The Two Phases of Christ's Return

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Eddy Crocker said:

I love how I’m taken out of context to try prove your own point. Read and post all of what I said not in isolated bits and pieces otherwise your twist the context of what I wrote. 
The context of how I wrote it was I said scripture doesn’t contradict itself if it does then that means our interpretation of it is wrong. 
My context was in a reply to someone saying every eye shall see him of whom they pierced. Theres 2 other verses I quoted saying the Kingdom of God cometh without observation. The other verse I quoted was the Lord is coming as a thief in the night. 
You have 2 opposing verses that contradict another verse  seeing with physical eyes themselves. If interpreted literally or physically. 
A thief is not seen until it’s too late but you don’t see the thief. Also the kingdom doesn’t come with an observation. That’s what scripture says. How can all these scriptures not contradict themselves unless they are interpreted as spiritual eyes and not literal eyes. I didn’t say all of scripture shouldn’t be interpreted literally of the history of his life. Only scripture that contradicts itself I don’t interpret literally.

"

“The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 

"

A reference to the Holy Spirit in the believer is what Jesus is saying in Luke 17:20. He's contradicting the Jewish notion of a great earthly kingdom ruled by a secular king which is what the religious Jews desired. In Luke 17:24 we see Jesus state what the physical return of the Son on Man looks like.

When passages of scripture seems to be in opposition it's because our understanding is incomplete, and not because it's spiritual. There are too many scriptures that tell of a physical return of Jesus and a physical kingdom on earth, Revelation for instance, and a host of other happenings that will occur in the natural world. 

And I did not twist the context, I ignored it and commented on your conclusion. I have seen this before and it pares the truth down to personal belief.  

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Diaste, I would have thought that you would know that I agree that EVERY EYE will see Christ at His second coming  (Rev. 1:7).  Absolutely!!!   I believe our difference is that you are of the post-trib persuasion and I am of the pre-trib persuasion (howbeit, not according to the common view).  The reason for my "heap of rhetoric"  is to more fully clarify how I am seeing things, for I have never seen this put forth in the web world or in print.  Kinda the reason for my avatar, not an echo.

It's not a persuasion, it's what is written. There won't be a pretrib rapture as only one gathering is fully described and it comes after the A of D and great tribulation that are both near to the return of Jesus.

I'm becoming more and more convinced the construction of the world is not what is presented. I cannot accept a single proposition stemming from lack of observation yet wholly relying on equations and fancy words spoken at high brow gatherings. 

Yes, I know you are relating your ideas. As long as it's acknowledged it's just personal belief and not the unvarnished truth I'm fine with it.

[douggg]

14 hours ago, Eddy Crocker said:

Baptism in the New Testament is coming from the water to the wine of the Spirit by immersing people in the gospel of how Christ died, was buried and rose again, This is the fulfillment of what the 2 witnesses brought in to the Gentiles 7 years after the day of Pentecost.

Eddy, how do you account for the two witnesses will be killed by the beast?      If Revelation 11, and the 7 years, are already fulfilled prophecy. 

 

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

 

[Eddy Crocker]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

Eddy, how do you account for the two witnesses will be killed by the beast?      If Revelation 11, and the 7 years, are already fulfilled prophecy. 

 

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

 

 Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 

The beast in Revelation is self love and the Dragon is pride. Their depicted allegorical and parabolically because how can you understand your nature that’s unseen except it be clothed by something physical to understand something you can’t see.

Romans 1:19-20 

¹⁹ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

²⁰ For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

This  verse in Romans shows how we understand the invisible things of God by the things that are made.

Just like it talks about the serpent beguiled Eve. Do you really think it was a snake flapping its mouth and telling Eve to eat of the tree? Come on how shallow are you? We perfectly understand a spiritual angel Satan and his nature the comparison of a serpent. The two witnesses had to die because they were still under the curse of the first Adam until our own personal day of Pentecost and the day appointed by the father where we are raised from death unto life.    

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 

⁵⁵ O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

⁵⁶ The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

⁵⁷ But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 
 

[not an echo]

Hello all,

Following is a chart I have developed to illustrate the basics of how I am seeing things concerning the timing of the rapture in relation to other events.  It is based upon the Seven Sealed Book of The Revelation and is from the perspective of the Cross, the era of the Church (here shown as the Church Age), the Day of the Lord, and Eternity:

In harmony with the first three verses of The Revelation, the testimony of history, and more, the first four seals were opened as early as late in the first century (post-apostolic/Rev. 1:1-3 with the "hereafter" of 1:19 and 4:1).  This means that the activities of Satan, exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen, have been forces to be reckoned with by the Church since the days of the apostles.  Hence, the first four seals are shown to be open early in the era of the Church, or Church Age.

Like unto a major battle, many in our ranks have suffered and died as martyrs.  At the opening of the 5th Seal, John receives a vision of the cry of these martyrs for justice.  Because their question, "How long?" (Rev. 6:10) reflects that a significant period of time has transpired, and because they are assured that it will be yet "a little season" before their blood is avenged, this fits this seal being opened nearer the end of the era of the Church, closer to the time of the rapture.  As we do not know when the rapture may occur, this seal may already be open as well...and I believe that it is.  The martyrs are informed that during the "little season,"  more will be killed "as they were" (Rev. 6:11).  This is certainly in tune with Daniel's 70th Week (a little season) and what will happen to the two witnesses, the 144,000, and those who refuse allegiance to the Antichrist.

Though we do not know how much longer the era of the Church will continue, we know that it will end with the rapture, which is shown to occur after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17, Matt. 24:29-31ff, I Thess. 4:13-5:11, II Thess. 2:1).  Therefore, as Christ's coming for the rapture is imminent, so is the Lamb's opening of this seal.  I can almost envision the Lord, upon opening this seal, coming for His Bride!  When He does, He will "descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."  This will take place "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye."  Concurrent with this, the signs heralding the Day of the Lord will be seen, in accord with Joel's prophecy:  "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible Day of the LORD come" (Joel 2:31).  These signs could be said to occur in the wake of the resurrection and the rapture of the Church.  Note that this is further reinforced by Peter's appeal to this prophecy on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21).  When Joel's prophecy is understood to also point to the Church era or age, it is remarkable that he prophesied of things that would mark the very day of both the commencement and the conclusion of this age.  Talk about precision---Thank you Joel!  Also, at this same time, the bottom is going to drop out of things in this world, to the tune of the rest of John's account of the 6th Seal and what follows.

It is not until the 7th Seal is opened that the Seven Sealed Book can actually unfold.  Because of the absence of any mention of a time frame, this opening of the 7th Seal can occur the same day that the Church is gathered to glory and the 144,000 Jews are sealed.  After this last seal is opened, John writes, "there was silence in Heaven about the space of half an hour" (Rev. 8:1).  Try to imagine the drama and suspense of this book being now ready to unfold.

It easily fits that everything within the covers of the Seven Sealed Book pertains to the period of the Day of the Lord, hence, THE DAY OF THE LORD would be a fitting title for this book.  On the same day as the rapture---which begins the Day of the Lord---John sees seven angels that are given seven trumpets and what occurs after each trumpet is sounded.  The first six trumpets relate to preparations---a world stage reset, if you will---for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  During the time frame of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 9:13-11:14), after the interlude concerning the "little book open" (Rev. 10/DANIEL!/Dan. 12:4, 8-10), we find the first evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having actually begun (Rev. 11:1-3).  Finally, the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:14-19ff) heralds a period that takes in the remainder of Daniel's 70th Week and continues through the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).  The highlight of this period will be Christ's Second Advent, the Battle of Armageddon, and Christ's Millennial Reign.  After the Last Judgment, time, as we now know it, will end, and eternity, as we will know it, will begin.  From another angle, the Day of the Lord will bring to an end this world and time as we know it, after which, we will enter eternity.  Revelation 21 begins John's account of that and what it will hold for God's children.  As I'm thinking about what John saw at this time, my mind goes to that song by the Hoppers---Jerusalem.  I just love that song!  I'm going to listen to it now...

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustration

[Uriah]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

But Uriah, Jesus says some things more.  Concerning the days of Noah, He said "they did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day..." (Lk. 17:27).  And concerning the days of Lot, He said, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;  they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded..." (Lk. 17:28).  I cannot even imagine that this is descriptive of what the state of affairs will be in the world on the day Christ returns for the Battle of Armageddon.  Or, on the day prior. Or the month prior, or the year prior!

Your reasonings do not change the words of Jesus. They are to be BELIEVED, even if you don't understand. The focus that Jesus is pointing to is about His coming. 

[douggg]

5 hours ago, Eddy Crocker said:

The beast in Revelation is self love and the Dragon is pride. Their depicted allegorical and parabolically because how can you understand your nature that’s unseen except it be clothed by something physical to understand something you can’t see.

How does the above apply to...after the two witnesses finish their testimony?

 Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

I don't think it is speaking allegorical.

 

 

[douggg]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Though we do now know how much longer the era of the Church will continue, we know that it will end with the rapture, which is shown to occur after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17, Matt. 24:29-31ff, I Thess. 4:13-5:11, II Thess. 2:1).  Therefore, as Christ's coming for the rapture is imminent, so is the Lamb's opening of this seal.  I can almost envision the Lord, upon opening this seal, coming for His Bride! 

Hi not an echo,

I think you are using the wrong indicator for the immanency of the rapture.    I don't think the rapture is found in Revelation, except for John being called up in Revelation 4 as a picture of the rapture.

The events of seals, as they are opened (with the exception of the 7th seal), are sequential events.     Differently, it appears that you are viewing them concurrently, going on since the first century to present.     In your view, you are flattening the events across 2000 years.    

I don't think that is the case.   But an intense period of time of the 7 year 70th week.   Given a crown, then war breaking out, then famine, then death, then martyrs, then Jesus seen in heaven - about to end it all.

Regarding the rapture, I would suggest Luke 21:34-36.    In conjunction with the parable of the fig tree in Matthew 24.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

On 4/20/2020 at 8:06 PM, Uriah said:

On 4/20/2020 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

But Uriah, Jesus says some things more.  Concerning the days of Noah, He said "they did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day..." (Lk. 17:27).  And concerning the days of Lot, He said, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;  they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded..." (Lk. 17:28).  I cannot even imagine that this is descriptive of what the state of affairs will be in the world on the day Christ returns for the Battle of Armageddon.  Or, on the day prior. Or the month prior, or the year prior!

Your reasonings do not change the words of Jesus. They are to be BELIEVED, even if you don't understand. The focus that Jesus is pointing to is about His coming. 

But Uriah, I do very much believe the words of Jesus!  And, akin to what you are saying, I can say also:  The focus of Jesus' words is His coming, His "sign" coming (Matt. 24:29-31), which according to all the prophetic points of convergence, is His 6th Seal coming (Rev. 6:12-17).  You can't make His 6th Seal coming the same as His coming for the Battle of Armageddon, for you would have all this taking place, and the 7th Seal would not have even been opened.  The 7th Seal is a seal, a very, very good one.  Uriah, it is "to be BELIEVED" also.  Christ will make His "sign" appearance seven plus years before His coming for the Battle of Armageddon.  Consider just a little further in Matthew's account, same context, "Therefore be ye also ready, for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44).  If the "beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies" (Rev. 19:19) are poised and ready for Christ's return for the Battle of Armageddon, this will be a time when everyone will certainly be expecting Him!  And there is much more to consider, as we have and as we will, the good Lord willing and the creeks don't rise.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[ForHisGlory37]

On 4/14/2020 at 9:56 PM, not an echo said:

The first phase will be His sudden and unexpected return as a "thief" for the rapture of His Church and the resurrection. 

Hello not an echo, there are no two phases for there is only one ONE SECOND COMING, and it will not be a sudden and unexpected return as a "thief" ....

1 Thessalonians 5: 2-8

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

If we are obeying what the Scriptures are telling us, that "day" should not overtake us like a thief because we will have been watching and being sober.  Jesus no one knows the day or the hour but He told us the season and the signs to look for and you will find them in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21