Learn a lesson from the Great Awakening ...

[OneLight]

32 minutes ago, Alive said:

I didn't quote that verse to prove or disprove our human notion of 'predestination'--for myself, I think there is something missing in our capacity to fully grasp this concept--although we try.

No--what I was addressing is the past tense of' justified' and 'glorified' as applied by the verse to those who 'ARE' born again birthed sons of God.

This links to the 'History' of the Cross and is additional proof of what happened there in the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension.

I don't recall that you have yet responded to what I am laying out regarding that History. Since the Cross and the Work of His Son is God's way of restoration of all things---I always start and finish there when desiring to understand things pertaining to our common Salvation. Everything must square up to the Cross as this is the Father's Way of solving the Problem.

So--what of the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension and the clear fact that we 'were' past tense included there. Like the note in the book, I mentioned.

I didn't pick up on your highlighted word glorified as the reason for the question as it was not explained that was the intent.  Sometime, when I search for a certain word, it remains highlighted when pasting and I forget to remove the highlight, which is what I assumed happened.  Sorry about that.

So the readers don't have to scroll around trying to figure out what is being discussed, I am quoting your original question again.

21 hours ago, Alive said:

@OneLight How do you view this verse?

Rom. 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

OK, to your original question on being glorified.  Notice that God is speaking within the timeline of before creation until the end of this age as He is talking about what He will do for humans in this life.  To God, everything has already happened that we read in scripture, but scripture is written for us, who are restricted by time.  This speaks of what God did for future humans, not that glorification is completed at the time of salvation

Perhaps, to be more inclusive for the reader, perhaps it could also read "Moreover whom He predestined, these He will call; whom He will call, these He will justify; and whom He will justify, these He will glorify." without losing any meaning.

How do I see all this play out?  justification and sanctification are ongoing processes.  When we die, justification and sanctification ends and we will be glorified.  I don't see glorification as being something that happens before we die as when we are caught up to be with the lord, we read in 1 Corinthians 50-58 the final process we go through.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

“O( Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

This is the finalization of glorification, when we finally can put on incorruption and immortality.

 

Now about the "History" of the cross you speak of.  First, I see history as being time in the past from the very second I write this, and this will be history when you read it, so everythig in the past is considered history.  I am not sure why you capitalized the word, as if it had special meaning.  Can you explain why you did capitalized history so I will better understand why this word needs to be capitalized?

Everything a child of God experiences through life is because of what happened on the cross and His resurrection and ascension.  For me, this is a given when discussing the subject so I saw no need to begin with and end with the cross and His resurrection and ascension.  Everything in the New Testament is read one of two ways, in general.  For the lost, it is read as a possibility and for the believer it is read as a reality.  I hope you now understand that though we have different ways of expressing our thoughts, they both include and are centered around what Christ has done when discussing our walk in Him.

Saying that, I really don't know what you are getting at with your last sentence.  Are you addressing this from a Calvinist point of view, as in is a sealed deal before we were ever born or are you asking how I apply Romans 8:28-30 to my walk and understanding?

[Alive]

I am simply pointing out that those things are in the past tense.

By history as it pertains to the Cross and our inclusion in those three events.

I am not being tricky or clever. It is very simple.

Just like the note in the book. We were In Christ of the Father when our Lord hung on the Cross--died, resurrected and ascended. What happened past tense to Christ also happened to us.

We died, we rose and we ascended and now our very life is hidden with Christ in God as the scripture says clearly.

We need to see from our Father's perspective in Heaven. We are locked up 'into Christ' and bound there sealed by the Holy Spirit. When He looks at us, He sees Christ.

That new birth is a very real event. This New Creation can't be reversed. God did it. We cannot 'undo' it. You or I have no power over death and Life. Only God has such power. He killed us and He gave us New Life. A human cannot walk into that or walk out of that.

Its not like getting onto a train and then exiting at some point down the track.

Brother--we died and were born again of an incorruptible seed and that seed is Christ who is Eternal Life.

Please try to set aside the doctrines you have held to and think in terms of Life.

Death and Life. This is not a construct of beliefs and doctrine. It is a matter of the power of a Life.

Have you read my threads called 'A Problem Solved' and 'Salvation is Relocation'.

Please do.

[OneLight]

52 minutes ago, George said:

Because salvation is not conditonal on what we DO, but what we BELIEVE.  The fruit is NATURAL because we're born again.

It's really strange you quote John 15:17-10 as you proof while not showing that not all who were in Christ, the vine, remained in Him, making it conditional.  Instead of pulling out a couple of verses and instruct people to read them carefully, here is the whole passage so people can real the whole message carefully to see that not all in Him are as you suggest.  What we do or not do is because of what we believe, Brother.  I suggest that is the whole theme of the Book of James.

1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

9 As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Notice in verse 2 that not all who are in Christ bear fruit and those who do not are taken away.  Again in verse 6 we read what happens to those who do not bear fruit.  They are said that they no longer abide in Christ, are cast out as a branch, then the branch withers, gathered up, thrown into the fire and burned.  Accepting this is true is important to the understand of how those who refuse to bear fruit no longer abide in Him, so not all branches are seen as His disciples.  Nobody can be in Christ unless they were saved.  Are you suggesting that not all saved are born again?  Being born again is a result of being saved.

Also notice the conditional statements "If you abide in Me" and "If you keep My commandments", which places conditions on what we do to remain in Him and be His disciples. Nobody who is not in Christ is saved.  I know it is a very unpopular way to read these verses, but it is right in front of the reader.  Sure, wouldn't life be so much easier if we never were held accountable for our actions!   The world lives this way, we should not. 

In summary, this is not how we should read scripture.

1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

9 As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

[George]

25 minutes ago, OneLight said:

It's really strange you quote John 15:17-10 as you proof while not showing that not all who were in Christ, the vine, remained in Him, making it conditional. 

Nope ... it's proof.  Listen, there will be those 'saved' who were not 'disciples' ... the text you're referring is about disciples, which every Christian should be.  Many are saved by the skin of their teeths ... hence the references ... saved only by fire.

[Alive]

9 minutes ago, George said:

Nope ... it's proof.  Listen, there will be those 'saved' who were not 'disciples' ... the text you're referring is about disciples, which every Christian should be.  Many are saved by the skin of their teeths ... hence the references ... saved only by fire.

Wood, hay and stubble...they themselves shall be saved.

[OneLight]

7 minutes ago, George said:

Nope ... it's proof.  Listen, there will be those 'saved' who were not 'disciples' ... the text you're referring is about disciples, which every Christian should be.  Many are saved by the skin of their teeths ... hence the references ... saved only by fire.

I agree that there will be those saved by are not following Christ close enough to be considered a disciple, but you did not address those who are in Him that bear no fruit.  They are also saved, even if they are not a disciple.  Those who go through being "saved through fire" had to of remained in Him in order to get to that place.  They were never cast away as in John 15.

[OneLight]

4 minutes ago, Alive said:

Wood, hay and stubble...they themselves shall be saved.

I don't believe anybody is saying any different, unless I am missing a response somewhere. 

[George]

20 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I agree that there will be those saved by are not following Christ close enough to be considered a disciple, but you did not address those who are in Him that bear no fruit.  They are also saved, even if they are not a disciple.  Those who go through being "saved through fire" had to of remained in Him in order to get to that place.  They were never cast away as in John 15.

Try and connect the two passages of John 15 ... and the passage that all that remains ... except themselves so as saved by fire.  It doesn't have to do with "conditional" salvation, but rather a lack of becoming a disciple and being what God created us to be. 

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, George said:

Try and connect the two passages of John 15 ... and the passage that all that remains ... except themselves so as saved by fire.  It doesn't have to do with "conditional" salvation, but rather a lack of becoming a disciple and being what God created us to be. 

Let's place them side by side and examine them.

1 Corinthians 3:15

If any man's ^G1536 work ^G2041 shall be burned, ^G2618 he shall suffer loss: ^G2210 but ^G1161 he himself ^G846 shall be saved; ^G4982 yet ^G1161 so ^G3779 as ^G5613 by ^G1223 fire. ^G4442

John 15:2, 6

Every ^G3956 branch ^G2814 in ^G1722 me ^G1698 that ^G846 beareth ^G5342 not ^G3361 fruit ^G2590 he taketh away: ^G142 and ^G2532 every ^G3956 branch that beareth ^G5342 fruit, ^G2590 he purgeth ^G2508 it, ^G846 that ^G2443 it may bring forth ^G5342 more ^G4119 fruit. ^G2590

 

If ^G3362 ➔ a man ^G5100 abide ^G3306 not ^G3362 in ^G1722 me, ^G1698 he is cast ^G906 forth ^G1854 as ^G5613 a branch, ^G2814 and ^G2532 is withered; ^G3583 and ^G2532 men gather ^G4863 them, ^G846 and ^G2532 cast ^G906 them into ^G1519 the fire, ^G4442 and ^G2532 they are burned. ^G2545

 

The two passages are speaking of two different acts, works and fruit.  Both speak of being burned in fire, but there is a difference.  ! Corinthians 3 uses the image as "as by fire" while John 15 uses the image "as a branch".  There is also a bigger difference.  Paul speaks of works and Jesus speaks of fruit.

 

work G2041 ἔργον ergon

1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied

   1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

fruit G2590 καρπός karpos

1. fruit

   1. the fruit of the trees, vines, of the fields

   2. the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

2. that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

   1. work, act, deed

   2. advantage, profit, utility

   3. praises, which are presented to God as a thank offering

   4. to gather fruit (i.e. a reaped harvest) into life eternal (as into a granary), is used in fig. discourse of those who by their labours have fitted souls to obtain eternal life

 

Though there seems to be similarities, they are not the same.  The fruit is bringing others to Christ while works can be anything done for the benefit of others.  To support that bearing fruit is bringing others to Christ, lets consider the parable of the sower from Mark 4:13-20, which is also in Matthew 13:18-23 and Luke 8:11-15

The Parable of the Sower Explained

And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?  The sower sows the word.  And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.  These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;  and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.  Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.  But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred."

Notice the good ground, it bears fruit, not works.   A seed, when planted bears its own.  Plant the seed of salvation, the fruit is salvation.

 

Now, lets look at one more parable from Matthew 25, the parable of the talents.  For the sake of space I will skip to the end about the unfaithful servant.

Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.  And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.  So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.  So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.  And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Notice what happened to the unfaithful servant that did not bring forth an increase, bear fruit.  What he had was taken from him and given to those who were faithful.  Then he was thrown into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You do realize that the same way you are using scripture from 1 Corinthians 3:15, where they are saved as by fire, is the same way that scripture is used to support purgatory don't you?

Now, for the second part of you reply.

2 hours ago, George said:

It doesn't have to do with "conditional" salvation, but rather a lack of becoming a disciple and being what God created us to be. 

Comparing John 15 with Mark 4:13-20 and Matthew 25:14-30 surely does support conditional salvation.  I can supply more scripture if you wish. 

 

 

[Justin Adams]

Sounds like a blending of Manichaeism,  Gnostic, and Augustinian semi-Calvinism to me. Easy to confuse the reader here that has not read church history and the various theological and Theodicy concepts that are still adhered to in many seminaries and much of the later theological treatise we find scattered about in the church at large.