Could the rapture be referred to as a coming?

[kenny2212]

Read these passages then answer - Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thess. 4:16-17, Rev. 19:11-14. God bless us all!

[Last Daze]

58 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

Read these passages then answer - Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thess. 4:16-17, Rev. 19:11-14. God bless us all!

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

Says it all.

[Diaste]

Some people have gone out of their way say the 'rapture' is a thing that happens apart from Jesus 'coming'. Fact is they get the event from the same scriptures that never mention a 'rapture', but do tell us about the Coming of Jesus and the gathering. 

No such thing as 'rapture'. 

There is only the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of the elect, both occurring in the same time/space moment.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

No such thing as 'rapture'. 

There is only the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of the elect, both occurring in the same time/space moment.

I have to partially disagree, but mostly agree. I disagree, because there is a Rapture. 1 Thess 4:17

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I bolded the text in the passage above, "caught up". In Latin translation, that word is rapio, that is were the word rapture comes from, so yes, there IS a rapture. The word means to catch up of snatch away, and implies a suddenness, a forcefulness. I hate to say this, but it is the word from which we get our English word "rape' from.

Paul there, is telling his brothers (Christians) that those who are alive at Jesus coming, will be gathered up to be with him, that is all the rapture is, but it is real.

In the Greek, the basic word is harpazo, and in this specific verse, it is in the form of harpagēsometha - will be caught away, HELPS Word studies says:

properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

Now, where I agree with you Diaste, is that it is not something that happens separated from His coming, that is to say that there is no indication that there is a delay between our being caught up, and and His returning to earth in the parousia, His coming to be alongside or present with us when he RETURNS.

I think it is fair to say that they are separate, in that in the rapture, we are caught up to join Him in the air, and in His coming, he is coming to earth, and we will be with Him. The difference, is one ouf direction, we rapture up, then He comes down from 'in the air' to on the ground.

I have to say though, that after well over a decade of being on this forum, reading what others have to say, I do not understand why some insist on adding details to the events, that the Bible does not mention, or really even imply.

To Kenny:

No, the rapture is not a coming. Rapture is us upward, coming is Jesus downward.

[kenny2212]

40 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

To Kenny:

No, the rapture is not a coming. Rapture is us upward, coming is Jesus downward.

Noted, Omegaman.

 

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have to partially disagree, but mostly agree. I disagree, because there is a Rapture. 1 Thess 4:17

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I bolded the text in the passage above, "caught up". In Latin translation, that word is rapio, that is were the word rapture comes from, so yes, there IS a rapture. The word means to catch up of snatch away, and implies a suddenness, a forcefulness. I hate to say this, but it is the word from which we get our English word "rape' from.

Paul there, is telling his brothers (Christians) that those who are alive at Jesus coming, will be gathered up to be with him, that is all the rapture is, but it is real.

In the Greek, the basic word is harpazo, and in this specific verse, it is in the form of harpagēsometha - will be caught away, HELPS Word studies says:

properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

The reason I say 'there is no rapture' is not to discount harpazo, which is a glorious event we are promised will take place and of which I am fully convinced; but to dispute the notion that it is a stand alone, with no precursor or foreshadowing and unrelated to any other event. Since the word doesn't appear in Holy writ I find it's use inappropriate semantically, and because it has become an entity, existing with a life of it's own, an object of worship even. But it's never because I dispute the event as recorded in the Greek text of the scripture. That will occur. I dispute the modern popular understanding of the event as laid out by the Pretrib idea.

23 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Now, where I agree with you Diaste, is that it is not something that happens separated from His coming, that is to say that there is no indication that there is a delay between our being caught up, and and His returning to earth in the parousia, His coming to be alongside or present with us when he RETURNS.

I think it is fair to say that they are separate, in that in the rapture, we are caught up to join Him in the air, and in His coming, he is coming to earth, and we will be with Him. The difference, is one ouf direction, we rapture up, then He comes down from 'in the air' to on the ground.

I have to say though, that after well over a decade of being on this forum, reading what others have to say, I do not understand why some insist on adding details to the events, that the Bible does not mention, or really even imply.

 

Agreed.

[OldCoot]

The only kink in equating the catching up with the same coming where Yeshua physically returns to the earth is, if the righteous are caught up at that time when Yeshua is returning to take over and rule, then who would be left to be the sheep of the nations (Matthew 25 / Joel 3)?

[OldCoot]

On 1/25/2020 at 3:59 AM, Diaste said:

Some people have gone out of their way say the 'rapture' is a thing that happens apart from Jesus 'coming'. Fact is they get the event from the same scriptures that never mention a 'rapture', but do tell us about the Coming of Jesus and the gathering. 

No such thing as 'rapture'. 

There is only the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of the elect, both occurring in the same time/space moment.

 

Oh, there is indeed a removal of the righteous or “rapture” if one wants to use that word.  The OT has many passages that support the idea the righteous, both dead and living just like Paul wrote, will be “hidden” in their “chambers” in the pavilion of the Lord.   Isaiah, Zephaniah, David, et al all wrote about it as happening before or at the start of the “time of Jacob’s Trouble, which is the calamities many call the 70th week or “tribulation” period.

[missmuffet]

How do you interpret these verses?

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 

¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 

⁵⁰ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Edited January 28, 2020 by missmuffet

[kenny2212]

I just don't see the necessity of a rapture after the tribulation. Let's say believers go through the whole tribulation... Majority of the believers would definitely be tortured and killed. Let's say Jesus comes after this and says "Count yourself lucky; you have a part in the rapture". Won't the believers be right to ask "Isn't it too late for that now?" A rapture at the second coming is definitely too late. God might as well let believers (non-Jewish believers) make it alive into the millennium. The rapture has to happen but earlier (1 Thess. 4:15-17). What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't make sense for God to allow the believers to go through the suffering of the tribulation before rapturing them. Something as unique as the rapture should have a unique purpose... Something as unique as the rapture shouldn't be tied with anything else (hope you understand what I mean)...

God bless us all 

Edited January 29, 2020 by kenny2212
Added new info