical... isn't that something you bring up at the congregational meeting?

I wonder about that.    I know Christian churches that have barely 30 people.  How can you pay for a staff of leadership, with the tithes of barely 30 people?     What about those churches in China, which have just 10 people meeting in a basement?  Are all small churches violating the Bible by not having more people in leadership?   Seems a little unlikely to me.

Just be careful that you are not using godliness to justify your violation of scripture.   You can't say that X-person is doing something wrong, and because I can see it, that means I am holy in violating my duty to obey authority. 

Everything you have described thus far in this thread, is a church that has little redeeming value.   Either you are drastically overstating how bad this church is, or you are describing a Rev 2:5 church.   The Lord has come and taken away the lamp, and there is no light there anymore.

If the Lord has removed the light from this church, then you will not be able to bring it back.

Obviously you know more about it than I do, but just based on what you have said, there isn't much here that shows promise.

 

Thanks for the response. It is quite in line with what i tried to do, keep obeying his authority (deal with the log in my own eye) Talk to other “managers” in church, ones that were in the church for many years. But also talked to the CEO and together with the managers.

Other believers in church seems ok to me, lots of care and consideration towards each other, preachings are biblical. I dont have any problems with the church. I dont think i have said anything bad about the church as a whole. Only about the current CEO of our church.

Funny you mentioned Rev 2:5, i shared the letter to Ephesus with the elder.

My hope is that this CEO follows Christ again, regaining his first love.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Wesley L

[B3L13v3R]

@Wesley L
Wesley, sounds like you have a humble heart on this matter, and things are astray for this one proud man. In hopes he might repent, and return to his First Love as you mentioned. If others have seen the same and have addressed it with him as well and there is no change, perhaps he should be shown the door until he does repent.
And if he repents, welcome him back, while watching for real godly "fruit" to make sure it's real.

At the same time, I see you rightly dividing the Word on this matter, and are following what the Bible has to say.
By all means, be late anytime in any Church when reaching out to others with the Gospel, it's the good news of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Any real preacher would rejoice at your doing so!

If things don't change, perhaps it's time to move on.

The things you mention make this man unqualified, as he looks to "lord over God's heritage" and is not being an example to the flock, per these few verses:

1 Peter 5:1-3  The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:  (2)  Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;  (3)  Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Prayers for you and your wife on this matter.

[dhchristian]

On 1/22/2020 at 5:13 AM, Wesley L said:

Hello everyone,

I try to keep this as compact as possible.

I attend our church for 2 years now. It is a small church with 30~40 believers only.
It is a bit different than usual, because we don't have our own pastors. Every week, another pastor from a different church comes and preaches the word of God. The good thing is that we get to hear the word through different pastors. We have clear guidelines for them to preach. For example this period we will do Romans. Starting with Romans 1, next week Romans 2, and so on.

The teachings are biblical. The way church members treat each other is sincere and true.
But there is one big problem in our church, somehow there is only 1 person in charge. He is the one who started to church 23years ago. But his ways are not the ways belonging to a true christian. (lack of sympathy, pride, focussing on rules, unforgiving) A total lack of fruit of the spirit.

This has been bothering me for months now. Because of my opinion, he is openly attacking me for not obeying certain rules in Church.
- wearing wrong clothes
- arriving late, disturbing the preaching. (Note that I arrived late because the moment before I was standing on the streets sharing the Gospel to passerby)
- disagreeing with him

In the beginning, I was quite angry at his loveless ways, which made me vulnerable to temptation. So, I was annoyed and wasn't able to focus on the main points and I did let my frustration disturb my way of speaking to him. I tried to let it rest and focus on the log in my own eye.

Now, last week he was poking again with his rules. Brothers and sisters in the church saw clearly that his actions were directed towards me.
It is not easy to choose to leave the church. As there are fellow brothers and sisters who are in christ.
Others, they had already given up on him, and they are actually ignoring him. 
But, the way I see it, he seems to be walking on the wide path throught the wide gate. Jesus told us to love, even our enemies. How could I pretend I don't see him? (thinking of the parable of the Samaritan) And the fact that he is the only elder making decisions in church, it affects the whole church.

We had a one on one meeting before. We had a meeting before including other church members. Now that he is still the same (and maybe worse) , I decided to write an open letter to him substantiated by scripture. Addressed to him, to be viewed by all members of the church. Advising him to turn back to Christ and that he should focus on our faith in Christ instead of us following his rules exactly. God told us to obey authority and elders. His rules are not the problem, his rules are correct. But he forgot the most important of them all, love God and love one another.

At this moment, I have to wait untill next weekend to see his reactions.
I do hope someday God will turn him back, that would be quite a testimony.

How do you see this situation?
How should a biblical leadership structure be within such a small congregation?

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. (1 Peter 5:1-3)

Sounds to me like you have a Narcissist in chief running your church. A master manipulator, and one who is unaccountable to anyone, This being the way he structured this church.  IMO Run! 

This is how cults are born. Once he has you under his control, It becomes much harder to leave. He will turn on you, and use his authority against you, the others involved who have given up saying anything are likely under his manipulative control, He is holding something against them. You Have done your part and biblically rebuked the Elder, as best as you can. Be ready to leave if asked to... But pray for the best, It is God's hands now, as he will either harden his heart and turn against you, or convicted, But it sounds to me like others have tried before and failed...

read the following links on cults.

https://libertyforcaptives.com/2012/06/29/eight-ways-to-identify-religious-brainwashing-mystical-manipulation-part-2-of-8/

 

[Wesley L]

12 hours ago, LonerAndy said:

I would need some context, and what was the tone and inflection.   I could very easily see that question being asked in an insulting way.

However, if that is really how the leadership of the church thinks.... and that is possible.....  then I would never confront the leadership on this.  I would have left the church after that very conversation.  Why do you want to bring people to this church, where they might never be saved based on how leadership responds?

Again, sounds like a church that had it's lamp removed.   You are not going to re-light their lamp, because it doesn't sound like they even have a lamp.

My tone was a normal conversation tone, with respect. He reacted annoyed and did cut short the conversation.

Because it is not the elder that saves a person, it is God.
Actually, I would think twice to ask weak or unbelievers to come to this church, unless I am sure that I can lead them personally.

Each member of the church who is truly in christ is a light. I believe God still watch over His sheep, but not all are His sheep. I still have hope for this church, as I believe in God.

[Wesley L]

5 hours ago, B3L13v3R said:

@Wesley L
Wesley, sounds like you have a humble heart on this matter, and things are astray for this one proud man. In hopes he might repent, and return to his First Love as you mentioned. If others have seen the same and have addressed it with him as well and there is no change, perhaps he should be shown the door until he does repent.
And if he repents, welcome him back, while watching for real godly "fruit" to make sure it's real.

At the same time, I see you rightly dividing the Word on this matter, and are following what the Bible has to say.
By all means, be late anytime in any Church when reaching out to others with the Gospel, it's the good news of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Any real preacher would rejoice at your doing so!

If things don't change, perhaps it's time to move on.

The things you mention make this man unqualified, as he looks to "lord over God's heritage" and is not being an example to the flock, per these few verses:

1 Peter 5:1-3  The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:  (2)  Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;  (3)  Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Prayers for you and your wife on this matter.

Thanks, this brought tears in my eyes.
And thanks for the prayers, please also pray for the elder for God to soften his heart and open his eyes.
For men, that is impossible, but for God all things are possible.
 

[Neighbor]

On 1/23/2020 at 6:25 PM, LonerAndy said:

In Romans 1:1, Paul calls himself a slave of Christ.  Do slaves argue with their masters?  Do slaves bicker about the rules?   Do slaves start to judge other people?

Church members are not slaves to one man rule of a local body of Christ Jesus.

 

[Neighbor]

On 1/22/2020 at 5:13 AM, Wesley L said:

I attend our church for 2 years now. It is a small church with 30~40 believers ....

Hi Wesley, You have described what appears to be a following of the commands within Matthew 18. Good, now don't blow it by being contentious. You have a decision to make. I suggest it an easy one, leave that church that is under one man command! Do not do so with any letter nor any speech of discontent. Take the high road by praying, asking the Holy Spirit to lead you  to another body of Christ Jesus. Keep praying, listen, and test the answer to your prayer.

The history within our Bible shows God does lead  us into  dispersions, often enough by way of contention and discontent.

Perhaps it is even time  to be moved to another place altogether- As example; I have been moved to new churches some 2800  miles apart. Simply for me to serve a specific need at a locale, and then at another. That has meant selling homes, changing vocations, and moving with my entire family. Not simple, but an easy choice, and wow looking back- so rewarding an adventure.

May God lead may you and yours be blessed by God.

 

Pray,  make the commitment, follow through; is my suggestion. Ask of others to join  in prayer for and with  you. I pray you are led as God wills and that you follow His call to you.

[Wesley L]

I forgot to update how it went.

The open letter was sent. I received a lot of understanding from my brothers and sisters in church. But also kind warnings not to let this escalate into a personal fight. Which I totally agree with. Most understood my motivations why i wrote the letter.

The following church service, the faces of both the elder and his wife were very clear. (Unhappy and annoyed). It was best to let it sink in first. Kept praying for them.

Today, the issue is still unsolved. But for me, I think it is wise to focus my walk with Christ. And let God handle his heart. Pray that he will soften his heart and follow Christ again.

 

 

[Coliseum]

On 1/22/2020 at 5:13 AM, Wesley L said:

Hello everyone,

I try to keep this as compact as possible.

I attend our church for 2 years now. It is a small church with 30~40 believers only.
It is a bit different than usual, because we don't have our own pastors. Every week, another pastor from a different church comes and preaches the word of God. The good thing is that we get to hear the word through different pastors. We have clear guidelines for them to preach. For example this period we will do Romans. Starting with Romans 1, next week Romans 2, and so on.

The teachings are biblical. The way church members treat each other is sincere and true.
But there is one big problem in our church, somehow there is only 1 person in charge. He is the one who started to church 23years ago. But his ways are not the ways belonging to a true christian. (lack of sympathy, pride, focussing on rules, unforgiving) A total lack of fruit of the spirit.

This has been bothering me for months now. Because of my opinion, he is openly attacking me for not obeying certain rules in Church.
- wearing wrong clothes
- arriving late, disturbing the preaching. (Note that I arrived late because the moment before I was standing on the streets sharing the Gospel to passerby)
- disagreeing with him

In the beginning, I was quite angry at his loveless ways, which made me vulnerable to temptation. So, I was annoyed and wasn't able to focus on the main points and I did let my frustration disturb my way of speaking to him. I tried to let it rest and focus on the log in my own eye.

Now, last week he was poking again with his rules. Brothers and sisters in the church saw clearly that his actions were directed towards me.
It is not easy to choose to leave the church. As there are fellow brothers and sisters who are in christ.
Others, they had already given up on him, and they are actually ignoring him. 
But, the way I see it, he seems to be walking on the wide path throught the wide gate. Jesus told us to love, even our enemies. How could I pretend I don't see him? (thinking of the parable of the Samaritan) And the fact that he is the only elder making decisions in church, it affects the whole church.

We had a one on one meeting before. We had a meeting before including other church members. Now that he is still the same (and maybe worse) , I decided to write an open letter to him substantiated by scripture. Addressed to him, to be viewed by all members of the church. Advising him to turn back to Christ and that he should focus on our faith in Christ instead of us following his rules exactly. God told us to obey authority and elders. His rules are not the problem, his rules are correct. But he forgot the most important of them all, love God and love one another.

At this moment, I have to wait untill next weekend to see his reactions.
I do hope someday God will turn him back, that would be quite a testimony.

How do you see this situation?
How should a biblical leadership structure be within such a small congregation?
 

I can tune in to your circumstances. I left a church because of personal disagreement. But something to consider: never once in the Seven Churches in Revelation did Jesus tell anyone to leave their church. In fact, in the worst of them---Thyatira, where Jezebel was leading her members into immorality and idolatry, here is what Jesus said: 

Revelation 2:24-25 (NIV)
²⁴  Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you):
²⁵  Only hold on to what you have until I come.

Perhaps Jesus placed you where you are to help others who may be falling. Pray, and ask God what to do. It may not be an easy decision.

[Wesley L]

15 minutes ago, Coliseum said:

I can tune in to your circumstances. I left a church because of personal disagreement. But something to consider: never once in the Seven Churches in Revelation did Jesus tell anyone to leave their church. In fact, in the worst of them---Thyatira, where Jezebel was leading her members into immorality and idolatry, here is what Jesus said: 

Revelation 2:24-25 (NIV)
²⁴  Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you):
²⁵  Only hold on to what you have until I come.

Perhaps Jesus placed you where you are to help others who may be falling. Pray, and ask God what to do. It may not be an easy decision.

Thanks! 

After prayer God showed me, every church has its own problems. Moving away won't solve any problems. And me myself was also part of the problem. So working on myself was also part of the solution.

 

p.s. yes, and problems will be there until He comes back to solve them all. Praise Jesus!

Edited February 11, 2020 by Wesley L