The Two Phases of Christ's Return

[not an echo]

On 4/21/2020 at 12:31 AM, ForHisGlory37 said:

On 4/14/2020 at 11:56 PM, not an echo said:

The first phase will be His sudden and unexpected return as a "thief" for the rapture of His Church and the resurrection. 

Hello not an echo, there are no two phases for there is only one ONE SECOND COMING, and it will not be a sudden and unexpected return as a "thief" ....

Hello ForHisGlory37 (and all),

There is a sense in which I see there being only "ONE SECOND COMING," especially from a first century perspective.  But, Scripture very plainly (and strongly) supports that Christ will make a "sign" appearance (Matt. 24:30) after the opening of the 6th Seal, and that this will be the time of the rapture.  His "ONE SECOND COMING" will take place some seven plus years after this (Rev. 19:11-16).  So, when I speak of two phases, I am borrowing from a long understood way of expressing the sum of the foregoing.  Now, if you are trying to convey with your statement that the rapture and Christ's coming for the Battle of Armageddon will occur at the same time, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It seems that when I have said Christ's return will be "as a thief" some others have also thought that I meant even for us who are watching.  All I have ever meant by that is what Jesus (and Paul) said about it.  But, ForHisGlory37, when you say, "it will not be a sudden and unexpected return as a "thief,"  what are you meaning?  For many, and especially those who will be left behind, it will be exactly as Jesus (and Paul) said!  Are you sure you want your reply to be as it appears, or am I misunderstanding you some way?

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[ForHisGlory37]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello ForHisGlory37 (and all),

There is a sense in which I see there being only "ONE SECOND COMING," especially from a first century perspective.  But, Scripture very plainly (and strongly) supports that Christ will make a "sign" appearance (Matt. 24:30) after the opening of the 6th Seal, and that this will be the time of the rapture.  His "ONE SECOND COMING" will take place some seven plus years after this (Rev. 19:11-16).  So, when I speak of two phases, I am borrowing from a long understood way of expressing the sum of the foregoing.  Now, if you are trying to convey with your statement that the rapture and Christ's Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon will occur at the same time, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It seems that when I have said Christ's return will be "as a thief" some others have also thought that I meant even for us who are watching.  All I have ever meant by that is what Jesus (and Paul) said about it.  But, ForHisGlory37, when you say, "it will not be a sudden and unexpected return as a "thief,"  what are you meaning?  For many, and especially those who will be left behind, it will be exactly as Jesus (and Paul) said!  Are you sure you want your reply to be as it appears, or am I misunderstanding you some way?

Hello brother Echo, there was a lot of confusion when Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians, those Christians thought they had missed Jesus coming back.. so he had to write 2 Thessalonians to clarify.  That goes for us as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,(there is only one event)

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (there is only one day, it does not say day and another day or days.) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ( there is a great falling away of the Church.  we will be here when the antichrist comes into power and God is going to reveal who he is)

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: ( Jesus will destroy with the brightness of His coming.. how can He come without destroying the antichrist when He comes, like you say the first time and then comes back for those supposed left behind???)

⁹ Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

¹⁰ And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

¹¹ And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

¹² That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

And show me where in the Scriptures does it say that some will be left behind and get another chance at redemption?  When I first became a believer as a child, there was urgency. You don't get another chance for salvation if Jesus came back.. You had to make a decision right then and there when you heard the Gospel.  We are never guaranteed tomorrow.  blessings brother!

[not an echo]

On 4/20/2020 at 5:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/19/2020 at 9:11 PM, not an echo said:

Diaste, I would have thought that you would know that I agree that EVERY EYE will see Christ at His second coming  (Rev. 1:7).  Absolutely!!!   I believe our difference is that you are of the post-trib persuasion and I am of the pre-trib persuasion (howbeit, not according to the common view).  The reason for my "heap of rhetoric"  is to more fully clarify how I am seeing things, for I have never seen this put forth in the web world or in print.  Kinda the reason for my avatar, not an echo.

It's not a persuasion, it's what is written. There won't be a pretrib rapture as only one gathering is fully described and it comes after the A of D and great tribulation that are both near to the return of Jesus.

I'm becoming more and more convinced the construction of the world is not what is presented. I cannot accept a single proposition stemming from lack of observation yet wholly relying on equations and fancy words spoken at high brow gatherings. 

Yes, I know you are relating your ideas. As long as it's acknowledged it's just personal belief and not the unvarnished truth I'm fine with it.

Hello Diaste (and all),

My heart's desire is to remain humbly respectful of how others in the family of God are seeing things as we interact on the forum.  I could say as you, "It's not a persuasion, it's what is written."  Of course, what one is persuaded of can indeed be "what is written."  So, as you, that's what I also believe concerning that of which I am persuaded.  Paul said, "One man esteemeth one day above another:  another esteemeth every day alike.  Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" (Rom. 14:5).  Later, Paul said, "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself..." (Rom. 14:14).  One might say to Paul, "Hey, why are you saying persuaded?  Can't you just say you know that there is nothing unclean of itself?"  For me, I can appreciate Paul's spirit (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) when he says some things the way he does.

Concerning "There won't be a pretrib rapture as only one gathering is fully described and it comes after the A of D and great tribulation that are both near to the return of Jesus",  I just have to disagree.  Notice afresh "what is written" concerning this in II Thessalonians 2: (of course, what is in parenthesis is what I have written and am persuaded of) 

  1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the rapture), and by our gathering together unto Him (during the rapture),

  2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day (strict sense) of Christ (His Second Advent) is at hand.

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY (strict sense) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin (the A of D) be revealed, the son of perdition;

  4   Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;  so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God (note Rev. 11:1).

  5   Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

  6   And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

  7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:  only He (the Holy Spirit) who now letteth will let (hinder), until He be taken out of the way (with the Church at the rapture).

  8   AND THEN shall that Wicked (the A of D) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming (His Second Advent):

Concerning your last sentence Diaste, whatever one's ideas, beliefs, persuasions, convictions, gut feelings, or whatever, when it comes to the things of God and the truths and teachings we find in the Word of God, all that matters is what will line up with and harmonize with Scripture.  Really, with me, as I feel it probably is with you , if it is just baseless ideas that someone is putting forth, we all have things much better to do with our time than to concern ourselves over other's baseless ideas.  I hope you aren't genuinely thinking that my ideas are baseless.  Diaste, it's getting where I almost feel like I know you!  And, one day we will meet.  And when we do, hey, I bet I'll be able to look at you and remark that you were wrong on a thing or two.  And you, I figure, will be able to look at me and say likewise...with a smile (I hope).  Then, I'm gonna push you into that River of Water of Life that is "proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb"!  Then, I'm gonna dive in too!  Just think how we'll be able to swim in our glorified bodies!  

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Uriah]

Also, on the previous question, weddings have always taken place during difficult times like war. And as one can see in Rev. 18, it is only there when the scripture shows a hint of things that had been going on and are now put an end for His enemy who had been conducting marriages. "giving/given" in marriage refers to what we call engagement/betrothal. This too happens in times of war etc. As for building and planting,these are also activities that stop when the Day of the Lord is at hand. Because of the sudden darkness, all of this will stop.

[not an echo]

On 4/17/2020 at 8:42 PM, Marilyn C said:

On 4/16/2020 at 10:08 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn C (and all),

According to the account, Jesus was not talking to Israel, but to His disciples, the pillars of His Church---

Hi not an echo,

The 12 disciples are NOT in the Body of Christ!

 

On 4/20/2020 at 2:03 AM, Marilyn C said:

On 4/19/2020 at 8:51 PM, not an echo said:

How did you come to this conclusion?

Hi not an echo.

Thank you for asking and not poo hooing. So we read in Matt. 19: 28 the Lord telling the 12 disciples that they would eventually rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. Then in Rev. 21: 14 we read of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb in the New Jerusalem. All to do with Israel.

Then reading in Acts we see that the 12 Apostles were special in that they had walked with the Lord, had witnessed of His life, death, resurrection and ascension. They were to witness to Israel of Jesus being the Lord and Christ. (Acts 1: 22, 2: 36)

Later we read that the ascended Lord gave apostles to build up the Body of Christ. (Eph. 4: 11) And the Apostle Paul was given the revelation of the Body of Christ, which was not known in previous times. (Eph. 3: 1 - 7) Peter found it difficult to understand this and tried to make the Gentile believers conform to Jewish ways. (Gal. 2: 11 - 15) Paul addressed Peter regarding this matter.

Now God has 3 different groups He has purposes for in His great Kingdom - the Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations. Understand who the Lord is talking to and the Bible becomes much clearer.

Hello again Marilyn (and all),

My curiosity is kinda piqued over why you would not see the 12 Apostles as being in the Body of Christ.  We know that they were baptized by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4).  Paul said, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free;  and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (I Cor. 12:13).  Further, he says, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles..." (I Cor. 12:28).  The Apostle John, speaking to the "seven churches which are in Asia" (Rev. 1:4) said to them, "Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His on blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father..." (Rev. 1:5-6).  Moreover, He gave His Great Commission to the the Apostles (and by extension, unto us, the rest of His Body) with these words, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 28:19).

It is clear that during Christ's Millennial Reign, the 12 Apostles "shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19:28).  What is not clear (to me, anyway  ) is why it would even matter that they are a part of the Body of Christ???  Marilyn, we are a part of the Body of Christ, and we are going to judge angels (I Cor. 6:3)!   

Edited April 22, 2020 by not an echo

[not an echo]

 

On 4/20/2020 at 2:11 AM, Marilyn C said:

On 4/20/2020 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

"For the great Day of His Wrath is come" (the Day of the Lord), it has indeed, for this same day the 7th Seal will be opened, which will allow the Seven Sealed Book to open, which is all about the Day of the Lord!  I hope that you are at least able to see that what I am seeing is not without foundation.

Hi not an echo,

Just a helpful point here. The `Day` in Greek is a specific day, BUT also a time period. God uses both. The specific day is when the Lord returns to deliver Israel and bring judgment upon the nations. The time period of the `day` is after the rapture, through the tribulation, and on the last part of the 70th week, & into the millennium, till final the heavens and earth are burnt up as Peter says. (2 Peter 3: 10)

The `thief in the night is for those in darkness, whereas the Body of Christ is told by the Lord in 1 Thess. 5 that we are NOT in darkness that this day (time period) should overtake us as a thief. (1 Thess. 5: 4)

If I am understanding you correctly, I'm in total agreement with you here Marilyn.  I'm thinking of starting a thread relating to this.  According to your post, I would say you are seeing the rapture as being pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week.  Am I correct?  Of course, I see the rapture as occurring pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week (the way I prefer to express it).

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Hello again Marilyn (and all),

My curiosity is kinda piqued over why you would not see the 12 Apostles as being in the Body of Christ.  We know that they were baptized by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4).  Paul said, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free;  and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (I Cor. 12:13).  Further, he says, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles..." (I Cor. 12:28).  The Apostle John, speaking to the "seven churches which are in Asia" (Rev. 1:4) said to them, "Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His on blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father..." (Rev. 1:5-6).  Moreover, He gave His Great Commission to the the Apostles (and by extension, unto us, the rest of His Body) with these words, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 28:19).

It is clear that during Christ's Millennial Reign, the 12 Apostles "shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19:28).  What is not clear (to me, anyway  ) is why it would even matter that they are a part of the Body of Christ???  Marilyn, we are a part of the Body of Christ, and we are going to judge angels (I Cor. 6:3)!   

Hi not an echo,

So the 12 disciples/apostles of the Lamb, were baptised by the Holy Spirit into Christ but NOT the Body of Christ. Their special purpose is to Israel. They did testify of the Jesus being Lord and Saviour but never preached about the Body of Christ, for they were not given that revelation. Their writings are to do with growing mature in Christ. They went forth preaching Christ and baptising people. However remember that the Holy Spirit had to reveal to Peter to go to the Gentiles. Peter thought that strange. Then when Gentiles became believers Peter tried to get them to act like Jews for that`s what proselytes  to Israel did. But the Body of Christ was not a part of Israel but a whole new body of people. Peter did not have the revelation of that.

The `apostles` that build up the Body of Christ are the ones that Jesus gave WHEN HE ASCENDED. (Eph. 4: 11) These are specifically to the Body of Christ.

The 12 apostles will sit on thrones in the new heavens and new earth time, the new Jerusalem. That is the Lord`s rulership in that realm. As for the Body of Christ our inheritance is in the third heaven where we will rule and reign with Christ on His seat of power. The other realms are under the Lord but His seat of power is in the highest. The other realms have `thrones` meaning rulership, and that is what the Lord has been maturing through Israel for their rulership, and in His Body, for their rulership. All in God`s great kingdom, in harmony, in unity, but in different realms.

I have written a series in my blogs here on Worthy, `Marilyn`s Messages,` on this very topic, with diagrams, Starting from God`s throne, through Rebellion of Rulership, to Restoration of Rulership and Rulership in the New Heavens and New Earth. The topic is called `God`s Eternal Purposes.` You may want to check it out and discuss.

regards, Marilyn.

[douggg]

On 4/20/2020 at 6:04 PM, not an echo said:

Hello all,

Following is a chart I have developed to illustrate the basics of how I am seeing things.  It is based upon the Seven Sealed Book of The Revelation and is from the perspective of the Cross, the era of the Church (here shown as the Church Age), the Day of the Lord, and Eternity:

     

 

not an echo,  can you show your timeline of events chart for Daniel's 70th week?

[ForHisGlory37]

On 4/19/2020 at 11:28 AM, not an echo said:

I think of Sodom and Gomorrah and how our nation is often compared to those wicked cities.  On the day God judged those cities, the angels delivered Lot and his daughters, whereupon the cities were totally destroyed.  This may be what is in store for our nation (and what is in our hemisphere) on the day of the rapture. 

Hello Echo.... I think we are worse than Sodom and Gomorrah.... we have allowed millions and millions of babies to be murdered... and then took that and taught other countries to do it too.... Judgment is going to be coming very swiftly

 

[not an echo]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Hello again Marilyn (and all),

My curiosity is kinda piqued over why you would not see the 12 Apostles as being in the Body of Christ.  We know that they were baptized by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4).  Paul said, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free;  and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (I Cor. 12:13).  Further, he says, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles..." (I Cor. 12:28).  The Apostle John, speaking to the "seven churches which are in Asia" (Rev. 1:4) said to them, "Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His on blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father..." (Rev. 1:5-6).  Moreover, He gave His Great Commission to the the Apostles (and by extension, unto us, the rest of His Body) with these words, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 28:19).

It is clear that during Christ's Millennial Reign, the 12 Apostles "shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19:28).  What is not clear (to me, anyway  ) is why it would even matter that they are a part of the Body of Christ???  Marilyn, we are a part of the Body of Christ, and we are going to judge angels (I Cor. 6:3)!   

Hi not an echo,

So the 12 disciples/apostles of the Lamb, were baptised by the Holy Spirit into Christ but NOT the Body of Christ. Their special purpose is to Israel. They did testify of the Jesus being Lord and Saviour but never preached about the Body of Christ, for they were not given that revelation. Their writings are to do with growing mature in Christ. They went forth preaching Christ and baptising people. However remember that the Holy Spirit had to reveal to Peter to go to the Gentiles. Peter thought that strange. Then when Gentiles became believers Peter tried to get them to act like Jews for that`s what proselytes  to Israel did. But the Body of Christ was not a part of Israel but a whole new body of people. Peter did not have the revelation of that.

The `apostles` that build up the Body of Christ are the ones that Jesus gave WHEN HE ASCENDED. (Eph. 4: 11) These are specifically to the Body of Christ.

The 12 apostles will sit on thrones in the new heavens and new earth time, the new Jerusalem. That is the Lord`s rulership in that realm. As for the Body of Christ our inheritance is in the third heaven where we will rule and reign with Christ on His seat of power. The other realms are under the Lord but His seat of power is in the highest. The other realms have `thrones` meaning rulership, and that is what the Lord has been maturing through Israel for their rulership, and in His Body, for their rulership. All in God`s great kingdom, in harmony, in unity, but in different realms.

I have written a series in my blogs here on Worthy, `Marilyn`s Messages,` on this very topic, with diagrams, Starting from God`s throne, through Rebellion of Rulership, to Restoration of Rulership and Rulership in the New Heavens and New Earth. The topic is called `God`s Eternal Purposes.` You may want to check it out and discuss.

regards, Marilyn.

Hello again Marilyn,

I appreciate your response.  It is interesting.  I will certainly look into your series sometime...