Pre-Wrath Rapture

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, The Light said:

The trump of God is the voice of God.

Rev 1

¹⁰ I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

¹¹ Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:..........

Rev 4

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

These examples are similes and are not literal. John is likening the qualities of the trumpet sound to the voice.

20 hours ago, The Light said:

Exo 19

¹⁶ And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

 

Here it's not a simile but it's not analogous to the voice of God. It's the voice of the trumpet. We are trying to find the trumpet of God, and there is no equivalency here.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Here are some weaknesses in the Pre-wrath rapture:

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 31 are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:5; 6:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

A final weakness of the pre-wrath rapture view is shared by the other theories: viz., the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.

https://www.gotquestions.org/pre-wrath-rapture.html

Point 1)  The 'elect' are the favorites. 

eklektós (an adjective, derived from 1586 /eklégomai, "to select, choose," also used as a substantive/noun) – properly, selected (chosen from, out of), especially as a deeply personal choice – literally "chosen, out of a personal preference (intention)." See 1586 (eklegomai).

Typically, 1588 /eklektós ("select, chosen") describes people who choose to follow the Lord, i.e. become God's choice by freely receiving faith (4102 /pístis) from Him. Accordingly, these two terms are directly connected (see Tit 1:1; Lk 18:7,8).

I would think this describes members of the Christian faith perfectly. And if you are not "select, by implication favorite" then where does that leave you?

Point 2)  What are the seals exactly? Where in scripture does it label them as judgement or wrath, or any other idea? When there is a distinct label in a direct statement this is the truth and adding to that is dangerous. Rev 11 says wrath begins at the 7th trump;

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come," - Rev 11:18 It's impossible wrath began at the 1st seal when scripture states it begins at the 7th trump.

Point 3)  This is logical fallacy. Trying to support a position by the weakness of other positions is just sad. "All the other positions have problems therefore, our position is correct." 

It's too bad people cannot see though this kind of foolishness. But it's also false prima facie in all respects. Scripture does give an exact timeline and most certainly teaches but a single view of soon to be fulfilled prophecy. To say it does not makes scripture unreliable and the voice of man paramount. But this is the best Pretrib can do since it has no real evidence for it's position.

 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

You originally quoted Rev 10:7, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The Greek term shown below is a move to the next phase. It doesn't mean it's over, it means the consummation is about to begin.

"teléō (from 5056 /télos, "consummation, completion") – properly, to complete (consummate), i.e. finish (qualitatively) the necessary process – with the results "rolling-over" to the next level (phase) of consummation. See 5056 (telos)."

So then the 7th trump declares the beginning of the final phase of the process, not the end of the actions.

So we see when the 7th angel sounds, the kingdoms of this world ARE become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ. That means that Jesus has returned to the earth and the nations have been defeated by the armies of heaven.

Rev 11

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Here we find the final phase of the process that you are looking for.

Rev 11

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[The Light]

17 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

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The scroll with seven seals is like a play written, orders that take place at another time. When Jesus arrived in heaven in 32 AD, He opened the scroll. How else would we know what was inside?

We know what's inside the scroll because John had a Revelation. The seven seals are not opened.

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The trumpet and bowl events fall within the seals events. It is like a transparent sphere, multidimensional. As you turn the sphere you see different vantage points of tho he that overlap and are a cumulative. This is why this book is so confusing and has many views. 

The trumpets and vials are just a different view of Gods wrath. Neither can happen until the 7th seal is opened.

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It is not written in a linear, chronological order.

Bingo. Just hope that Iamlamad doesn't see this.
 

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Here is proof that the seventh trumpet is the famed last trumpet, when our resurrection/rapture occurs.

Many things occur after the seventh trumpet sounds. Revelation 11:15-19 tells us:

* Christ appears.            * The resurrection of the Church   (Rec. 11:15 is the same event as Rev. 7:9, just a different vantage point. Rev. 7:14 confirms that the great multitude, just came out of the Great Tribulation, washed by the blood of Christ)                             * The Kingdoms of the world become the Lord's * The dead ( in Hades) are resurrected and judged                             * We receive rewards according to our deeds   * The Temple of God in Heaven is open               * The Bowls of God's wrath are released upon the earth.

 

Here is the proof that you are wrong. You say that Rev 11:15 is the same event as Rev 7:9. Totally incorrect. The great multitude happens after this event.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This is the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs prior to the Day of the Lord.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven as they are raptured in the SECRET pretrib rapture. The 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth are gathered from the earth in the prewrath rapture. Both groups return to heaven for the marriage supper. The nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection.

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[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

These examples are similes and are not literal. John is likening the qualities of the trumpet sound to the voice.

Here it's not a simile but it's not analogous to the voice of God. It's the voice of the trumpet. We are trying to find the trumpet of God, and there is no equivalency here.

I like to go to Zechariah for the trumpet of God and the timing of the rapture:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of hosts will defend them.
And they will devour and trample on the sling stones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them in that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

Concerning the voice of God being the trumpet of God, there's this verse to consider:

• Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.  John 5:28-29

Hearing His voice brings a resurrection.

[The Light]

19 hours ago, missmuffet said:

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Here are some weaknesses in the Pre-wrath rapture:

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 31 are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Exactly. The prewrath rapture is not about the Church. It is about the 12 tribes that are across the earth. They are the ones that are raptured as their blindness is removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The fullness of the Gentiles comes in with the SECRET pre tribulation rapture, before the seals are opened. Those that flee are those in the nation of Israel that do not yet have their blindness removed. They are not raptured in the pre wrath rapture but go through Gods wrath in a place of protection. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

 

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Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:5; 6:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

The 1st 5 seals are the tribulation period. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns with the opening of the 6th seal. This is when the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes occurs. (but not the nation of Israel itself) The wrath of God begins with the opening of the 7th seal.

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/pre-wrath-rapture.html

 

[RonaldBruno]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

 

Disagree. You are entitled to one of many views.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

I like to go to Zechariah for the trumpet of God and the timing of the rapture:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of hosts will defend them.
And they will devour and trample on the sling stones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them in that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

Concerning the voice of God being the trumpet of God, there's this verse to consider:

• Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.  John 5:28-29

Hearing His voice brings a resurrection.

Yes. Very specific. I see more inference applied to the trump of God as concerning the coming of the Lord and the gathering in the Epistles. It may be the Lord does indeed blow the trumpet Himself at that time but I'm not convinced the last trump, or the 7th trump, is that trump. As I think you have said the 7th trump is not the same as the trump of God. That seems right in light of the quoted passage. Zech 9 sure covers a lot of time very quickly.

About the voice bringing a resurrection I agree. Jesus descends with a shout, the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God. I'm good there. 

[The Light]

5 minutes ago, RonaldBruno said:

Disagree. You are entitled to one of many views.

If you could use scripture to prove what I say is wrong, I'm listening. That's how you learn.

[dhchristian]

On 4/5/2020 at 10:31 PM, JasonPerkins said:

Though out my studies of scripture I have come to the conclusion that we will be rapture'd at the last trumpet (7th Trumpet) spoken of in revelations.  (1Co 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)   I dont associate the Tribulation as God's wrath.  God's wrath is what happens after the 7th Trumpet where he pours out the vials of his wrath on the those whom worshiped the beast.  Jesus said you will have tribulation in this world (meaning tribulation comes from this evil world and is not God's wrath) (Jhn 16:33 KJV - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.)  We are promised tribulation in this world, yet we are not appointed unto God's wrath.  These are two different things.  I do believe at the 7th Trumpet we will be raptured up to meet Yahshua in the clouds of heaven where we join him in the marriage supper of the Lamb, while the vials of wrath are being poured out on those whom chose to follow the beast.  Then afterward we will return with him to rule and reign on earth.

An unbiased reading of revelation will lead to this conclusion, the problem is too many have preconceived biases as they begin reading revelation, which force them to insert the rapture at a certain point. When the saints are no more on earth is when the rapture occurs.