IN THE MIDST OF COVID19, WHAT'S NEXT IN BIBLE PROPHECY?

[iamlamad]

20 minutes ago, luigi said:

I hope you are not twisting what I say to mean that I do not believe in being caught up to God, because I do believe in a spiritual rapture as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 , 2 Corinthians 12:2 & 4, and Revelation 12:5 & 17. This spiritual rapture occurs after the great tribulation, which also referred to as the day of the Lord, is only now in its beginning stages; the beginning of sorrows.

Where you miss it:

John shows us that the Day of the Lord begins BEFORE the 70th week, and at the 6th seal. The 70th week begins with the 7th seal and the 30 minutes of silence.

What happens first at the rapture? It is the dead in Christ rising. HOW do they rise? Their OLD body in the grave is put back together, changed to a resurrection body, and flies up out of the ground into the air. How then can you say it is spiritual? It is their old physical body that is raised and changed. 

You missed it on the timing: we find the timing of the rapture in 1 Thes. 5. It will happen, according to Paul, just before the Day of the Lord and just before the start of God's wrath. Again this points to the 6th seal.  It is no mistaken then that the 6th seal comes right after the 5th seal - which is for the martyrs of the church age. Stephen, for example, would have had no idea how long the church age would go on - how long before judgment would come. So they asked. They were told they would have to wait for the very last martyr to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs. What will cause the very last martyr they have to wait for? Of course the rapture that will END the church age or the age of grace: judgment is not coming until after the age of grace. 

The church then has been waiting at the 5th seal since the first martyr - waiting on the last martyr or waiting on the rapture that will end the church age. The rapture then - PAUL'S rapture - will come a moment before that earthquake at the 6th seal. The earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction. This earthquake will be caused by the resurrection of the dead in Christ - so it will be a worldwide earthquake.  (Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened.")

The beginning of sorrows started with the church age.

By the way, the Day of the Lord will start violently - with a worldwide earthquake. All will know it is the Day of the Lord. Without a doubt, the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, luigi said:

Rather than all the commentaries from individuals whose perspectives twist the Word, I prefer to use the Word in one area to corroborate the Word in another. I have done this and I know the truth.

I would have to say, you may THINK you know, when in fact, you probably don't. 

[luigi]

22 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Where you miss it:

John shows us that the Day of the Lord begins BEFORE the 70th week, and at the 6th seal. The 70th week begins with the 7th seal and the 30 minutes of silence.

What happens first at the rapture? It is the dead in Christ rising. HOW do they rise? Their OLD body in the grave is put back together, changed to a resurrection body, and flies up out of the ground into the air. How then can you say it is spiritual? It is their old physical body that is raised and changed. 

You missed it on the timing: we find the timing of the rapture in 1 Thes. 5. It will happen, according to Paul, just before the Day of the Lord and just before the start of God's wrath. Again this points to the 6th seal.  It is no mistaken then that the 6th seal comes right after the 5th seal - which is for the martyrs of the church age. Stephen, for example, would have had no idea how long the church age would go on - how long before judgment would come. So they asked. They were told they would have to wait for the very last martyr to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs. What will cause the very last martyr they have to wait for? Of course the rapture that will END the church age or the age of grace: judgment is not coming until after the age of grace. 

The church then has been waiting at the 5th seal since the first martyr - waiting on the last martyr or waiting on the rapture that will end the church age. The rapture then - PAUL'S rapture - will come a moment before that earthquake at the 6th seal. The earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction. This earthquake will be caused by the resurrection of the dead in Christ - so it will be a worldwide earthquake.  (Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened.")

The beginning of sorrows started with the church age.

By the way, the Day of the Lord will start violently - with a worldwide earthquake. All will know it is the Day of the Lord. Without a doubt, the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. 

There are numerous references to the day of the Lord throughout the bible iamlamad. The day of the Lord is symbolic representing the time period in which the Lord shakes both the earth and heavens (Hebrews 12:26-27). On the earth it will be the worst of times (Daniel 12:1) in which those things that can be shaken out shall be shaken out, and in the heavens it will be the dragon and his angels who will be shaken out and cast out into the earth (Revelation 12:9). It starts somewhat slowly as the Lord describes in the Olivet discourse, wars, earthquakes, famines, and pestilences (such as is covid-19), representing just the beginning of sorrows.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

There are numerous references to the day of the Lord throughout the bible iamlamad. The day of the Lord is symbolic representing the time period in which the Lord shakes both the earth and heavens (Hebrews 12:26-27). On the earth it will be the worst of times (Daniel 12:1) in which those things that can be shaken out shall be shaken out, and in the heavens it will be the dragon and his angels who will be shaken out and cast out into the earth (Revelation 12:9). It starts somewhat slowly as the Lord describes in the Olivet discourse, wars, earthquakes, famines, and pestilences (such as is covid-19), representing just the beginning of sorrows.

Agreed: there are many verses about the Day of the Lord; but ONLY ONE tells us WHEN in relation to other end time events. It will begin at the 6th seal. To summarize all the Old Testament verses on "the Day," it will be a dark day when God's plan is to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth.  Then Paul also gives us timing information on "the Day:" it will come immediately after the rapture - the rapture being the trigger for the Day. (1 Thes. 5)

Sorry, you are missing it again! Jesus does not even mention "the day of the Lord" in his end times discourse. Neither is there a verse saying it will start out slowly. That is all human imagination. I think it will start with the worldwide earthquake. 

[luigi]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Agreed: there are many verses about the Day of the Lord; but ONLY ONE tells us WHEN in relation to other end time events. It will begin at the 6th seal. To summarize all the Old Testament verses on "the Day," it will be a dark day when God's plan is to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth.  Then Paul also gives us timing information on "the Day:" it will come immediately after the rapture - the rapture being the trigger for the Day. (1 Thes. 5)

Sorry, you are missing it again! Jesus does not even mention "the day of the Lord" in his end times discourse. Neither is there a verse saying it will start out slowly. That is all human imagination. I think it will start with the worldwide earthquake. 

The great tribulation which is the worst of times (Daniel 12:1), is the day of the Lord, in which it is the worst of times. It is amazing to me that whatever common sense deductive reasoning correlations in scripture I present to you about anything, you cannot recognize any, but instead prefer the testaments of man.

[iamlamad]

43 minutes ago, luigi said:

The great tribulation which is the worst of times (Daniel 12:1), is the day of the Lord, in which it is the worst of times. It is amazing to me that whatever common sense deductive reasoning correlations in scripture I present to you about anything, you cannot recognize any, but instead prefer the testaments of man.

I am sorry, but you are mistaken. These two terms, "the Day of the Lord" and "the great tribulation" are not interchangeable and do not mean the same thing.  

First, what do you mean by "the great tribulation?" If one searched the KJV for this term, it is not found.  People have put this title on a 3 1/2 year period of time.  (The last half of the 70th week.) God has not. Jesus said there would be "those days" of "great tribulation."  He also said, after "the tribulation" of those days.  The days of GT will be shortened but the last half of the week will remain at 1260 days. 

Can we just believe John and not come up with human reasoning? John starts "the day of the Lord" at the 6th seal, and then starts "the 70th week" ("Jacob's trouble") at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.  The truth is, the Day of the Lord will be at least 1007 years long. Many people believe the 1000 year reign of Christ is included in "The Day of the Lord."

It should not be amazing to you.  I only recognize what is written, not "deductive reasoning." If your reasoning followed what is written, of course I would agree. This is just one example. You have not understood the terms as written in the text of the bible. 

Why not just believe what is written AS it is written? 

Let's see if there is anything we can agree on:

Can you agree what the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal?

Can you agree what the time of Jacob's trouble starts at the 7th seal?

Can you agree that the exactly midpoint of the week is marked by the 7th trumpet?

Can you agree that the week ends at the 7th vial?

Can you agree what the first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended: around 32 AD?

Can you agree that John did not see the rapture, so did not write about it?

Can you agree that Paul's rapture comes just before wrath?

I hope there is at least one point we can agree on.

[luigi]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am sorry, but you are mistaken. These two terms, "the Day of the Lord" and "the great tribulation" are not interchangeable and do not mean the same thing.  

First, what do you mean by "the great tribulation?" If one searched the KJV for this term, it is not found.  People have put this title on a 3 1/2 year period of time.  (The last half of the 70th week.)

 

Can you not recognize correlation between the worst of times in Daniel 12:1, regarding the events which are to come in Daniel 11 and 12, as the great tribulation? This is what is meant by deductive reasoning. 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, luigi said:

Can you not recognize correlation between the worst of times in Daniel 12:1, regarding the events which are to come in Daniel 11 and 12, as the great tribulation? This is what is meant by deductive reasoning. 

Yes, of course I can. But again, the bible does not put a title on the last half of the week. There will be "those days" of "great tribulation." 

From Daniel 11, he marches straight through time, through generation after generation of the king of the north versus the king of the south. But many people believe that in 11:36 he changes to the future and the Beast of Rev. 13. So from verse 36 on gives us a little picture of what he will be doing - but probably not in any kind of chronology. Then in 12:1 it is the days of GT. 

In this case your reasoning is right on. Good job.

[luigi]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, of course I can. But again, the bible does not put a title on the last half of the week. There will be "those days" of "great tribulation." 

From Daniel 11, he marches straight through time, through generation after generation of the king of the north versus the king of the south. But many people believe that in 11:36 he changes to the future and the Beast of Rev. 13. So from verse 36 on gives us a little picture of what he will be doing - but probably not in any kind of chronology. Then in 12:1 it is the days of GT. 

In this case your reasoning is right on. Good job.

Yes iamlamad, Daniel 11 does march straight through time; ......but how much time? In Daniel 10:13 the Lord informs Daniel that the Prince of Persia (Iran today), resists Him for 21 days, after which the Lord then informs Daniel that He must return to the future (Daniel 10:20) where this event is occurring with only Michael there to assist Him in the unfolding of the events in Daniel 11 and 12 (Daniel 10:21). As one of the chief princes, Michael appears to assist the Lord throughout the 21 days in which the prince of Persia withstands the Lord, and both prince Michael and the prince of Persia are individuals,...the 21 days would then represents a period of time within these humans lifetimes, and therefore in all likelihood represents a period of 21 years, with a year corresponding to each day. As for the events in Daniel 11:36 in which the little horn magnifies himself, and who takes away the daily sacrifice (Daniel 11:31), thereby correlating with the little horn who magnifies himself and takes away the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:11; these are the 2300 days in which the little horn (a.k.a., the antichrist) completes before the cleansing of our sanctuary in the Lord (Daniel 8:14). And yes I do agree with you that Daniel 12:1 in which prince Michael stands up for those who believe in truth, represents the GT, which is that also represented in Daniel 11:30-36, and Daniel 8:24.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21  But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Edited May 15, 2020 by luigi

[iamlamad]

54 minutes ago, luigi said:

Yes iamlamad, Daniel 11 does march straight through time; ......but how much time? In Daniel 10:13 the Lord informs Daniel that the Prince of Persia (Iran today), resists Him for 21 days, after which the Lord then informs Daniel that He must return to the future (Daniel 10:20) where this event is occurring with only Michael there to assist Him in the unfolding of the events in Daniel 11 and 12 (Daniel 10:21). As one of the chief princes, Michael appears to assist the Lord throughout the 21 days in which the prince of Persia withstands the Lord, and both prince Michael and the prince of Persia are individuals,...the 21 days would then represents a period of time within these humans lifetimes, and therefore in all likelihood represents a period of 21 years, with a year corresponding to each day. As for the events in Daniel 11:36 in which the little horn magnifies himself, and who takes away the daily sacrifice (Daniel 11:31), thereby correlating with the little horn who magnifies himself and takes away the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:11; these are the 2300 days in which the little horn (a.k.a., the antichrist) completes before the cleansing of our sanctuary in the Lord (Daniel 8:14). And yes I do agree with you that Daniel 12:1 in which prince Michael stands up for those who believe in truth, represents the GT, which is that also represented in Daniel 11:30-36, and Daniel 8:24.

I have seen several very thorough studies of Daniel 11 matching with historic events. When we put together Daniel 8 and Daniel 11, there is no doubt that some verses in Dan. 11 are in reference to Antiochus Epiphanes. Here is one example from the Amplified bible:

²⁸ Then he (Antiochus IV Epiphanes) will return to his land with great treasure (plunder); and his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and return to his own land (Syria).

You can try and use human reasoning here and make what 99% of the Christian world considers history into something future, but when the future events of Revelation play out, your theories will be found in error. 

YOu would do well to study these texts in the Amplified text:

Dan. 10: ²⁰ Then he said, “Do you understand [fully] why I came to you? Now I shall return to fight against the [hostile] ^[f]prince of Persia; and when I have gone, behold, the ^[g]prince of Greece is about to come. ²¹ But I (Gabriel) will tell you what is inscribed in the ^[h]writing of truth. There is no one who stands firmly with me and strengthens himself against these [hostile spirit forces] except Michael, your prince [the guardian of your nation].

 Notice how these translators put it? Daniel is talking about "principalities and powers:" demonic forces over nations. And again, this is HISTORY, not future.  However, we can be very sure, Iran has spirits in high places today: wicked spiritual forces determined to keep the gospel of our Lord OUT. 

In the end, hearing from the Teacher, the Holy Spirit, is far better than the very best human reasoning.   At the same time, it is very difficult to study Revelation or Daniel and try to form theories without ANY human reasoning, even with God's help.  When JEsus spoke words to me and told me I could find the exact midpoint of the 70th week "clearly marked" in Revelation, I still had to use some human reasoning to find it. I had asked Him "how would I find that?" (It was my spirit man asking; I was "in the spirit" and could not ask.) 

He answered, "every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the midpoint."

I already knew of the 5 mentions of this 3 1/2 year period of time, in Revelation chapters 11 through 13. So with NO human reasoning I knew that all five mentions of the 3 1/2 years were for the last half of the week. But time after time, someone tells me that the two witnesses' 1260 days is the FIRST HALF. I know they are mistaken. I also knew from His words that there IS an exact midpoint "clearly marked." All I had to do is find it, somewhere in chapters 11 through 13. I also knew then that if there is an "exact midpoint" then both the first half and second half will be 1260 days. God knows how to divide in half.  I have had people tell me that the "midpoint" is not exact: they use the 2300 days and back-feed it into the 2520 days (Not at all what God intended) and come up with a midpoint NOT exact. It is human reasoning gone wild. However, with all this, I STILL had to use some human reasoning or deduction to find that "exact midpoint" clearly marked.

I will agree with you then that I too use human reasoning to some extent. Truthfully, when the Holy Spirit teaches with a "down load:" a "knowing" without words, it may seem like someone reasoned it out. But it was the Holy Spirit teaching. For example, after Jesus spoke words  - that I could find the exact midpoint clearly marked - He ended that teaching session with: "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'"  At that moment in time, I got a down load - a "knowing" without words: the REASON I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" is because God used the same "marker" for the start of the week, the midpoint of the week and the end of the week. That was revelation knowledge that came without words.  So once I found that "exact midpoint" marked with a "7," the 7th trumpet, I then knew I had found the entire week "clearly marked:" the 7th seal and the 7th vial.  This knowledge did not come from human reasoning. 

If someone approaches Revelation for the first time, and just tries to "reason it out," they end up with WILD ideas....like yours.