The Chronological Order Of The Revelation

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

"He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect..." (Matt. 24:31/compare II Thess. 2:1).  I take the trumpet that Jesus is here speaking of as being the "Trump of God," or "last trump" spoken of by Paul.  Of course, there are other parallels between Jesus' words and John's account of the 6th Seal (and its interlude).

The verses you are citing is the Second Coming with the Church. The Rapture is the Last Trump. We understand Paul is speaking of the Trump that ends the Harvest (Church Age). They don't want to hear that of course, it throws their understandings off kilter and they then have to try and make excuses.

The facts are this, we are told everything we need to know about God's Plans in the Leviticus 23 Feasts.....

Jesus fulfilled the three Spring Feasts.

1.) Passover {Jesus is the blood the washes and protects us}

2.) First-fruits {Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave}

3.) Unleavened Bread {Jesus was without sin/unleavened}

 

NOTICE{ The Next Feast is all alone on the Calendar, all unto itself in the Summer.

4.) Feast of Weeks/Pentecost or the CHURCH AGE { We are now harvesting souls for God/Jesus, we are now in the Church Age. What always ended the Harvest each year ? The sound of the Shofar, or "THE LAST TRUMP" it never did much, it sounded and thus made ANNOUNCEMENTS, in this case it ended the Harvest, thus God's TRUMP will end the Church Age and ANNOUNCE that Israel's ATONEMENT and TABERNACLE with God are nigh at hand.}

 

Coming Fall Feasts !!

5.) Feast of Trumpets {Explained in detail ABOVE, but they announced the Harvest was OVER and that the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacle were near}

6.) Feast of Atonement {Israel MUST ATONE before the 70th week closes, that is the Prophecy, so Israel will REPENT/Atone just like the 6th Feast says.

7.) Feast of Tabernacle { The word TABERNACLE means to DWELL WITH God, thus when Israel Repents and Jesus returns, where does he dwell for 1000 years? In Jerusalem, so God/Jesus dwells with Israel, or Israel Tabernacles with God. }

There are many clues in the bible, most people want God to reach down and shake them, and say See here !! But God speaks unto us via parables and riddles, Jesus said so, but only some can see, because many are called but few are chosen. 

By the way, Rev. 11 is an IMPORTANT KEY, its not a real time event per se. THINK ABOUT IT.....We see the 2nd Woe spoken of, but we know the 2nd Woe happened in Rev. 9. So we are given info about the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11 but we are given the DETAILS in Rev. 9 where it really happened. Rev. 11 is a Parenthetical Citation about the Two-Witnesses 1260 day ministry. It starts 75 days BEFORE the First Seal is opened and thus ends 75 days before the Beast dies......CHECK THAT, the Two-Witnesses die 75 days before the Beast dies, but Rev. 11 tells us about the coming 3rd Woe VICTORY by Jesus BUT like Woe #2, the DETAILS are given in Rev. 16. You see, the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe which is ALL 7 Vials combined. So we are told of the 7th Trump sounding, then told how Jesus will win, BUT we see that victory in Rev. 16:19, where Jesus defeats all the Nations and God calls those Nations {ALL OF THEM} Babylon the Great}. 

The reason the Two-witnesses die 75 days BEFORE the Beast does is they show up 75 days before the Beast Conquers Israel/Jerusalem at the 1260, they show up at the 1335 and turn Israel back unto God Malachi 4:5-6 CONFIRMS this. The False Prophet who is a Jewish High Priest then STOPS Jesus Worship {TAKES AWAY THE SACRIFICE} by the 1/3 of the Jews {Zechariah 13:8-9} who repented, and then in an act of insolence places an IMAGE {Rev. 13} of the E.U. President better known as the Anti-Christ/Beast in the Temple of God where it ought not stand {Matt. 24:15}. The False Prophet has a TYPE in history, he was Jason, real name Yeshua, he bribed Antiochus {the Anti-Christ TYPE} to be named the High Priest then tried to Hellenize the Jews leading to the Maccabean Revolt. So we had BOTH TYPES living at the same time !! Thats just wild !! 

The Two-witnesses pray down all the plagues, so they die at the 2nd Woe, but their prayers to bring down the final Woe has already went forth, thus chapter 11 must needs shows the end of the story, its a part of their ministry.   

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Imagine for a moment how unique God's personal trumpet must be.  It certainly must be the Trumpet of trumpets!  The mystery, however, lies in what respect the Trump of God might also be regarded as the last trump, seeing that the 7th Trumpet is clearly the last trumpet spoken of in the Bible.

Something to consider:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of hosts will defend them.
And they will devour and trample on the sling stones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them in that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

God sounds a trumpet on the day Israel is saved.

[Dennis1209]

Your view closely parallels mine. John is told to write the things that were, the things that are, and the things to come, that's easy to divide and see. Some will naturally disagree Revelation is written in chronological order, as with all things prophetic. There are parenthetical chapters inserted for additional information. If you're interested in which ones they are IMO, let me know and I'll list them.

[not an echo]

On 3/9/2020 at 4:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

On 3/8/2020 at 11:25 PM, not an echo said:

"He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect..." (Matt. 24:31/compare II Thess. 2:1).  I take the trumpet that Jesus is here speaking of as being the "Trump of God," or "last trump" spoken of by Paul.  Of course, there are other parallels between Jesus' words and John's account of the 6th Seal (and its interlude).

The verses you are citing is the Second Coming with the Church.

Hello Revelation Man,

Consider afresh Matthew 24:30, especially the two words I have emphasized:

 3o  And then shall appear  THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Based partly upon Jesus' use of the words "THE SIGN" in this verse, I have come to see the verses that I believe you are speaking of (Matt. 24:29-31) as pertaining to the first phase of His return and the rapture, or what I see as being His "Sign Return."  Because Jesus is here seen "with power and great glory," most at once interpret this to be of His Second Coming.  However, because of Jesus' choice of words and other evidences, I submit that His manifestation at this time will be as a sign for those in Israel's hemisphere, and especially for "all the tribes," of which 12,000 from each tribe will be sealed (Rev. 7:4-8).  To me, the next time Jesus is seen by anyone---even if it is but a glimpse//which is what I believe it will be at the rapture---He will be seen "with power and great glory"!

I do share some of your thoughts concerning the Feasts of the Lord as they relate to the last days.  And I have some thoughts concerning Revelation chapter 11 that I believe will interest you, as I too think that it is a key chapter.  But for now, I believe I need to work on another post for this thread.  These things can really take some time!!!

Edited January 27, 2023 by not an echo

[Revelation Man]

On 3/9/2020 at 8:41 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Revelation Man,

Consider afresh Matthew 24:30, especially the two words I have emphasized:

 3o  And then shall appear  THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Based partly upon Jesus' use of the words "THE SIGN" in this verse, I have come to see the verses that I believe you are speaking of (Matt. 24:29-31) as pertaining to the first phase of His return and the rapture, or what I see as being His "Sign Return."  Because Jesus is here seen "with power and great glory," most at once interpret this to be of His Second Coming.  However, because of Jesus' choice of words and other evidences, I submit that His manifestation at this time will be as a sign for those in Israel's hemisphere, and especially for "all the tribes," of which 12,ooo from each tribe will be sealed (Rev. 7:4-8).  To me, the next time Jesus is seen by anyone---even if it is but a glimpse---He will be seen "with power and great glory"! 

I do share some of your thoughts concerning the Feasts of the Lord as they relate to the last days.  And I have some thoughts concerning Revelation chapter 11 that I believe will interest you, as I too think that it is a key chapter.  But for now, I believe I need to work on another post for this thread.  These things can really take some time!!!

The Rapture can't be after the AoD {Matt. 24:15} and of course Matt. 24:29-31 is after that. Matt. 2436-51 is the actual rapture. 

As per the 12,000 x 12,000 look where that happens, in between the 6th Seal and the 7th Seal {which is the 7 Trumpets rolled up into one final Seal}. And God says hurt not the EARTH, TREES nor the SEAS until the 144,000 are SEALED. So what hurts the Earth, Trees and Seas ? The first four Trumps !! Think about it. They burn 1/3 of the trees, they burn grasses, the ywreck havoc on the seas and the earth so God is holding up the 7th Seal {Trumpet Judgments} until the 144,000 are protected. So what does that mean ? Well, who Flees Judea ? The 1/3 of the Jews {Zechariah 13:8-9} who repent and turn unto God. So the 144,000 are not really 144,000 people, its a METAPHOR for ALL Israel who repent as in 12 = FULLNESS and thus 12 x 12,000 = ALL Israel. So the Jews who repent and flee Judea at the AoD sign, need time to make it to Petra !! So God orders the Trumpet Judgments held up until they get to Petra. 

Rev. 18:4, when God says come out of her my people, lest you partake in her sins and plagues is God telling Israel to Flee Judea.

Matt. 24:29-31 is the Church/Bride returning with Jesus at the Second Coming, the Rapture has already happened. See Rev. 19, we come back WITH Jesus on White Horses. {Which is also a Metaphor for CONQUERORS, see Seal 1, the Anti-Christ Conquers on a White horse also. }

Edited March 11, 2020 by Revelation Man

[not an echo]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I'm quickly finding that the family of Christ that shares on Worthy Christian Forums can exercise one's brain cells!  But, that is not a bad thing.  However, I feel almost handicapped time wise, because I am one of those bi-vocational pastors, and my secular job is quite demanding.  Please forgive me for not being able to respond to every reply to a post I make.  Because there are so many angles on how we all see things, I am thinking that it might be good if I dwell a little more on why it is that I believe what I am believing.  It is easy to discern that we all have very important reasons for believing what we believe, and it can get quite involved.  I know when I am considering what someone else is putting forth, my head sometimes moves in approval, sometimes the other way.  Whatever your head may do in respect to what I put forth, I trust you will cause it to bow some.  Let's seek God together on it.

On the question of the chronology of The Revelation and my opening post for this thread, I have felt that it might be helpful to focus on some of the foundation for my thinking.  Akin to what Jesus said, if our foundation is on sand, it will washout by and by.  I consider the following to be like bedrock...

On the basis of the way the book of The Revelation opens, Christians, even in John's day, would have had good reason to be on alert for what was revealed to him to begin to take place.  John was shown many things that were going to happen, and for most anything that is going to happen, there is the time when it will begin to happen.  Look with me at the opening three verses of The Revelation and consider for yourself if it would not have been appropriate for the early Church to have been curious over what was about to start taking place:

  1   The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS;  and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

  2   Who bare record of the Word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

  3   Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:  FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.

It has been over 1900 years since John recorded these words.  This is not a short amount of time.  But, the stated purpose of The Revelation is to show unto Christ's servants "things which must shortly come to pass."  And, as if to put some emphasis upon the word "shortly," these words follow:  "for the time is at hand."  I believe the simplicity of these words has been too often overlooked and/or dismissed.

It seems to me that late first century Christians were minded that Christ could return for the Church at any time.  But, it should not surprise us to find that some of what was revealed in The Revelation concerned things that were going to happen in the meantime.  When John received The Revelation, he was told, "What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia" (Rev. 1:11).  John did as he was told, and in accord with the way The Revelation opens, the members of these churches would have had good reason to be on alert for at least some of what was revealed to him to begin to take place.  Said another way, from as early as the first century of the Christian era, our brothers and sisters in Christ were informed concerning some things that would be taking place---even in their day.

Also connected to this is just what things readers of The Revelation could have expected to see.  A few verses later, in Revelation 1:19, John is given these instructions:  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."  We know that whatever is spoken of in the past tense or the present tense cannot shortly come to pass.  It is only whatever is spoken of in the future tense that can shortly come to pass.  Where are the future tense things spoken of, or what is it that John was told would be hereafter?  The beginning of this category of things is not to be found until some time after chapter four, as indicated in its opening verse:

  1   After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in Heaven:  and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;  which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER.  

At this verse, the first century churches had their cue for where to begin looking for information concerning those things that were at hand to come to pass.  Beginning with the next verse, John beholds God on His throne and the worship He is receiving from twenty-four elders and four beasts that are before Him.  But, there is nothing here about what shall be hereafter.  Rather, this is part of the prelude to the revealing of what was to be hereafter.  This continues to the close of chapter four.

Chapter five then opens with John's account of a mysterious book God is holding in His right hand, "sealed with seven seals" (vs. 1).  This is followed by a question posed by an angel concerning who is worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof.  No one is found worthy to do this, but "the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David" (vs. 5), who is none other than "the Lamb of God," or Jesus Christ.  The scene is then of the worship He receives of all who are in Heaven, but again, there is nothing here about what shall be hereafter.  This also is part of the prelude to the revealing of what was to be hereafter and continues to the close of chapter five.

It is not until chapter six, when the Lamb actually begins to open the seals of that Seven Sealed Book, that John is shown something that will go into the category of what was to be hereafter and at hand to come to pass.  Here, the Lamb opens the 1st Seal and John sees a white horse go forth, upon which is a rider with a bow.  John records of this rider that "he went forth conquering, and to conquer" (vs. 2).  After this, another seal is opened and another horse with a rider goes forth, and the same continues until there are four horsemen that have gone forth on differing campaigns.

In review, a key truth to understanding The Revelation (and its chronology) revolves around a couple of statements that are made in its opening verses.  First of all, that it was given to show into the servants of Christ "things which must shortly come to pass."  Secondly, the statement, "for the time is at hand" for that that was to be revealed to come to pass.  Coupled with this, prior to chapter six, there is nothing revealed that will rightly go into the category of something that could have been looked for to come to pass.  Therefore, it only remains that if Christians were going to be on the lookout for some things to begin to happen, the only appropriate place to look concerning those things would have been towards the seals of that Seven Sealed Book and what those seals represented.  This, in turn, would mean that at least one (or more) of the seals was about to be opened.  I think of how with most movies, it is really helpful to catch the first five minutes.  This is like those first five minutes!

Hopefully, in the next day or two I can continue.  Got to go for now.

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him:  Rooted and built up in Him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving" (Col. 2:6-7).  

Edited January 27, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

On 3/8/2020 at 10:25 PM, not an echo said:

Hello again Diaste,

Since the 7th Trumpet is of such significance and the last trumpet spoken of in the Bible, it is quite natural to wonder if this is the trumpet Paul referred to in I Corinthians 15:52 as "the last trump."  In my study and efforts to try to reconcile all that is said about the trumpets, I have found a possibility that I believe makes for better harmony.

First of all, the "last trump," spoken of by Paul, is also spoken of by him as being "the Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16).  This seems to put this trumpet as one of a kind instead of one in a series, as the 7th Trumpet is.  Imagine for a moment how unique God's personal trumpet must be.  It certainly must be the Trumpet of trumpets!  The mystery, however, lies in what respect the Trump of God might also be regarded as the last trump, seeing that the 7th Trumpet is clearly the last trumpet spoken of in the Bible.  We have what I believe to be a significant clue in the Old Testament.

I have heard this before. It seems a rationalization in support of a conclusion. I wonder, where did the Trumps come from that were given to the angels in Rev 8? The trumps are the heald of another phase in God's plan. God's angels, God's plan, God's trumps. The 7th trump is a trump of God; it can be nothing else.

On 3/8/2020 at 10:25 PM, not an echo said:

In Numbers 10:1-10, the Israelites are instructed to make two trumpets for the purposes of calling an assembly and sounding an alarm.  The trumpet has been used throughout much of history for the very same purposes.  When the Trump of God is sounded, we know that the greatest assembly that has ever been assembled will take place, that of all the saved at the time of the resurrection and the rapture of the Church.  Concerning this assembly, Paul makes the statement, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4:16-17).  There will never be the need for another trumpet to be sounded to assemble God's children unto Him, for after this trumpet is sounded, we will be forever with Him.  So, whereas I have come to see the Trump of God as the very last trump calling an assembly, I have also come to see the 7th Trumpet as the very last trump sounding an alarm.  For believers, the former could not be more blessed.  For unbelievers, the latter could not be more grave.  It will be the Alarm of alarms.  As I stated in my opening post for this thread, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period that takes in everything that John sees from the time of its sounding in chapter 11 until after the Last Judgment in chapter 20.

For me, I see greater evidences that the "Trump of God" and "last trump" will be sounded at the opening of the 6th Seal, before the opening of the 7th Seal, which (to me) must be opened before even the first trumpet can be sounded.  I believe that the appearance of the Lamb (Christ) at this time (Rev. 6:16) is what Jesus referred to as "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" in Matthew 24:30.  Though I no longer subscribe to the common pre-trib rapture view, I am pre-Daniel's 70th Week and believe that there will be two phases to Christ's return, the first phase being this one---what I refer to as His "Sign Return."  At this time, Jesus says that "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect..." (Matt. 24:31/compare II Thess. 2:1).  I take the trumpet that Jesus is here speaking of as being the "Trump of God," or "last trump" spoken of by Paul.  Of course, there are other parallels between Jesus' words and John's account of the 6th Seal (and its interlude).

And yet there is still only one such last trump in the whole of scripture associated with the end of the age which is the important idea. One last trump associated with the gathering at the end of the age; one last trump associated with Jesus return. You are adding a trump and there is no justification for such an addition.

 

On 3/8/2020 at 10:25 PM, not an echo said:

Having put forth these few elements of my different pre-trib view, I will share a bit more (I only have a little bit of time), for clarification and for you to think on for now.  I believe the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17 to be the resurrected and raptured Church in Heaven.  I see the "great tribulation" of verse 14 as being what the Church has so long been through (as a whole throughout the Church Age), or, what the Church will have just escaped from.  Also, I see the "tribulation" of Matthew 24:29 as being Church Age tribulation, the tribulation that Jesus began to speak of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, which is paralleled by the results of the activity of the horsemen of the first four seals.  Further, because there is no prohibitive time frame given before the opening of the 7th Seal, I believe it will be opened the same day as the 6th Seal.  This means that the Seven Sealed Book can now be opened, which I believe concerns the period of the Day of the Lord exclusively.  In turn, this means that the Church will have been raptured just before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, in harmony with I Thessalonians 4:13-5:3ff).   

That's not much different than the common view of Pretrib. Pretrib still equates either 2000 years or 7 years with a time period that only occurs after a significant event that has not occurred. In order for your scenario to hold water there should have been and A of D sometime between the ascension of Jesus and today. Since we know the last A of D occurred in the 2nd century BC about 170 years before Jesus walked the earth there can be no "great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again"

There is no timing in 1 Thess 4 or 5. Pretrib must make up the timing. Maybe the 'rapture' is pretrib but it cannot be proven from the quoted passages.

On 3/8/2020 at 10:25 PM, not an echo said:

Before signing off for the night, it is on my heart to say that I believe Christ's return for the Church is imminent, that He can come before I finish this sentence.  In accord with what I have put forth above, this would mean that I see the opening of the 6th Seal as being imminent as well, and I do.

It's just the same old dispensational replacement doctrine of the heretics. Conviction and delivery are not convincing to me.

[Revelation Man]

On 3/10/2020 at 12:22 AM, not an echo said:

On the basis of the way the book of The Revelation opens, Christians, even in John's day, would have had good reason to be on alert for what was revealed to him to begin to take place.  John was shown many things that were going to happen, and for most anything that is going to happen, there is the time when it will begin to happen.  Look with me at the opening three verses of The Revelation and consider for yourself if it would not have been appropriate for the early Church to have been curious over what was about to start taking place:

  1   The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS;  and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

  2   Who bare record of the Word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

  3   Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:  FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.

It has been over 1900 years since John recorded these words.  This is not a short amount of time.  But, the stated purpose of The Revelation is to show unto Christ's servants "things which must shortly come to pass."  And, as if to put some emphasis upon the word "shortly," these words follow:  "for the time is at hand."  I believe the simplicity of these words has been too often overlooked and/or dismissed.

The BIGGEST MISTAKE I see people make is when they come to a confusing verse like this, they in many cases don't DIG IN to foundationial beginnings, they just go with the English translation. For instance, Daniel 7:11 says the Beast will be killed, body destroyed, and then cast into hell whilst Rev. 19:20 says the Beast and False Prophet are cast into hell ALIVE !! So what gives ? God is not a liar, its either a bad translation or a misunderstanding of the word. In that case men misunderstand the word, we never die spiritually, we rest until we are raised {1 Cor. 15 says so} and so the Beast is killed but never allowed to go to the grave, he is JUDGED straight away, and cast straight into hell. ALL MEN must die and then be JUDGED !! No exceptions. 

The same thing has happened here brother, people have taken a SINGLE WORD and created a whole new doctrine, without even DIGGING IN to the foundational underpinnings, the Greek words themselves. Thus they go off on a Rabbit Hole dig that takes them off course via the bible, and even teach this.

So what does the SOON you underlined really mean ? Lets look at the Greek !! I use a site that allows me to study the Greek and Hebrew root words in real time, I can hover over the NUMBERS that show the Greek words and guess what, the English translation SHORTLY has TWO NUMBERS behind it !! WOW.

:1 ¶ The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn, 2491

For starters, never change your understanding off of ONE WORD, we are told, here a little, there a little, precept upon precept Amen. This verse can't tell us ANYTHING in reality because Jesus doesn't know the day nor hour, only the Father does. But Jesus knows the season. That's what he gives us.

1722 = the Greek word (EN) which means.....#1722 ἐν en {en} a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest

5034 = the Greek word (TACHOS) which means....  #5034 τάχος tachos {takh'-os} 1) quickness, speed

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.

—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So we get two different things from this because it meant two different things, it never mean SHORTLY as in I will return shortly, Jesus doesn't know the day nor time, so he used a phrase which John transcribed into Greek to mean at a FIXED POINT IN TIME {or at a time in the future at the Fathers CHOOSING} by using the Greek word EN Which the Thayer's above translates as meaning FIXED POSITION, in PLACE....TIME...or STATE.

Secondly, we get another word, the English translators slipped here or just did not comprehend what the Greek words actually meant, 400 years later with a Computer its easy for us to get it right, WITH EFFORT. The other Number/Greek word was TACHOS and that is where we get our English word TACHOMETER from, you know, Vroom, vroom, vroom, faster and faster !!

So Tachos meant IN HASTE........Speedily..........Shortly [as in a SHORT FRAME OF TIME] Jesus will be sent and comes in a BOOM before you can blink your eyes !! Notice in the above Strong's it mentions in a BRIEF SPACE OF TIME ? It never means Jesus was coming SHORTLY, it meant when Jesus comes he will come IN HASTE.......FAST........In a SHORT BURST of time or QUICKLY...........My favorite is IN HASTE !!

So lets put BOTH WORDS together and see if we can make sense of this verse now knowing that its actually TWO WORDS !! So Jesus actually said this.

{EN}....At a fixed point in time [in the future, WHEN the Father sends me....that was a GIVEN] I will come {TACHOS} in Haste/speedily. 

It never meant Jesus was coming back SHORTLY. We have to study the word when it seems contradictory, we can't go down rabbit holes then teach others the same thing, that's hows cults like the Mormons come about......BY ONE WORD,  which is why God tells us Line upon line, here a little there a little. 

So, you get OFF-TRACKED like others I have seen, the Seals have been opened, all because you misinterpreted ONE VERSE !! Or allowed other men to LEAD YOU in that direction.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 3/10/2020 at 12:22 AM, not an echo said:

Hopefully, in the next day or two I can continue.  Got to go for now.

 

We have heard this before, how many of the Seals have already been opened, it is not factual brother. 

Rev. 1 was Christ Glorified or the things which John had SEEN. {Jesus' Glorified}

Rev. 2 and 3 were the things WHICH ARE {Church Age}.

Rev. 4:1 BEGINS the things which will be HEREAFTER {70th Week AFTER the Rapture} of course you having some of the SEALS already opened have to go off kilter here.

Revelation chapters 4 and 5 is CLEARLY SPEAKING about the Church in Heaven AFTER the Rev. 4:1 OPEN DOOR Rapture and BEFORE the Seals are opened. We see they have the promises to the 7 Churches in Rev. 4:4, CROWNS, THRONES and a ROBE !! We also see in Rev. 5:9-10 that they are REDEEMED by Jesus' blood and come from ALL Nations, tongues, multitudes etc. Jesus was THE LAMB.....Some, I guess you are in that line, say Jesus was not in Heaven, they couldn't find him, that is bogus, it ALSO SAYS he could not be found on earth or under the earth, so by that type thinking Jesus was NOWHERE, its just bad thinking, Jesus was a Lamb, thus a Lamb WAS WORTHY. 

Rev. 6 is where the Seals are opened, AFTER the Rapture, during the Middle of the week, by Jesus, he RELEASES the Anti-Christ to go forth in FOUR WAYS, by Conquering {White Horse}, by Taking Away Peace {WARS/Red Horse}, by Famine {Black Horse} and by Sickness/Death/Grave {Pale Green Horse}. All four of these happen over the Beasts 42 month reign of terror do they not ? They are not linear from each other, they all cover his 42 month reign, he will kill for 42 months, which brings wars/takes away his FAKE PEACE, this brings famine, and thus death and the grave all they way up until Jesus casts him into hell in Rev. 19:20, so these "HORSES" are all about the Anti-Christ and his tyrannical ways. The 5th Seal is a TESTIMONY to the deaths of the Saints over this 42 month period of time. The Saints who gave their lives unto Jesus AFTER the Rapture but then refused to take the Mark of the Beast or serve him. All of these are FORWARD LOOKING EVENTS, {42 Months} thus they are all opened on day 1261, which leaves the Beast 1260 days out of the 2520 days in the 70th week to rule. 

So, on day 1261, it takes about 5 minutes for Jesus to OPEN  THE FIRST FIVE SEALS OF THE SEALED BOOK !! And then he opens the 6th Seal also on day 1261, a few minutes later, thus ANNOUNCING God's Wrath/Lambs Wrath has come upon mankind, God wants REPENTANCE before people chose to take the Mark of the Beast so naturally He would OPEN THE SEALS loosing the Anti-Christ then immediately ANNOUNCE that His Wrath was at hand, "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve" !! The Jews who repented have been fleeing Judea since the 1290 Event, this is the 1260 Event 30 days later. They are almost in Petra and God via the Angel commands the 7th Seal be HELD UP {Hurt not the Trees, Seas nor the Earth} until the 144,000 {Fleeing Jews which number in the Millions, like 2-3 million} have been SEALED or make it to the protected area of Petra. 

Then God opens the 7th Seal which is ALL 7 trumpets, the last three of course being the Three Woes. 

Rev. 7 is the 144, 000 I tied in above, but in verses 9-17 we see the Raptured Church one last time, we came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation where millions of brothers and sisters were killed for their faith. 

Rev. 8 is where the 7th Seal is opened, RELEASING Gods 7 trumpet judgments and 7 vial judgments, because the last three trumpets are the THREE WOES and the last woe is ALL 7 Vials we see in Rev. 16 !! The First Four trumps are what this chapter is about, all the grasses burn, 1/3 of the trees burn, 1/3 of the sea turns to blood,  1/3 of the sea creatures die, 1/3 of the ships are destroyed, a 1/3 of the fresh drinking waters are poisoned, 1/3 of the light is filtered out by plumes of smoke from what looks to be a coming Asteroid strike. 

Rev. 9 is the First Two Woes: First Woe is Apollyon {Scarlet Colored Beast} and his demon hordes maiming mankind. The Second Woe is a 200 million Angelic Army that slays 1/3 of those who took the Mark of the Beast, IT CLEARLY SAYS SO.....They DELIVER the Plagues of God !! Chinese men on horses are not going to deliver God's plagues !! There are not 200 million horses on earth. (Rev. 16 finishes up the Seal, Trumpet and Vial JUDGMENTS}. 

Next: THE PARENTHETICAL CITATION CHAPTERS

Rev. 10 is a Flash Forward to the very end, Jesus promises TIME WILL BE NO MORE, when the 7th Trumpet sounds.

Rev. 11 is all about the Two-witnesses "Ministry". John is shown the Two-witnesses parameters, by measuring the temple God shows us that the Two-witnesses are have come to preach to the Jews only, NOT unto the outer court {Gentiles}. They show up at the 1335 Event {Dan. 12} which is 45 days before the 1290 Event {AoD} and 75 days before the 1260 Event {Anti-Christ BECOMES the Beast}. Notice: They have the power to shut off the rains and pray down plagues, REMEMBER THAT. So they show up 75 days before First Seal {Anti-Christ} is opened/Released to go forth Conquering in Rev. 6 and they die 75 days before the Beast dies in that they die BEFORE the 7th Trump is blown, which is the 3rd Woe which is the Rev. 16 Seven Vials !! Thus they die, but before they died they PRAYED for the 3rd Woe to come forth via the 7th Trump sounding. The Beast that comes out of the bottomless pit (Apollyon} kills them, then they arise 3 1/2 days later and are HARPAZOED/Raptured to heaven. We are shown Jesus' VICTORY in Rev. 11, but we are not told the DETAILS because the details are in Rev. 16, the 7 Vials of Gods Wrath = the 3rd Woe = the 7th Trump. Likewise, we are told about the 2nd Woe earlier in Rev. 11 but not given the DETAILS in that instance also, because we were given those details in Rev. ch. 9 via the 2nd Woe. That is why this is a Parenthetical Citation Chapter !!

Rev. 12 is also a Parenthetical Citation Chapter, it starts with the Seals being opened and Satan cast to earth, probably at the 6th Seal, but since they were all opened within minutes of each other, its the same thing basically. Satan is CAST DOWN at the 6th Seal, he and his demons are the UNTIMELY FIGS spoken of. He chases the Woman for 1260 days, thus he has to be CAST DOWN on day 1261. So this really happens in Rev. ch. 6, the Woman Flees at the 1290, giving her a 30 day head-start to escape the Beast when he goes forth Conquering. God {eagles wings} takes her there. 

Rev. 13 also starts in Rev. ch. 6, the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem and the MANY [Nations] in the Mediterranean Sea Region to BECOME THE BEAST {Arises out of the Mediterranean Sea} His False Prophet sidekick will be a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus who tried to Hellenize his Jewish brothers, leading to the Maccabean Revolt. Jason's real name was Yeshua, he bribed Antiochus and thus had his own brother Onias III, a Pious High Priest killed in order to get the job. The False Prophet will likewise try to get the Jews to SERVE THE "WORLD" (Hellenize) and its gods. He erects an IMAGE of the Beast in the Temple of God and mandates that all men must worship him or die !!

Rev. 14 is a little different, this chapter covers the full 7 years of the 70th week, we even see the Rapture of the Church here.  This is THE HARVEST CHAPTER. Jesus is seen on Mt. Zion with the 144,000 {All Jews who REPENTED} as he returns to keep the Israeli seed from perishing as was His promise to Abraham. Israel are THE WHEAT which MUST GROW with the Evil Tares until the very end. Thus in Rev. 14:18-20 we see the EVIL TARES being placed into the Wine-press of God's Wrath. God/Jesus destroys the evil tares by speaking victory, he thus BINDS them {in the grave} to be burned later {in 1000 years at the Second Resurrection which is the SECOND DEATH}. Meanwhile, in a sorta SOLILOQUY, we see Jesus thrust in his sickle in verse 14, Harvesting the Church from up on a cloud !! Amen. So this Harvest Chapter thus covers the full 7 years in essence.

Rev. 15&16 kinda go together, could be together, there was no chapters and verses, the English brought us all that. So the Angel are readying the Vial Judgments, which come after Rev. 9 because the 6th Trump is the 2nd Woe and the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe, Rev. 8:13 tells us that......Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So we know the last three trumps are the THREE WOES yet to come !! The Last or 3rd Woe is ALL 7 Vials of God's Wrath. The Last Vial is Jesus landing on Mt. Zion and defeating the Beast and all his minions at Armageddon. That is why Rev. 11 shows the 7th Trump then Jesus' VICTORY !! Babylon FALLS. Babylon as shown in Rev. 16:19 is THE WHOLE WORLD under Satan's influence. God says in that verse that the NATIONS FELL, and God say them as great Babylon. Well who were the Nations that fell ? Well Vial number 6 tells us, ALL THE KINGS OF THE WHOLE EARTH were gathered to Armageddon by the Three Demon Frog Spirits, so Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD who Battles against God. Babel means confusion, and I would say human beings fighting their own Creator would qualify as CONFUSION of the highest order !! 

Rev. 17 is the Judgment of the Great Harlot. Lets not forget that. Babylon is not being Judged here per se, the Harlot {All False Religion of All Time} is being Judged here, as a matter of fact the 10 Kings KILL HER OFF !! Rev. 17:16 tells us that, thus this chapter starts in Rev. 6 also, because the first order of business by the Anti-Christ and his 10 Kings will be to institute a ONE WORLD RELIGION where ALL MEN must worship the Anti-Christ as god or die !! There will be no Islam, no Hinduism, no Buddhism, he will not allow Christianity or Judaism, he will only allow BEAST WORSHIP, thus he KILLS OFF the Harlot [Religions] here, The Harlot is/WAS a Mystery, God tells us who she is however via the NAME TAGS on her Headband {forehead} as Harlots of old wore their names on their headbands identifying them to their clients. So its a

MYSTERY:

1. Babylon the Great....This city is Associated with FALSE RELIGION/False gods/Mysticism/Astrology etc. 

2. Mother of Harlots...................False Religion flourished here like nowhere else, this was it Birthplace, Semiramis was the Mother of False Religion.

3. Abominations of the Earth...We all know God is a jealous God who hates false gods being worshiped by mankind. 

So THE HARLOT is a match for all three of these Name-tags, she is basically synonymous with FALSE GODS/Religions. She was birthed there and is an Abomination unto God. False Religion is WIPED OUT by the Beast and his 10 kings save for Beast Worship. Jesus will destroy that. So she is killed of VERY EARLY during his 42 month reign.and the Scarlet Colored Beast is Apollyon a Demon.

Rev. 18 is a 42 Month chapter, its Babylon {World} getting Judged by God. This starts out in Rev. 6 also, the Seal, Trumpets and Vials Judgment covers a 42 month time period. Babylon has become a HABITATION of devils verse 2 says, well yes, of course, Satan has been cast down from Heaven with all his demons and Apollyon and his hordes have been released from the bottomless pit. In verse 4 we see that God tells His people to COME OUT OF HER lest you partake in her sins AND plagues. This is God telling the 1/3 of the Jews who REPENTED to Flee unto Petra, lest they take part in the worlds SINS & JUDGMENTS/Plagues intended for Babylon/World. In verse 9 we see these kings CRY and LAMENT Babylon's burning {The World} but they HATED the Harlot. That is because, Babylon {The Beast she rode/Governments of the World} is not the same ENTITY as the Harlot {False Religions} who RODE the Gov. Beasts or CO-MINGLED with the Governments down through the ages until the Anti-Christ decided he wanted BEAST WORSHIP !! 

In verse 8 we see that Babylon's Judgments will come in ONE DAY, well, the Day of the Lord lasts 3.5 years and it starts in ONE DAY. We next see that Babylon's Judgments come upon her in ONE HOUR in verse 10, and we know by looking at Rev. 17:12 that the Kings ruled with the Beast for ONE HOUR also, and we know that actually means 42 months don't we ? God WEAVES His CODES throughout the book of Revelation. So the Merchants who Cry and Lament represent the men of earth who are so sad to see their EVIL LITTLE FIEFDOM Destroyed by God via His Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments !! 

The Seals are mostly the Anti-Christ, he kills 1/4 of all mankind, about 1.5 to 2 billion people. The 200 Million Angelic Army in Rev. 9 slays another 1-2 billion people, thus the Merchants are losing all their customers, add to that the Billion or so Christians who all died when their Spirits were Raptured to Heaven and the Merchants have a reason to be sad. On top of all that, 1/3 of the trees burn, all the grasses burn, the Seas are Judged with Blood, dead sea creatures, the fresh waters are poisoned, the Smoke Plumes fill the air and creates DARKNESS by 1/3. Now the Thee Woes come, the last Woe being ALL 7 Vials of Gods Wrath on Mankind. We know what they bring forth. The World {Babylon} is getting JUDGED by God in Rev. 18. It starts with the 1st Seal and ends with the 7th Vial.

Rev. 19 is the Church/Bride in Heaven, it covers the full 7 years just like Rev. 14 did. The Church marries the Lamb then returns with Jesus on White Horses which only means as Conquerors. We can see the Beast and his minions STILL ON EARTH, so that happens at Rev. 16:19 which is actually the same thing as Matthew 24:29-31. We then go to the Marriage Supper which is Armageddon and then Jesus by the Sword of his mouth SPEAKS VICTORY !! We don't actually feast on the dead, its a METAPHOR. We feast on their pompous arrogance during their defeat.

Rev. 20 is now again back in the Chronological Order, as a matter of fact the very end of Rev. 19 is once again a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation. Rev. 20:4 sees the Martyrs of the 5th Seal Judged and told they will live and serve with Jesus ON EARTH for 1000 years. Satan is bound up, the Beast and False Prophet are cast into hell in Rev. 19:20, that's really a part of the Judgment IMHO. 

Rev. 21&22 are the Ever After and New Jerusalem chapters. 

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Revelation Man

[not an echo]

On 3/9/2020 at 9:59 PM, Revelation Man said:

On 3/9/2020 at 8:41 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Revelation Man,

Consider afresh Matthew 24:30, especially the two words I have emphasized:

 3o  And then shall appear  THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Based partly upon Jesus' use of the words "THE SIGN" in this verse, I have come to see the verses that I believe you are speaking of (Matt. 24:29-31) as pertaining to the first phase of His return and the rapture, or what I see as being His "Sign Return."  Because Jesus is here seen "with power and great glory," most at once interpret this to be of His Second Coming.  However, because of Jesus' choice of words and other evidences, I submit that His manifestation at this time will be as a sign for those in Israel's hemisphere, and especially for "all the tribes," of which 12,ooo from each tribe will be sealed (Rev. 7:4-8).  To me, the next time Jesus is seen by anyone---even if it is but a glimpse---He will be seen "with power and great glory"! 

I do share some of your thoughts concerning the Feasts of the Lord as they relate to the last days.  And I have some thoughts concerning Revelation chapter 11 that I believe will interest you, as I too think that it is a key chapter.  But for now, I believe I need to work on another post for this thread.  These things can really take some time!!!

The Rapture can't be after the AoD {Matt. 24:15} and of course Matt. 24:29-31 is after that. Matt. 2436-51 is the actual rapture.

To Revelation Man (and all),

I certainly agree with you that the rapture "can't be after the A o D," as I am of the pre-trib persuasion, just not according to the common view.

Our difference, I believe, stems in part from our differing interpretations of Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  I believe Jesus' Discourse can be rightly divided into three sections.  From a bird's-eye view, I see the opening section as pertaining to the era of the Church, the central section as pertaining to Daniel's 70th Week, and the closing section as pertaining to the Rapture of the Church, which will end what is commonly called the Church Age and will occur before the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week.  My view of this is consistent with all three accounts (Matt. 24, Mk. 13, and Lk. 21).

Coming in a little closer, I would divide the accounts thus:

THE OPENING SECTION---Matt. 24:4-14;  Mk. 13:5-13;  Lk. 21:8-19 (Concerns the era of the Church)

THE CENTRAL SECTION---Matt. 24:15-28;  Mk. 13:14-23;  Lk. 21:20-24 (Concerns Daniel's 70th Week)

THE CLOSING SECTION---Matt. 24:29-51;  Mk. 13:24-37;  Lk. 21:25-36 (Concerns the Rapture of the Church)

Coming in even closer now, for more of a bug's-eye  view, I see the the opening section as pertaining to the era of the Church, which will end before the manifestation of the "abomination of desolation" (e.g., Matt. 24:15).  I see the central section as pertaining to Last Day's Israelites and Daniel's 70th Week, which will end with CHRIST'S SECOND COMING and the Battle of Armageddon (e.g., Matt. 24:27-28).  Finally, I see the closing section as pertaining to the event that will come between the Church Age and the time of Daniel's 70th Week, the day of CHRIST'S SIGN RETURN and the Rapture of the Church (e.g., Matt. 24:29-31ff).

As is known, those who hold to the common pre-trib view believe that there will be two phases to Christ's return.  As can be seen, I BELIEVE THIS TOO, as I see Jesus speaking of both phases right in the middle of His discourse.  Of course, everyone sees Matt. 24:27 as pertaining to Christ's Second Coming.  But, is this the same event of which He speaks three verses later, in verse 30?  There He says, "And then shall appear THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven."  To me, these differing statements do not sound like different angles on the same event.  The word sign denotes something far different than the substance of His coming for every eye to see as depicted in verses 26-27.  My point is, why would Jesus use the word SIGN in connection with this event, when His SUBSTANCE will be right before everyone!  However, the word sign will fit the event of the rapture, especially with this happening so quickly and the likelihood that He will make this sign appearance in the sky over Israel, for those in that hemisphere to witness.  Said another way, Jesus' differing words in verses 27 and 30 are not different angles on the same event, but different accounts of His future return, because it will be in two phases as so many of us already believe.

I have often felt that the reason this has not been seen by those of the common pre-trib persuasion (and those of other persuasions) is because of the word "after" in verse 29.  I believe those who hold to the common view have run from this word for way too long, and as a result, a rapture passage has been obscured to mean something else.  For me, a lot comes together much better (with both The Olivet Discourse and The Revelation) when the tribulation Jesus is speaking of in this verse is understood to be that of which He speaks in the opening section of His discourse, which again, I believe pertains to the era of the Church, or Church Age.

Revelation Man, unlike many, I do most certainly agree with you that Matt. 24:36-51 concerns the rapture!  I am just seeing verses 29-35 as pertaining to the rapture as well!  And, the other accounts are consistent with this.  I will try to share my view of how this ties in with The Revelation account (and its chronology) tomorrow (or very soon).

One more thing before signing off for the night:  According to Matthew's account, just before Jesus began His Olivet Discourse, the disciples had asked Him, "Tell us, when shall these things be?  and what shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, and of the end of the world?" (Matt. 24:3).  By this, they were as much as asking Him, "What shall be THE SIGN OF THY SECOND COMING?"  In reply, He reveals to them many things, but the only time He uses the definite article the with the singular word sign is in verse 30.  Now, it may seem kind of odd that Jesus would indicate that before His Second Coming He is going to make a Sign Return.  Odd, until it is realized that at His Sign Return, He is coming to get something before He returns later to stay!  And, what is that?  Look afresh at the verse that follows, verse 31---"And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Edited January 27, 2023 by not an echo