Seeking Guidance on Common Law Marriage

[Billiards Ball]

On 4/19/2020 at 4:19 PM, FeministWhoLovesABeliever said:

I am 10 years into a relationship, and very much in love, with a Christian. It was our intention to spend the rest of our life together. But he has recently gone through trauma that deepened his relationship to Christ and now wants a Christian marriage. I am not Christian or called by Jesus. As it stands now, are we one flesh? (Mark 10:6-8)  Can I be saved by him? (Corinthians 7:12-16) Would staying together constitute a new choice to be unequally yoked (2 Corinthians 6:14?)  Would leaving each other constitute adultery? (Matthew 19:9) 

He wants to wait for me to find Jesus. I am pretty certain that won't happen. 

Please, someone, help me find the answers I seek.  (So far, in other places that I've asked, people have responded by trying to convert me. And I'm totally happy to go through that exercise, with an open mind, again and again. But it would be really great if I could also receive answers to my questions.) 

To be frank,

If he wants you to become born again prior to marriage, he should keep the relationship with you, but on a chaste basis only. If you are having sex, he is showing a double-mindedness and making it harder for you to take his rededication/conversion seriously.

Biblically speaking, he should end the relationship or continue in a chaste relationship only. You love him, so don't pursue him sexually for fornication, clouding his head and judgment at this challenging time.

Your common-law marriage is not recognized without a ceremony and the legal commitment, biblically speaking.

[FeministWhoLovesABeliever]

On 4/20/2020 at 8:29 PM, Coliseum said:

It was an interesting article, and ought to be read. It shares someone who needed to hear the truth---her truth. That word is a very interesting word because it represents harshness. It does not care how a person feels, how he thinks, what his opinion is. The truth does not care whether a person is alive or dead. It exists regardless. But the truth lacks something that Jesus had, and is why he has had a whole "cloud of witnesses" following him. Jesus said, "Speak the truth, in love." It is not enough to merely hold the truth; people will not listen to it. It is a hard saying to hear. But it is bearable when you know that someone who speaks it loves you.

You said that beautifully. I feel the love and consideration in your responses to me. Thank you. 

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Sometimes we want to deny the truth. A child whose hand is slapped away from the fire hurts, and he screams in pain; but later, he realizes "his Father" who disciplines him, may hurt him, but will never harm him. The child grows up to learn that it was out of love, not meanness that his hand was slapped. This is in a small way how Jesus is with us. The pain of growth in understanding how to live because of Christ is a small thing to pay when we discover what our heart inside is really like before it is changed.

When my son was almost a year, we lit a fire in the fireplace and sat cuddled together next to it. When he reached towards that glass, I said "hot" and gently pulled his hand away. But I did not constrain it. Instead I watched as he immediately reached for the glass again. A moment later he said his first word: "hot", and I kissed his tender fingers.  My son learned that I don't want him to be hurt, that my thoughts are worth considering, and that touching fireplace glass hurts.  I think that if I had instead slapped his hand away, he would have learned that I will hurt him. Though he would eventually come to logically understand that my intention was to protect him, that knowledge would not negate the physical and emotional experience of having been hurt by me.  I'm not trying to suggest that I'm a perfect parent. I've hurt my children in ways that were much worse than the slapping a hand. But those minutes by the fireplace are ones that I'm pretty sure that I got right. I'm not interested in worshiping a god that punishes. But I willingly embrace the one that created a world with consequences who will comfort me, when I experience those consequences. 

One way or another, we all have to learn that fire burns. Each of us has the free will to decide what to do with that knowledge.  I'm one of those who, multiple times, considered it and choose to walk on fire. Sometimes it did result in tiny burns. But I also got to practice being vulnerable and brave. I learned that just because something seems obvious or true, doesn't make it so, and I was awed by the mystery of this world/god. 

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We cannot know that until the very secrets at the core of our being are brought to light and exposed.

THIS is so important. I've done this. I'm not saying that it is done. There are layers upon layers. Before I knew what it was like to expose them, I hid the secrets, even from myself. Now I seek out hidden layers, craving the painfully beautiful experience of exposing them to the healing light. 

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We do no want to hear it. It is too hard a saying. The longest story in the Bible is the story about the woman at the well. Here is a woman who lived a hard life, living with a man she was not married to, was deeply wounded, and was told the truth. At first she resisted hearing it, but Jesus loved her, and at last she came to realize just how much.  John 4:1-30. I hope you read it. 

I have read it and I watched it in a movie two nights ago. Both times I found it to be confusing. I read it again now, at your suggestion. And then looked up the summary on Dummies.com which says that it describes the spiritual thirst the human heart has for goodness and truth, that is never quenched until people are in the presence of god forever.  I have this thirst inside of me. 

From a different, and completely self-serving rules and regulations perspective, I noticed something new this time. I wonder what you and anyone else who is reading this thinks? Jesus referred to the man that she was with as her husband. Commentary suggests that he was doing so to point out her sin. But maybe Jesus was simply identifying the man that she shared her life with. Maybe it was her statement "I have no husband" that defined the man? King James reports Jesus then said "You have well said, 'I have no husband", which suggests he was praising her for telling the truth. But the Good News Bible reports that Jesus's response was "You are right when you say you have no husband." [emphasis mine] which supports the idea that she, not a marriage ceremony, defined the role of the man that she shared her life with. 

Because most of the bibles seem to subscribe to the praise version, it is likely that my embracing of the alternative is indicative of my fallibility and weakness of character.  However, it is also likely that the men who wrote the texts, the scribes who copied the texts, the men who determined which texts were worthy of being included, and the men who interpreted the texts, were also fallible humans who, like me, were influenced by the intense misogyny of their times and served by increasing men's power and influence and decreasing women's

Maybe my personal knowing of god, in the feminine, is sacrilegious. But maybe also taking a word that, in its original language, specifies that a group of people that were not exclusively women, and translating it to one that suggests only the masculine gender, is also sacrilegious. Maybe Jesus referred to god as his father because god is masculine. But maybe Jesus called god his "father" only to remind people that his life was not the result of a human father. God could have formed Jesus outside of a woman and then placed him, fully formed, on earth. Perhaps god excluded a man from contributing to Jesus's DNA because god is masculine. Or perhaps god excluded a man from contributing to Jesus's DNA because god did not consider man to be worthy but did consider women to be. I am not suggesting that I believe this to be true or that I would want it to be interpreted as such. I am just trying to demonstrate how absurd and egotistical it is for any religion to claim that their text is the word of god. If, instead, the bible were to acknowledge that it is an interpretation of those of god's words that men, in misogynistic times, judged and interpreted to be true, I think that it would make the purpose and person of Christ more accessible to people like me. Furthermore, I suspect that the demonstration of charity, diligence, and humility that would be required to do this, would inspire similar virtues from it's followers. 

But back to the "acceptable" interpretation of the text: Jesus also said "The fact is, you have had five husbands." Does this mean that she had 5 wedding ceremonies? Or does it instead suggest that the people who told me that marriage is only attainable through a wedding ceremony could have been wrong and that by partnering with 5 men, she was married to 5 men? 

[Coliseum]

10 hours ago, FeministWhoLovesABeliever said:

You said that beautifully. I feel the love and consideration in your responses to me. Thank you. 

When my son was almost a year, we lit a fire in the fireplace and sat cuddled together next to it. When he reached towards that glass, I said "hot" and gently pulled his hand away. But I did not constrain it. Instead I watched as he immediately reached for the glass again. A moment later he said his first word: "hot", and I kissed his tender fingers.  My son learned that I don't want him to be hurt, that my thoughts are worth considering, and that touching fireplace glass hurts.  I think that if I had instead slapped his hand away, he would have learned that I will hurt him. Though he would eventually come to logically understand that my intention was to protect him, that knowledge would not negate the physical and emotional experience of having been hurt by me.  I'm not trying to suggest that I'm a perfect parent. I've hurt my children in ways that were much worse than the slapping a hand. But those minutes by the fireplace are ones that I'm pretty sure that I got right. I'm not interested in worshiping a god that punishes. But I willingly embrace the one that created a world with consequences who will comfort me, when I experience those consequences. 

One way or another, we all have to learn that fire burns. Each of us has the free will to decide what to do with that knowledge.  I'm one of those who, multiple times, considered it and choose to walk on fire. Sometimes it did result in tiny burns. But I also got to practice being vulnerable and brave. I learned that just because something seems obvious or true, doesn't make it so, and I was awed by the mystery of this world/god. 

THIS is so important. I've done this. I'm not saying that it is done. There are layers upon layers. Before I knew what it was like to expose them, I hid the secrets, even from myself. Now I seek out hidden layers, craving the painfully beautiful experience of exposing them to the healing light. 

I have read it and I watched it in a movie two nights ago. Both times I found it to be confusing. I read it again now, at your suggestion. And then looked up the summary on Dummies.com which says that it describes the spiritual thirst the human heart has for goodness and truth, that is never quenched until people are in the presence of god forever.  I have this thirst inside of me. 

From a different, and completely self-serving rules and regulations perspective, I noticed something new this time. I wonder what you and anyone else who is reading this thinks? Jesus referred to the man that she was with as her husband. Commentary suggests that he was doing so to point out her sin. But maybe Jesus was simply identifying the man that she shared her life with. Maybe it was her statement "I have no husband" that defined the man? King James reports Jesus then said "You have well said, 'I have no husband", which suggests he was praising her for telling the truth. But the Good News Bible reports that Jesus's response was "You are right when you say you have no husband." [emphasis mine] which supports the idea that she, not a marriage ceremony, defined the role of the man that she shared her life with. 

Because most of the bibles seem to subscribe to the praise version, it is likely that my embracing of the alternative is indicative of my fallibility and weakness of character.  However, it is also likely that the men who wrote the texts, the scribes who copied the texts, the men who determined which texts were worthy of being included, and the men who interpreted the texts, were also fallible humans who, like me, were influenced by the intense misogyny of their times and served by increasing men's power and influence and decreasing women's

Maybe my personal knowing of god, in the feminine, is sacrilegious. But maybe also taking a word that, in its original language, specifies that a group of people that were not exclusively women, and translating it to one that suggests only the masculine gender, is also sacrilegious. Maybe Jesus referred to god as his father because god is masculine. But maybe Jesus called god his "father" only to remind people that his life was not the result of a human father. God could have formed Jesus outside of a woman and then placed him, fully formed, on earth. Perhaps god excluded a man from contributing to Jesus's DNA because god is masculine. Or perhaps god excluded a man from contributing to Jesus's DNA because god did not consider man to be worthy but did consider women to be. I am not suggesting that I believe this to be true or that I would want it to be interpreted as such. I am just trying to demonstrate how absurd and egotistical it is for any religion to claim that their text is the word of god. If, instead, the bible were to acknowledge that it is an interpretation of those of god's words that men, in misogynistic times, judged and interpreted to be true, I think that it would make the purpose and person of Christ more accessible to people like me. Furthermore, I suspect that the demonstration of charity, diligence, and humility that would be required to do this, would inspire similar virtues from it's followers. 

But back to the "acceptable" interpretation of the text: Jesus also said "The fact is, you have had five husbands." Does this mean that she had 5 wedding ceremonies? Or does it instead suggest that the people who told me that marriage is only attainable through a wedding ceremony could have been wrong and that by partnering with 5 men, she was married to 5 men? 

Thank you for your long and well thought-out response. I will not judge you or tell you what you should know or what you shouldn't. That is not my job. It is God's. What I find fascinating in all of your exchanges here is that while you plead your case about what you believe is right or wrong to a man's way of thinking regarding the God of the Bible, you are visiting the Scriptures, and wrestling with them. This is what God wants. In a previous message I shared with you, I recall recounting that God comes to us in our greatest need. We can accept His coming, or reject it. I will not tell a man he must believe. It is his right not to. But I will defend you for at least knowing why you believe what you believe. A Russian soldier thrown into prison for his misdeeds was unwittingly thrown into the same cell with a pastor. The pastor of course asked him if he was a believer. The soldier's answer startled me, and even more so the pastor: "I will believe if I have orders to believe." Tears began to well up in the pastor's eyes. Here was a man who had lost sight of what it was like to think for himself. He was so brain-washed, he left his thinking up to others. This was sad on so many levels. So I applaud your right to choose based upon what you think and believe after your own investigation.

So, getting back to the place I left---that God comes to us in our need. When David Livingston was in Africa as a missionary, he came across a tribe of cannibals and wished to appeal to them about God and His love. But the tribe had no word for love in their vocabulary. So Livingston asked what to them was greatest---more than anything else. The chief replied "Umboi"---the smoked meat of a man's arm. When Livingston told them that Jesus told his followers that they must "eat his flesh and drink his blood," that resonated with them big time. But as Livingston shared the deeper meaning of what Jesus was referring to, the chief gradually came to understand this God of the Bible---and eventually his entire tribe came to Christ. This is the kind of love God offers to anyone willing to accept it. It was a delicate moment for the chief in his life to hear the message, and God sent Livingston to proclaim it. There are instances in the Bible where men were sent at just the right moment into men's' lives to preach "the missing part." 

No one likes to hear about the absolute authority of God. It comes from the very, natural, rebellious nature of who we are. No one likes to be told that "this is the way, and that there is no other." No one! Yet we are told it everyday. We are governed by limitations. God told the waves of the sea that they must halt at the shoreline and go no further. He told the stars they can "dance" in the heavens but they had a place where they could not leave. We are restricted on earth not to go 40 MPH in a 25 MPH area. We are told we must maintain six feet between us. We cannot go onto other people's property and take what does not belong to us. We are expected to follow the law---or else. Do you lie? Do you steal? Do you say things behind other people's backs that divide them? Have you thought ill of others? Have you argued, called people names, became angry, hostile or bitter? Why? Because we want what "belongs" to us. We hoist ourselves up upon our own, self-built pedestals to look over others, to look down on them, to be better than they are, to be right---and in some cases even dead right. We have learned to make everything about "me." Self is what is important, though we would be hard-pressed to admit it. This is the human condition. This is us---and God says He will have none of it. Well, now I'm mad, and I protest---because I want what I want.

If we knew what it truly cost Jesus to die for us, we would think differently perhaps. Imagine you going out of town, on vacation...and so you ask your friend to pick up your mail while you were gone. The next day he sees a bill---a gas bill for $5.00 that he pays for you. When you got back, you may say to him, "Why, thanks Joe." But what if the letter contained an IRS bill for $1,000,000---exceedingly more than you could ever pay, knowing it would land you in prison? What if your friend "Joe" paid it and did not want a cent of it back? Would you not fall down at his feet and shed tears of joy over his unexpected kindness? Would you not want to be there for him? Jesus paid a price no man could ever pay back, and he was willing to do it because he loved us---there was no other reason. He paid a price that took from us what we deserved so that we might have what he deserved. Would I not be willing to fall down at his feet and worship a God who did not think of Himself even once---but it was "because of the joy set before him to do this for us."

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Coliseum

[FeministWhoLovesABeliever]

On 4/21/2020 at 2:47 AM, Debp said:

The reason we need Christ as Savior is because someone still in their sins will never be able to stand after death in the presence of a totally holy God. 

I am having a hard time getting here. Christianity sees sin as an offence against god, right? But how does sin hurt god, aside from hurting gods creation? And if the pain is to god's creation, should not reparations also be made to gods creation? 

On 4/21/2020 at 2:47 AM, Debp said:

 When we believe (have faith) on Christ and what He did for us on the cross, a miracle occurs.   We are then born of the Spirit of God....the Holy Spirit indwells us.    And the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.   So God doesn't see our sins anymore.

Anne Lamont, a Christian writer says "the opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty. Certainty is missing the point entirely. Faith includes noticing the mess, the emptiness and discomfort, and letting it be there until some light returns." 

What is driving me batty tonight is not Christian's faith in Christ, but it's certainty that Christ is the only path to god. If their stance was "this is so awesome, we want to share it with everyone" I think I would be more interested in exploring it. It's the "If you don't agree that this is the only way to be right in god's eyes, than we are certain that you are going to hell" that I find to be so offensive. Certainly this stance is an example of the sin of pride? 

On 4/21/2020 at 2:47 AM, Debp said:

 

About praying... another member mentioned that you ask the Lord if He is real.   That Jesus reveal Himself to you.   But be sincere in your asking.   The fastest answered prayer is when we truly call out to the Lord from our hearts.

I've been very sincere. So far no luck :-(  

On 4/21/2020 at 2:47 AM, Debp said:

 

You asked about pastors:  You seem to be an intellectual.   Perhaps you might like Ravi Zacharias.   He is a well known Christian apologist.   Ravi Zacharias has many videos on YouTube.    For regular sermons, you might try Dr. David Jeremiah.

Thank you. I will check these out. I did find a podcast that I'm really enjoying: faith and feminism. 

[FeministWhoLovesABeliever]

On 4/21/2020 at 10:32 AM, kwikphilly said:

   Friend,you said you ARE interested in getting to know his "god" ,my I ask who then is yours?

I don't think my god is different than his god. I believe that Christianity is one of many paths to god. I mostly experience god in the feminine. I think that this makes sense for me as an individual because I experience god's gifts from the body of a woman. But I also think that it's important for the world to lift up the feminine aspects of god, not for the purpose of reducing the importance of the masculine aspects but because patriarchy has and is causing much harm in the world. 

On 4/21/2020 at 10:32 AM, kwikphilly said:

   I know it might sound a little complicated but it isn't at all,there is God Almighty,Creator of Heaven,Earth & all things and He is Holy & Perfect-we all fall short of the Gory of God and none of us  can be made Holy or Perfect by our own effort....we are dead in our sins,only a Perfect Blood Sacrifice could Atone for our sin...so God became flesh(Jesus)to die on the cross in our place.....by Believing in Jesus(God the Son)we Receive the unmerited,undeserved,Grace of God to forgive our sin  that we are made Perfect,Holy ,Pleasing& Acceptable to God(Worthy)......now after Jesus Died on the cross He Also Rose from the dead ,He is ALIVE,our Redeemer LIVES ....and when He Returned to Heaven He sent His Holy Spirit to Indwell us(God the Spirit) ONE GOD(three persons).....so we too are RESURRECTED in spirit!!!As you can see all of this has nothing to do with traditions,customs or Laws.....so what is a CHristian Marriage?

It sounds complicated but, more importantly, it feels wrong. Not necessarily the Christ part but the "he" part. I have had exquisite personal experiences with God. I love her. I believe in her. If I was made his image than I was made in her image at the same time. (from faith and feminism podcast. Sorry I don't remember the guest who said it.) 

On 4/21/2020 at 10:32 AM, kwikphilly said:

  The union between man & woman becomes Sanctified by God by a Covenant between God,man & woman....they are bound physically,mentally & spiritually....you will not find a marriage ritual anywhere in the Bible as churches perform them,of course there is nothing wrong with having a marriage officiated by law & by church if thats what you prefer but that is not what constitutes a Biblical Marriage.....some will not want to agree but they will have to back it up with Scripture   

Am I missing something or did you just define marriage outside of what scripture describes and at the same time say that scripture would be required to demonstrate otherwise? 

My original question was probably poorly worded. The marriage ceremony itself isn't the hangup. It's the fact that I'm not christian. 

On 4/21/2020 at 10:32 AM, kwikphilly said:

   Now about youOf course I'll pray for you,I'll pray with you too because I'm going to ask you to pray as well......I'm going to pray that Jesus Draw you unto Himself,that He Reveal Himself to you...I cannot even begin to describe to you how much He Loves you..YOU are the very Reason HE Left His Majesty in Heaven & reduced Himself to flesh,to servitude,to die in your place so that you may LIVE ETERNALLY with Him   My Friend Christianity is an intimate,personal Relationship with GOD in Christ Jesus....HE LOvesyou & so do I ,hope to hear back from you                       With love-in Christ<Kwik

Thank you

[Coliseum]

41 minutes ago, FeministWhoLovesABeliever said:

About praying... another member mentioned that you ask the Lord if He is real.   That Jesus reveal Himself to you.   But be sincere in your asking.   The fastest answered prayer is when we truly call out to the Lord from our hearts.

How do you know God has not heard your prayer? And how do you know whether He is not answering it? If you go purely by your feelings or believe that you must let your emotions run away with you, then you are not accepting what you have done by faith---but by feeling. We all have faith. When you go to a restaurant and eat a hamburger, you do not, by any of your five senses, know what the chef in the back room is doing. Why do you believe he is not poisoning you? You cannot see him, hear him, touch him, smell him, or taste him---yet you believe the hamburger he is making is ok to eat. How do you know? You don't! You must trust that your hamburger is edible.  Well, you might say, "All the other people have eaten theirs and live." So have all the millions and millions of believers throughout the centuries tasted Christ, and they all testify that He is good and has done what He claimed. How then do you know that your asking in sincerity was not all you needed to be saved? You trust that your asking was by faith---the same way your eating the hamburger was trusting the chef by faith. I did not know or understand that i was being saved in the instant of my conversion. But I began to see changes in my attitude as my eyes were being opened. It took time. When the doctor gives you medicine, it does not work instantly, but over time you begin to experience its effects. Trust the Great Physician as He administers the spiritual medicine you were seeking. Let God work in your heart.

[FeministWhoLovesABeliever]

 

On 4/21/2020 at 12:28 PM, Behold said:

 

The New Testament teaches that a Saved person is not to be "unequally yoked" with an unbeliever.  This means marriage.  There is no leeway.  2nd Corinthians 6:14

It says "do not be unequally yoked" It does not say that it is not possible to be unequally yoked. By your logic, women also do not speak in church because Corinthians also says "Let your women keep silence in the churches". Am I correct in thinking that the bible forbids many things that people, christian continue to do? 

Are christians always obedient to the bible? Do they never look on someone with lust? Do their children always obey their parents?

 

On 4/21/2020 at 12:28 PM, Behold said:

And i understand that you have committed to each other, and have been together for a long time.  However, you are not his wife.  You are his love life and his sex partner and his best friend.

Is this an opinion or biblical truth? I ask because some, not all, other Christians on this forum have said otherwise. If you are aware of passages that I can read, so that I can see it myself, it would be helpful. 

On 4/21/2020 at 12:28 PM, Behold said:

Its an unfortunate reality that the one you love allowed you to become a part of what you didn't understand, 10 yrs ago,  that has now become what he should have been faithful to from the beginning that would have spared you from what you are having to deal with now..

His lack of faithfulness to his Faith and to His God and To his Savior,, put you in this situation...Im sorry that this happened to you.  See, you are just an unbeliever, thinking that all religion is the same, and He knew the Truth.  You were just living the typical sinful life that follows all unbelievers, but HE knew better...and now you are in pain.

Interesting. I don't think that he mislead me. I think that his beliefs somehow changed. But it wasn't his belief in christ the savior that changed. It was something else. It looks like 24% of christians choose to marry outside of their faith. While theese are the minority they do represent a significant portion of the Christian people:  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/02/interfaith-marriage/ 

On 4/21/2020 at 12:28 PM, Behold said:

Its not a sin if you part from this person.  The sin is the unmarried sex, not the love that you feel.

Thanks. I know that my love isn't a sin.

Since we are destined to sin, it seems a better use of one's effort and attention to focus on overcoming the sins that cause others pain, instead of those that are expressions of love. 

 

[FeministWhoLovesABeliever]

 

On 4/21/2020 at 1:51 PM, Coliseum said:

 

It is by believing---even though we may not understand or grasp what we have believed. A man who comes to Christ is as a baby in his mother's arms. He does not yet understand until he experiences life. It is the same with our spiritual journey. When I was first saved, I did not have a shadow of a clue what it meant---but by faith---apart from my feelings, I chose to believe that Jesus was everything he claimed to be. Little by little, as his Spirit divided for me the truth and what was really right from wrong, I began to grow. Every believer is at a different place in his walk with Jesus, but it is not how small or how large our faith, but the Object of out faith, Jesus Christ, who saves us. 

Thank you for your encouraging words. I have always understood belief to be the result of logic and experiences. But, so far, neither of those are working for this situation. Is there another path to belief? 

[Willa]

The real church is not in a building but it is made up of true believers.  We are called the bride of Christ.  This is the feminine part of Christianity.  Christ love His church so much He died for her, and that is how a man should treat a woman. He does this so He can present her holy and faultless.  

[FeministWhoLovesABeliever]

20 hours ago, Willa said:

2Co 6:14  Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers [do not make mismated alliances with them or come under a different yoke with them, inconsistent with your faith]. For what partnership have right living and right standing with God with iniquity and lawlessness? Or how can light have fellowship with darkness?  

Yes. I wasn't clear. I understand that the bible says christians should not marry unbelievers. But does it say that if they exert their free will and do it anyway, that the marriage doesn't exist?  Does the bible also say that christians shouldn't engage in homosexual sex? And, if so, does this mean that, if they do, it doesn't count because it doesn't exist? 

The sunrise and sunset displays of the fellowship between light and darkness are a great analogy for our love. 

20 hours ago, Willa said:

2Co 6:15  What harmony can there be between Christ and Belial [the devil]?

um. Are you suggesting that I represent the devil? If so, why are you engaging in conversation with me? 

20 hours ago, Willa said:

Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?  2Co 6:16  What agreement [can there be between] a temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in and with and among them and will walk in and with and among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [Exo 25:8; Exo 29:45; Lev 26:12; Jer 31:1; Eze 37:27]  2Co 6:17  So, come out from among [unbelievers], and separate (sever) yourselves from them, says the Lord, and touch not [any] unclean thing; then I will receive you kindly and treat you with favor, [Isa 52:11]  2Co 6:18  And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. [Isa 43:6; Hos 1:10]

But christians are also supposed to attempt to live like jesus did, right? Did he not meet them where they lived, feed them, teach them, and heal them?He met them where they lived, fed them, taught them, and healed them (Matthew 9:9-11; Mark 1:33-34; 6:30-42; Luke 5:1-11). 

20 hours ago, Willa said:

Forgive me for sounding so harsh.  I disobeyed that verse for 9 years and fell away from God.  No-one is more miserable than a back slidden Christian.  When I came back to Him and wholly sought God with all my heart, I prayed day and night for him.  Those years were absolutely miserable and heartbreaking for both of us.  He had clients who would tell him about Jesus while he was out of town.  He couldn't see how God was calling him till after he chose to follow God too and looked back.  Then the change in him was dramatic.  He became the kindest and gentlest person.  That was 1974.  He died in 2017.  In the last years I realized that what I loved most about him was that he had become like Father God, and it was much the way you describe your partner.  You see, God changes us over time as we read the Bible, to become more like Jesus and Father God.  So what I loved most about him was that God's Spirit lived in him.  Sure he still made mistakes.  But I never stopped loving him.  It was just heart breaking to see him in misery until he asked God to forgive him again and to ask God to help him. God chastens those he loves.  The reason I have done well since his death is that many people are praying for me.   I also never lost him completely because I still have God's Spirit living with me, comforting me and helping me find stuff I misplace, which hubby also did..

Thank you for sharing your experience. It does help as your words do feel harsh. I think you are saying that you were with a wonderful man and maybe you are also that there were some years when he was not wonderful? When he was the opposite of kind and gentle? 

I'm benefitting from the conversations that I'm having here, the podcasts that I've been listening to, and the articles that I'm reading. The bible is difficult reading I can see why study groups or sermons are necessary and could imagine enjoying spending the rest of my life having these discussions, with my beloved. Maybe, if I continue to ask questions, engage in conversations, and read the bible, God will change me as well and that would be a beautiful thing. But what my beloved is doing feels like the opposite of faith. If he knows Christ is the only way and that Christ has the power to save me, than wouldn't faith look like sharing his experiences with me, instead of trying to control mine? Isn't the effort to control demonstrative of lack of faith? 

20 hours ago, Willa said:

The order of men over women is not putting women down.  God looks at us as equal.  It is just social order.  We are to conform to our husband.  Together we become a whole person; sometime they call us their better half or their other half.  We fill in where they lack.  They are to have the last word, but that doesn't mean we can't respectfully offer ours.  But this is in marriage.

I disagree. I think patriarchy is the result of the fall, not god's direction for how we are supposed to live. Take a look at this: https://liferotp.com/acblog/2015/8/20/6-the-ezer-kenegdo

20 hours ago, Willa said:

I have had many close friends who have claimed to have common law marriages; it may be true in some cases if they live in a common law state.  Few are.  They had always lived in states where that was illegal.  If you have truly lived in a common law state I would recognized that as a legal marriage in your case, even though it is not a religious ceremony.  However, in my heart I would never feel married by common law.  Mine was very small with about 40 people, close friends and relatives.  It was in a church with a short sermon.  I made my husband listen to a copy of it on our 50th wedding anniversary because I am sure he didn't hear it the first time.  It was a hot summer evening and all he could think of was the sweat trickling down his legs!

Yes, the feeling of things matters! I wish we had engaged in a ceremony that felt like a marriage before now. There are some really complicated reasons why I can't do so, at this time.

We were both previously married, he in a christian ceremony, me in a jewish one. But those ceremonies did not result in either of us being one flesh with our previous spouses. Mine resulted in forming the false conclusion that marriage was essentially the bonds of ownership, obligation, and entitlement. I did not want to do that to my beloved. I experience our union to be greater than marriage. I have sacrificed more for him than most wives ever will for their husbands, not from a position of obligation but because I was created to serve him.  (I'm not saying that this is my only purpose. But I believe it to be one of the most important ones.)  In his presence, I experience wholeness. I am unable to experience it without him.  

20 hours ago, Willa said:

I hear a lot of men claiming they are married just because they had sex and it makes me angry when they say that and claim to be Christians even though they have never lived in a common law state..  To me they are either trying to justify what they have done or they are lying to us and to themselves as well.  Uh hum.  I have always spoken up even when it is not popular, and what you see is who I am.  Hubby was the diplomatic one, but I have tried to let his kindness rub off on me. God isn't through rubbing off my rough edges.  

I've quite a few rough edges myself ;-) 

My partner has never taken advantage of me. I have only known him to be a man of incredible kindness, integrity and service. He truly is one of my heroes. That's what makes this so hard. If he were a lesser man, I would just be on my way. In so many ways, life would be easier if I did. I'm not one of those insecure women who feels the need to be in relationship with a man or fears being alone. Maybe that's another reason that marriage didn't appeal to me: I'm not interested in obtaining a husband. It is him that I want to be cherished by and to serve. 

20 hours ago, Willa said:

 Being a Christian is like being in a rock polishing tumbler.  It is a wild ride with some bumps and bruises.  It is adventurous and sometimes hurts.  But you come out looking really beautiful and reflecting Christ's love. It is like no other religion because it is about God coming to us and seeking us out.  It is about Him providing us with forgiveness when we have never deserved it and never will. That is what grace means.

I see this in my beloved and also in some other christians that I know. But some of the ugliest people that see also call themselves christian? 

20 hours ago, Willa said:

 

 I am praying for you.  Please pray for me as well.

I will. Thank you.