IN THE MIDST OF COVID19, WHAT'S NEXT IN BIBLE PROPHECY?

[luigi]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Notice verse 8:

...And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Notice who the "them" is: the Red horse rider was given a great sword.

The Black horse rider was to bring famine. Yes, food exists, but too expensive. And notice in verse 8, it says hunger. Yes, it MIGHT be caused by economic systems, but it might be caused by something as simple as locusts. 

The pale horse and rider were titled "death." 

The "THEM" is referring to seals 2 -4: and God limited their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. Their orders from the devil, without a doubt, was to STOP the advance of the gospel (seal 1)

Military leaders in some African nations have been known to allow their people to STARVE while they have food locked up  - waiting for money. They are led by greed. 

An American private ship bringing food to the starving was met in port by the leader of the nation, who demanded a ridiculous tariff before the food could be unloaded. The Captain of the ship just put right back out to see and went to another port; then the food was trucked in. 

You are right: even when people in the past have starved to death  - food was available but only for the rich. 

As I believe the third horseman whose policies enact in a work for sustenance program in what are now today third world nation once these nations' economies collapse; the four horsemen I then see correlating with the four leading type socio economic systems throughout the world. The white horse and its rider  are nations who in order to make their socio economic system viable require the natural resources the nations they conquer represent. 

The red horse and its rider are nations who in order to maintain their socio economic viability initiate civil strife and war among its member nations.

The fourth (gray, pale, grizzled) colored horse with its rider Death, who in allegiance with Hell, are nations who in order to maintain their socio economic systems viability initiate genocide among its member nations. Hell and Death also appear in Isaiah 28 in relation to the Middle East, and so I believe Middle Eastern nations (including Israel) to be nations of the fourth horseman.

The four horsemen of the Apocalypse representing the four leading type socio economic nations of the world can also be seen as the four different beasts in Daniel 7. And though these four beasts are currently separate from each other as described in Daniel 7, will upon the rising of the fourth beast from the sea be united together as one as seen in Revelation 13:2.

iamlamad, Use God's Word to put the pieces of the puzzle together, and not someones perspectives that contradict the Word, thereby rendering confusion.

[iamlamad]

Just now, luigi said:

iamlamad, The Lord provides us with three seperate accounts of time, times, and an half time, so that we can see them as representing the same series of events. On top of that, the Lord clearly states in Daniel 8:17 and 19, along with Daniel 12:4 & 9 that the events shown Daniel regard the final times. The Lord knew that the devil would deceive people with fanciful twists that have some similitude with historical events, and thus provides us with these multiple descriptions of the same series of events, but with additional data in each. 

iamlamad, How do you reconcile the time, times, and an half in Daniel 12:7 in which there is a resurrection of many in Daniel 12:2 with your perspective of these events having already occurred? 

I will agree, in Daniel 7 he wrote of the 3 1/2 year period of time. He wrote it again in chapter 12. But chapter 8 has NOTHING to do with chapter 7 or chapter 12. It is about Persia and Greece.  Please note, Daniel did NOT write in any kind of chronology. It is like each chapter is a separate book at a different time.

I disagree with you. Let's look together:

Dan 8:1-13 is the vision Daniel saw. From then on it is Gabriel explaining what Daniel had just seen.

¹⁵ When I, even I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it; then behold, there stood before me one [Gabriel] with the appearance of a man.

 

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood, and when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, Understand, O son of man, for the [fulfillment of the] vision belongs to [events that shall occur in] the time of the end. [We must not pull this out of its context: WHAT "end" is he speaking about? It is about the "end" Daniel just saw in the vision. ]

¹⁸ Now as he [Gabriel] was speaking with me, I fell stunned and in deep unconsciousness with my face to the ground; but he touched me and set me upright [where I had stood].

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make you know what will be in the latter time of the indignation [of God upon the ungodly], for it has to do with the time of the end. [Again, we CANNOT pull this out of its context: WHAT "end?" It is the end of "the indignation" that Daniel just saw in the vision. Here is the "indignation:"

11...from Him the continual [burnt offering] was taken away and the place of [God’s] sanctuary was cast down and profaned.

¹² And the host [the chosen people] was given [to the wicked horn] together with the continual burnt offering because of the transgression [of God’s people—their abounding irreverence, ungodliness, and lack of piety]. And righteousness and truth were cast down to the ground, and it [the wicked horn] accomplished this [by divine permission] and prospered.  [The indignation is about Antiochus forcing the end of the daily sacrifices, putting to death some of the Jewish leaders, and forbidding ANY KIND Of worship towards the God of heaven.]

So the above verses: 11 - 12, show us the "indignation" in question. 

Now back to what Gabriel will explain about this "indignation."

^19...it has to do with the time of the end.²⁰ The ram you saw having two horns, they are the kings of Media and Persia.  [WHAT "end?" Gabriel is about to tell us: but as you can see IN CONTEXT it is the end of Medo-Persia!]

²¹ And the shaggy and rough he-goat is the king of Greece, and the great horn between his eyes is the first king [who consolidated the whole realm, Alexander the Great]. [Now "the end" is about Alexander the great."]

²² And as for the horn which was shattered, in whose place four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise out of his nation but not having his [Alexander’s] power. [Now "the end" is about the four Generals. Remember, we are not allowed to form doctrine from verses OUT OF CONTEXT. ]

²³ And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors [the apostate Jews] have reached the fullness [of their wickedness, taxing the limits of God’s mercy], a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark trickery and craftiness shall stand up. [Now "the end" is about the LATTER END of the four Generals: Antiochus Epiphanies rose up out of the Seleucus General.]

²⁴ And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall corrupt and destroy astonishingly and shall prosper and do his own pleasure, and he shall corrupt and destroy the mighty men and the holy people (the people of the saints). [Antiochus had demonic help! He was not so cruel of himself: it was the devil working through him.]

²⁵ And through his policy he shall cause trickery to prosper in his hand; he shall magnify himself in his heart and mind, and in their security he will corrupt and destroy many. He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes, but he shall be broken and that by no [human] hand.  [When Antiochus came against the Daily Sacrifices, started by God, he, Antiochus was coming against Jesus Christ (preincarnate).]

As you can see when we look close, this is all about Persia, then Greece, then Selecus, and finally Antiochus. "The end" spoken of is the end of "the indignation" of Antiochus getting victory over God's people. And WHY did he? Because of the sins of the people. They tied God's hands, so to speak. He, Jesus, had to allow it to happen. 

In the end, nothing in this chapter has ANYTHING to do with our future. 

How do you reconcile the time, times, and an half in Daniel 12:7 in which there is a resurrection of many in Daniel 12:2 with your perspective of these events having already occurred? 

Easy.

12 And at that time [of the end] Michael shall arise, the great [angelic] prince who defends and has charge of your [Daniel’s] people. And there shall be a time of trouble, straitness, and distress such as never was since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the Book [of God’s plan for His own].

² And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence.

What do we read here? This is the REAL "end:" the end in our future. "At that time" is at the midpoint of the future 70th week (In Revelation marked by the 7th trumpet). Michael arises to kick Satan down. (Rev. 12).

Then Daniel summarized most of the book of Revelation in two verses: At this time of the end (the time of Jacob's trouble) there will be a time of trouble (same as Jesus described) But the Jews will be delivered (think the Battle of Armageddon and Christ's coming). Then Daniel jumps to the time of Rev. 20 and speaks of resurrections. 

Later on in the chapter Daniel wonders how long it will be to the end of these wonders (apparently the start is the time of trouble such as was never see before). Daniel is told time, times and half of time - or 3 1/2 years. 

Then someone gives Daniel a more precise STARTING time: when the man of sin enters the temple, (which is an abomination) declares he is God, and sets up an idol (probably of him!). Then, from this starting point (the midpoint of the week) the end will come on the 1290th day. That is 30 days after the week ends after the 3 1/2 years. In Revelation the week ends at the 7th vial, but Jesus does not return until 3 chapters later.

[iamlamad]

12 minutes ago, luigi said:

As I believe the third horseman whose policies enact in a work for sustenance program in what are now today third world nation once these nations' economies collapse; the four horsemen I then see correlating with the four leading type socio economic systems throughout the world. The white horse and its rider  are nations who in order to make their socio economic system viable require the natural resources the nations they conquer represent. 

The red horse and its rider are nations who in order to maintain their socio economic viability initiate civil strife and war among its member nations.

The fourth (gray, pale, grizzled) colored horse with its rider Death, who in allegiance with Hell, are nations who in order to maintain their socio economic systems viability initiate genocide among its member nations. Hell and Death also appear in Isaiah 28 in relation to the Middle East, and so I believe Middle Eastern nations (including Israel) to be nations of the fourth horseman.

The four horsemen of the Apocalypse representing the four leading type socio economic nations of the world can also be seen as the four different beasts in Daniel 7. And though these four beasts are currently separate from each other as described in Daniel 7, will upon the rising of the fourth beast from the sea be united together as one as seen in Revelation 13:2.

iamlamad, Use God's Word to put the pieces of the puzzle together, and not someones perspectives that contradict the Word, thereby rendering confusion.

Let's follow the WORD as you suggested: shall we?

99% of readers miss entirely the message given in chapters 4 & 5. How so, you might ask?

God had a problem: He wanted to introduce John to the book sealed with 7 seals, but wanted to START that part of the vision while the book was still in the hand of the Father.  It was 95 AD and Jesus got the book as soon as He ascended back into heaven. (Do you see a problem here?) So somehow God had to convey to John and to all the readers,  the correct timing. How was God going to do that?

God showed John in the vision, a throne room with God the Father on the throne, but NO JESUS at the right hand of the Father - when we have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He went to be.  Readers should wonder at this point: "I wonder why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father?"

Then later on in chapter 4,  John saw the Holy Spirit in heaven as the 7 spirits of God. Again, a reader might wonder, "why is the Holy Spirit in heaven? I thought Jesus sent Him down as soon as He ascended."

Then in chapter 5 the reader might wonder again: a search was made for one worthy to take the book and open the seals and NO MAN WAS FOUND!  WHAT? What is God trying to show us? WHY was "no man found?" If we read ahead, Jesus was found. But what is God trying to show us with a search that ended in failure? 

Now we have three unanswered questions. John wept much. I bugged God about that, and asked Him why we needed to know that john wept, and why include "much?"  God answered me: He said, "it shows timing," and "it shows the movement of time." I spent weeks looking, trying to find timing and any movement of time. I failed.  Then God spoke again and asked me those same questions I just asked.

The next verse, someone runs up to John and tells him he can stop weeping, for SOMEONE has been found!  Do you see a movement of time here? A time when NO man was found, to a time when Jesus was found!  But I was blind: I could not see that! 

 If we keep reading in chapter 5, suddenly we get a shock: John saw Jesus SUDDENLY appear in the throne room as a Lamb having been slain.  Where  was He a moment before this? He was absent! Of course; He was talking to Mary just before He ascended. Then at that same moment of time, Jesus sends the Holy Spirit down!  Wait a minute! I thought that happened way back around 32 AD, not in 95 AD! It DID happen in 32 AD: God is showing John a vision of the past.

What then is the message of chapters 4 & 5? God is not trying to hide things but reveal them. 

WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father? It has to do with TIMING. This is to show the reader that God was showing a throne room  - not of 95 AD - but a time while Jesus was still on earth!  Why was the Holy Spirit still in heaven in chapter 4? It was because AT THAT TIME (in the vision) Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down. 

Why was "no man found?" God was showing John that AT THAT TIME Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind. But IN THE NEXT VERSE, Jesus WAS found. What does this tell us? TIMING: Jesus had just risen from the dead!  Then in the next verse, John saw Jesus sudden appearance back in the throne room., Jesus had just ascended. And at that moment sent the Holy Spirit down.   

What was God's purpose in showing us this timing: that Jesus got the book into His hands as soon as He ascended? It is the CONTEXT for the first seal!  99.99% of readers pull the first seal out of its 32 AD context and insist it is something future to us today. 

The first seal, with the white horse, is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL John used to color white 17 times in Revelation, and ever other time to represent righteousness. There is absolutely NO WAY God would use "white" as in the white horse, to represent evil one time out of 17!  

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, but God LIMITED them in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the world.  Was Satan successful? NO! The gospel is everywhere today.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. They have NO IDEA how long this "age of grace" will continue before judgment can come. So they ask.  They are told they must wait for the very last martyr to be killed as they were killed - as church age martyrs. What then would make the final church age martyr?  Only one thing: the END of the church age. The age of Grace, or the church age will end at the rapture of the church! In short, they are told they must wait for the rapture that ends the church age - and THEN judgment will come. 

 

Most people want to jump the gun and make the 70th week begin at the first seal. That is error. WE cannot pull that first seal out of its first century context. 

I believe the third horseman whose policies enact in a work for sustenance program in what are now today third world nation You can believe what you want: but if you choose to follow the text as written, you must believe something different than what you now believe.  This is EARLY CHURCH HISTORY!

The white horse and its rider  are nations   NOT! As you can see, I disagree totally. The white horse and rider is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the gospel.  

The red horse and its rider are nations  NO! Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. 

Note: you are free to continue to believe as you do, but your theory will be wrong. 

[luigi]

44 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I will agree, in Daniel 7 he wrote of the 3 1/2 year period of time. He wrote it again in chapter 12. But chapter 8 has NOTHING to do with chapter 7 or chapter 12. It is about Persia and Greece.  Please note, Daniel did NOT write in any kind of chronology. It is like each chapter is a separate book at a different time.

 

The 3.5 times in Daniel 12:7 are in regards to the information shown Daniel in chapters 11 & 12, in which the two main players are the Northern and Southern kingdoms, who are also described as the kingdoms of Grecia and Persia. At the end of these two entities actions there is then a resurrection of many (Daniel 12:2). 

[luigi]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Let's follow the WORD as you suggested: shall we?

99% of readers miss entirely the message given in chapters 4 & 5. How so, you might ask?

God had a problem: He wanted to introduce John to the book sealed with 7 seals, but wanted to START that part of the vision while the book was still in the hand of the Father.  It was 95 AD and Jesus got the book as soon as He ascended back into heaven. (Do you see a problem here?) So somehow God had to convey to John and to all the readers,  the correct timing. How was God going to do that?

God showed John in the vision, a throne room with God the Father on the throne, but NO JESUS at the right hand of the Father - when we have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He went to be.  Readers should wonder at this point: "I wonder why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father?"

Then later on in chapter 4,  John saw the Holy Spirit in heaven as the 7 spirits of God. Again, a reader might wonder, "why is the Holy Spirit in heaven? I thought Jesus sent Him down as soon as He ascended."

Then in chapter 5 the reader might wonder again: a search was made for one worthy to take the book and open the seals and NO MAN WAS FOUND!  WHAT? What is God trying to show us? WHY was "no man found?" If we read ahead, Jesus was found. But what is God trying to show us with a search that ended in failure? 

Now we have three unanswered questions. John wept much. I bugged God about that, and asked Him why we needed to know that john wept, and why include "much?"  God answered me: He said, "it shows timing," and "it shows the movement of time." I spent weeks looking, trying to find timing and any movement of time. I failed.  Then God spoke again and asked me those same questions I just asked.

The next verse, someone runs up to John and tells him he can stop weeping, for SOMEONE has been found!  Do you see a movement of time here? A time when NO man was found, to a time when Jesus was found!  But I was blind: I could not see that! 

 If we keep reading in chapter 5, suddenly we get a shock: John saw Jesus SUDDENLY appear in the throne room as a Lamb having been slain.  Where  was He a moment before this? He was absent! Of course; He was talking to Mary just before He ascended. Then at that same moment of time, Jesus sends the Holy Spirit down!  Wait a minute! I thought that happened way back around 32 AD, not in 95 AD! It DID happen in 32 AD: God is showing John a vision of the past.

What then is the message of chapters 4 & 5? God is not trying to hide things but reveal them. 

WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father? It has to do with TIMING. This is to show the reader that God was showing a throne room  - not of 95 AD - but a time while Jesus was still on earth!  Why was the Holy Spirit still in heaven in chapter 4? It was because AT THAT TIME (in the vision) Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down. 

Why was "no man found?" God was showing John that AT THAT TIME Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind. But IN THE NEXT VERSE, Jesus WAS found. What does this tell us? TIMING: Jesus had just risen from the dead!  Then in the next verse, John saw Jesus sudden appearance back in the throne room., Jesus had just ascended. And at that moment sent the Holy Spirit down.   

What was God's purpose in showing us this timing: that Jesus got the book into His hands as soon as He ascended? It is the CONTEXT for the first seal!  99.99% of readers pull the first seal out of its 32 AD context and insist it is something future to us today. 

The first seal, with the white horse, is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL John used to color white 17 times in Revelation, and ever other time to represent righteousness. There is absolutely NO WAY God would use "white" as in the white horse, to represent evil one time out of 17!  

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, but God LIMITED them in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the world.  Was Satan successful? NO! The gospel is everywhere today.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. They have NO IDEA how long this "age of grace" will continue before judgment can come. So they ask.  They are told they must wait for the very last martyr to be killed as they were killed - as church age martyrs. What then would make the final church age martyr?  Only one thing: the END of the church age. The age of Grace, or the church age will end at the rapture of the church! In short, they are told they must wait for the rapture that ends the church age - and THEN judgment will come. 

 

Most people want to jump the gun and make the 70th week begin at the first seal. That is error. WE cannot pull that first seal out of its first century context. 

I believe the third horseman whose policies enact in a work for sustenance program in what are now today third world nation You can believe what you want: but if you choose to follow the text as written, you must believe something different than what you now believe.  This is EARLY CHURCH HISTORY!

The white horse and its rider  are nations   NOT! As you can see, I disagree totally. The white horse and rider is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the gospel.  

The red horse and its rider are nations  NO! Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. 

Note: you are free to continue to believe as you do, but your theory will be wrong. 

You provide multiple unsupported by scriptures conjectures. I can only restate my position in that I see the Lord providing us numerous like references to the 3.5 times so that we may recognize these for the same series of events during the end times. As such the 3.5 times in Daniel 7 which you agree correlates with the 3.5 times in Daniel 12:7 regarding the end times, which in turn refer to Greece and Persia during these end times, would then likewise correlate with the Greece and Persia in Daniel 8, which occur during the end times according to the angel Gabriel.

If as you stated in your previous post you see the 3.5 times in Daniel 7 representing end time events, the four beasts governments in Daniel 7 would then correlate with events described in the book of Revelation, which as I stated, I see to represent the four horsemen in Revelation 6 under the first four seals.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

The 3.5 times in Daniel 12:7 are in regards to the information shown Daniel in chapters 11 & 12, in which the two main players are the Northern and Southern kingdoms, who are also described as the kingdoms of Grecia and Persia. At the end of these two entities actions there is then a resurrection of many (Daniel 12:2). 

Agreed, PLUS chapter 7 that also includes the 3.5 years. Yes, agreed, the king of the North vs the King of the south over SEVERAL GENERATIONS. Agreed: the King of the North in different generations was the King of the Seleucus branch of the 4 generals.  But in 11:36 Daniel (led by the Holy Spirit) made a switch to the FINAL King of the North which is the Beast of REv. 13 and and end time scenario...in our future. 

At the end of these two entities actions there is then a resurrection of many (Daniel 12:2).   That resurrection is the same resurrections as seen in Rev. 20!  Look, Rev. 12:1 are the days of great tribulation that is ahead of us, in the world's future.  And that resurrection is still future. Daniel speaks of BOTH resurrections seen in Rev. 20.

Edited May 11, 2020 by iamlamad

[luigi]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Agreed, PLUS chapter 7 that also includes the 3.5 years. Yes, agreed, the king of the North vs the King of the south over SEVERAL GENERATIONS. Agreed: the King of the North in different generations was the King of the Seleucus branch of the 4 generals.  But in 11:36 Daniel (led by the Holy Spirit) made a switch to the FINAL King of the North which is the Beast of REv. 13 and and end time scenario...in our future. 

At the end of these two entities actions there is then a resurrection of many (Daniel 12:2).   That resurrection is the same resurrections as seen in Rev. 20!  Look, Rev. 12:1 are the days of great tribulation that is ahead of us, in the world's future.  And that resurrection is still future. Daniel speaks of BOTH resurrections seen in Rev. 20.

I guess we will just have to wait and see if Iran (formerly Persia and representing the 2nd horn on the ram in Dan 8), is soon invaded and annihilated by the he goat who traverses the whole earth from the West without touching the ground, or if you are correct and it represents some 2nd century BC event that you further claim represent the end time events in Daniel 8:17 & 19.

By the way how do you explain the he goat (representing Greece) traversing the whole earth from the West without touching the ground to annihilate Persia in the 2nd century BC?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

You provide multiple unsupported by scriptures conjectures. I can only restate my position in that I see the Lord providing us numerous like references to the 3.5 times so that we may recognize these for the same series of events during the end times. As such the 3.5 times in Daniel 7 which you agree correlates with the 3.5 times in Daniel 12:7 regarding the end times, which in turn refer to Greece and Persia during these end times, would then likewise correlate with the Greece and Persia in Daniel 8, which occur during the end times according to the angel Gabriel.

If as you stated in your previous post you see the 3.5 times in Daniel 7 representing end time events, the four beasts governments in Daniel 7 would then correlate with events described in the book of Revelation, which as I stated, I see to represent the four horsemen in Revelation 6 under the first four seals.

I don't know what your answer here has to do with Rev. 4 & 5. 

There are two references to the time, times and half of time in Daniel, 1 in chapter 7 and 1 in chapter 12. There are FIVE references to this same period of time in Revelation, given in days, months and times. 

I agree, both these mentions in Daniel 7 and Daniel 12 are for our future. But chapter 8 and any references in chapter 8 are for Antiochus and NOT for our future. 

Sorry, but just because there are 4 Beasts and 4 horsemen do not make them about the same thing! My friend, we don't form theories from isolated verses: we may theorize a statement, before it is a theory, and they check it with ALL end times scriptures before calling it a theory. And a verse should NEVER be considered out of its context.  The context of the 4 horsemen are early church. 

would then likewise correlate with the Greece and Persia in Daniel 8, which occur during the end times according to the angel Gabriel. If you are DETERMINED to pull those verses out if their 4 Generals context of The end times of Seleucus, you could IMAGINE they are for the end. But you would be wrong.  Go back and read it again: Gabriel said in the later time of THEIR kingdoms: whose? The four Generals, one of whom was Seleucus. Most of the chapter is for the later time of the Seleucus dynasty at the time of Antiochus. What he did may not be a big thing to you, but I can assure you, it was BIG to God, for he got right in God's face when he shut down the temple worship and the daily sacrifices. 

In other words, luigi, STOP PULLING VERSES OUT OF THEIR CONTEXT! The context of that was around 200 BC to 176 BC when Antiiochus slew a pig in the temple. The 2300 days was how long it took to get the temple cleansed again. 

Look, if you are determined to imagine, then imagine that SYRIA and EGYPT may well be in our future end times scenario. You can even imagine that the Beast of Rev. 13 just may come out of Syria. And this time you may be right. 

It seems you are going to have to have line upon line proof: Here is how God taught me these two chapters:

 I studied these chapters (4 & 5) for a few weeks, and finally got stuck on John weeping much. (It was the Holy Spirit, not me.) I could not seem to get away from that. I asked God why we needed to know that John wept, and why much? Finally He spoke and said only “It shows timing.” I heard His voice again, but this time recognized it was in my spirit.

I studied these chapters another couple of weeks, and could not find “timing” anywhere, so was frequently bugging God. Finally He spoke again and said, “it also show the movement of time.” I studied diligently, but I could not find any “movement of time” anywhere!

Finally God had mercy on me and spoke again:  “I will ask you three questions. Until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of John’s vision.” Then He asked me three questions.

This won’t be exactly word for word, for it has been a few years now, but it will be close.

1.“At the time John saw this vision, I had been back in heaven for years. There are many verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?”

I answered, “I cannot answer that question.” Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals.. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

 Again I answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again I said that I could not answer His question. He did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking, and bugging God for help.

Finally after two or three weeks of study, suddenly I heard His voice again! He said, “go and study chapter 12.” I did not want to. I was in an intense study of chapters 4 & 5, and the last thing I wanted to do was to go to another chapter. However, I was obedient, and flipped the pages to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, He spoke again.

“Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.” So I counted, 32 times.

I replied, “I see that this chapter is about the dragon. I counted 32 times.” He spoke again.

“I also chose to show John how the dragon attempted to to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a history lesson for John.”

I let that sink in, and suddenly He said, “now you can go back to chapters 4 & 5.”

I was amazed. I flipped back to the vision of the throne room, and in just a few minutes had the answer to all three questions! The key I needed was “history lesson.” I suddenly realized that John was looking into the throne room of the past, to a time perhaps just before Jesus rose from the dead.  

Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the father, for at that time was still on the earth or under the earth. From eternities past to eternities future, there has only been one small period of time where Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father, and that was while He was on earth. “No man was found” because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to be found worthy. Finally, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

Then, as we read into chapter 5, we see that another search was begun as soon as the other search had ended in failure. But this time someone was found! Someone came up to John and told him to stop weeping, for someone had been found worthy. Then John turned and saw a Lamb, having been slain. John got to see in vision form, the moment Jesus ascended, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Once Mary left Him, He ascended and entered the throne room, and John got to see this in the vision! Then we read that He came with the Holy Spirit, who was immediately sent down to the earth.

This vision of the throne room sets the context for the seals. When did Jesus ascend? Somewhere around 32 AD. The moment Jesus entered the throne room the first thing He did was get the scroll from the right hand of the Father and begin breaking the seals. No one can find 2000 years between any of these verses, because it is not there. The intent of the Author was to show that the first seals were broken about 32 AD.

The first seal then, the rider on the white horse, is to represent the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, if I counted right, and each time to represent righteousness. OF COURSE the white color of the horse is also to represent righteousness.

The second seal, with the red horse and rider, the third seal with the black horse and rider, and the 4th seal with the pale horse and rider are to represent the Dragon or Satan’s attempt to stop the advance of the church. They ride together but were limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. OF COURSE that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem. That would then include Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Where have all the famines in our lifetime been? Most have been in Africa? Where did the black plague hit? In Europe.

John wrote, “power was given unto them...” (6:8) I began to bug God about that: God, who is “them?” He answered, “it is right there in the verse: read it again.” It took me a while to find it. He wrote that “power was given unto them to kill with the sword”.....the red horse rider was given a great sword. “Power was given unto them to kill with hunger....and the black horse was to bring famine. “Power was given unto them to kill with death....and the pale horse rider was named “Death.” So I understood that these three ride together, while the white horse and rider rides alone. Of course these three riders failed to stop the church, for now the gospel can be found anywhere on the planet.

Next I noticed that at the 5th seal was the very first hint of a time of waiting. This time of waiting is the church age. I was puzzled about the answer given to those under the altar at the 5th seal. All those martyrs were not killed the same way; some were fed to lions, some were crucified, some lost their head....I knew that was not the Author’s intent. Finally I understood it: Those under the altar had to wait for the final martyr to be killed as they were: as CHURCH AGE martyrs.

Now, if you wish to disagree with the Head of the Church, of course you can - but it would not be wise. 

Note: this post assumes you have some idea of what chapters 4 & 5 say. If you don't, go and read it. 

Perhaps now you can understand why I will not be moved considering those first seals. I know the intent of the Author, because He taught me. 

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

8 minutes ago, luigi said:

I guess we will just have to wait and see if Iran (formerly Persia and representing the 2nd horn on the ram in Dan 8), is soon invaded and annihilated by the he goat who traverses the whole earth from the West without touching the ground, or if you are correct and it represents some 2nd century BC event that you further claim represent the end time events in Daniel 8:17 & 19.

By the way how do you explain the he goat (representing Greece) traversing the whole earth from the West without touching the ground to annihilate Persia in the 2nd century BC?

Sorry, just imagination: the He goat was Alexander and he is LONG GONE. Don't miss what I say: there is NOTHING in Daniel 8 about our future. Yes, it is possible that SYRIA and PERSIA may be involved  - but it won't be those ancient countries and it won't be a king that dies and four take his place. 

How? Alexander invented the "blitzkrieg." He covered a HUGE area in a short period of time with foot troops! How long would it take just to walk from Greece to India? That is probably close to 6000 KM! 

If you wish to look, you could find on line the letter Alexander sent to Darius of Persia, and you could read the details of the battle when he defeated Persia. 

[luigi]

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I don't know what your answer here has to do with Rev. 4 & 5. 

There are two references to the time, times and half of time in Daniel, 1 in chapter 7 and 1 in chapter 12. There are FIVE references to this same period of time in Revelation, given in days, months and times. 

I agree, both these mentions in Daniel 7 and Daniel 12 are for our future. But chapter 8 and any references in chapter 8 are for Antiochus and NOT for our future. 

Sorry, but just because there are 4 Beasts and 4 horsemen do not make them about the same thing! My friend, we don't form theories from isolated verses: we may theorize a statement, before it is a theory, and they check it with ALL end times scriptures before calling it a theory. And a verse should NEVER be considered out of its context.  The context of the 4 horsemen are early church. 

would then likewise correlate with the Greece and Persia in Daniel 8, which occur during the end times according to the angel Gabriel. If you are DETERMINED to pull those verses out if their 4 Generals context of The end times of Seleucus, you could IMAGINE they are for the end. But you would be wrong.  Go back and read it again: Gabriel said in the later time of THEIR kingdoms: whose? The four Generals, one of whom was Seleucus. Most of the chapter is for the later time of the Seleucus dynasty at the time of Antiochus. What he did may not be a big thing to you, but I can assure you, it was BIG to God, for he got right in God's face when he shut down the temple worship and the daily sacrifices. 

In other words, luigi, STOP PULLING VERSES OUT OF THEIR CONTEXT! The context of that was around 200 BC to 176 BC when Antiiochus slew a pig in the temple. The 2300 days was how long it took to get the temple cleansed again. 

Look, if you are determined to imagine, then imagine that SYRIA and EGYPT may well be in our future end times scenario. You can even imagine that the Beast of Rev. 13 just may come out of Syria. And this time you may be right. 

It seems you are going to have to have line upon line proof: Here is how God taught me these two chapters:

 I studied these chapters (4 & 5) for a few weeks, and finally got stuck on John weeping much. (It was the Holy Spirit, not me.) I could not seem to get away from that. I asked God why we needed to know that John wept, and why much? Finally He spoke and said only “It shows timing.” I heard His voice again, but this time recognized it was in my spirit.

I studied these chapters another couple of weeks, and could not find “timing” anywhere, so was frequently bugging God. Finally He spoke again and said, “it also show the movement of time.” I studied diligently, but I could not find any “movement of time” anywhere!

Finally God had mercy on me and spoke again:  “I will ask you three questions. Until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of John’s vision.” Then He asked me three questions.

This won’t be exactly word for word, for it has been a few years now, but it will be close.

1.“At the time John saw this vision, I had been back in heaven for years. There are many verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?”

I answered, “I cannot answer that question.” Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals.. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

 Again I answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again I said that I could not answer His question. He did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking, and bugging God for help.

Finally after two or three weeks of study, suddenly I heard His voice again! He said, “go and study chapter 12.” I did not want to. I was in an intense study of chapters 4 & 5, and the last thing I wanted to do was to go to another chapter. However, I was obedient, and flipped the pages to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, He spoke again.

“Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.” So I counted, 32 times.

I replied, “I see that this chapter is about the dragon. I counted 32 times.” He spoke again.

“I also chose to show John how the dragon attempted to to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a history lesson for John.”

I let that sink in, and suddenly He said, “now you can go back to chapters 4 & 5.”

I was amazed. I flipped back to the vision of the throne room, and in just a few minutes had the answer to all three questions! The key I needed was “history lesson.” I suddenly realized that John was looking into the throne room of the past, to a time perhaps just before Jesus rose from the dead.  

Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the father, for at that time was still on the earth or under the earth. From eternities past to eternities future, there has only been one small period of time where Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father, and that was while He was on earth. “No man was found” because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to be found worthy. Finally, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

Then, as we read into chapter 5, we see that another search was begun as soon as the other search had ended in failure. But this time someone was found! Someone came up to John and told him to stop weeping, for someone had been found worthy. Then John turned and saw a Lamb, having been slain. John got to see in vision form, the moment Jesus ascended, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Once Mary left Him, He ascended and entered the throne room, and John got to see this in the vision! Then we read that He came with the Holy Spirit, who was immediately sent down to the earth.

This vision of the throne room sets the context for the seals. When did Jesus ascend? Somewhere around 32 AD. The moment Jesus entered the throne room the first thing He did was get the scroll from the right hand of the Father and begin breaking the seals. No one can find 2000 years between any of these verses, because it is not there. The intent of the Author was to show that the first seals were broken about 32 AD.

The first seal then, the rider on the white horse, is to represent the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, if I counted right, and each time to represent righteousness. OF COURSE the white color of the horse is also to represent righteousness.

The second seal, with the red horse and rider, the third seal with the black horse and rider, and the 4th seal with the pale horse and rider are to represent the Dragon or Satan’s attempt to stop the advance of the church. They ride together but were limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. OF COURSE that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem. That would then include Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Where have all the famines in our lifetime been? Most have been in Africa? Where did the black plague hit? In Europe.

John wrote, “power was given unto them...” (6:8) I began to bug God about that: God, who is “them?” He answered, “it is right there in the verse: read it again.” It took me a while to find it. He wrote that “power was given unto them to kill with the sword”.....the red horse rider was given a great sword. “Power was given unto them to kill with hunger....and the black horse was to bring famine. “Power was given unto them to kill with death....and the pale horse rider was named “Death.” So I understood that these three ride together, while the white horse and rider rides alone. Of course these three riders failed to stop the church, for now the gospel can be found anywhere on the planet.

Next I noticed that at the 5th seal was the very first hint of a time of waiting. This time of waiting is the church age. I was puzzled about the answer given to those under the altar at the 5th seal. All those martyrs were not killed the same way; some were fed to lions, some were crucified, some lost their head....I knew that was not the Author’s intent. Finally I understood it: Those under the altar had to wait for the final martyr to be killed as they were: as CHURCH AGE martyrs.

Now, if you wish to disagree with the Head of the Church, of course you can - but it would not be wise. 

Note: this post assumes you have some idea of what chapters 4 & 5 say. If you don't, go and read it. 

Perhaps now you can understand why I will not be moved considering those first seals. I know the intent of the Author, because He taught me. 

 

I never brought up Syria and Egypt as you claim I did. I am not going to spend an hour or more responding to all the conjectures you present here. Can't you answer the correlations in scriptures I raised in just a few sentences or a couple of paragraphs rather than presenting an obfuscated massive quantity of unsubstantiated suppositions?