The antichrist will....

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I did not name anyone's name. If the shoe fits....wear it. What is "gossip?"

Gossip: "casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details that are not confirmed as being true."

Just checking. 

[Diaste]

57 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Again I will ask, are these people getting the lost born again? Are they teaching Christ and Him Crucified and raised from the dead? I have heard most of those in the original list preach - some in person, some on TV. I can assure you they are preaching Christ.  According to Paul, we should rejoice that Christ is being preached. 

You should be wise enough to know, it is difficult to part people with their money. In these cases, it is GOD doing it.  I have seen supernatural giving take place: when all of a sudden hundreds of people run to the front and throw money at the feet of the preacher.  Did you ever notice, some TV preachers are always just a week or so from going under? They are always in the red. Yet, others never run in the red in their budget. Why is this? I can only guess: it is because God blesses some because of their giving and their faith, and for others God is limited in how He can bless them because of their giving and their faith. 

Is a TV preacher a tare? What if God called YOU to be on TV?

This is missing the idea. But I have said all I care to at this point.

[iamlamad]

Does anyone here so worried about a TV preacher flying the latest jet every consider Job? What was the "Cadillac" of travel then? it was camels. Most people had NONE. Was it fair that Job had so many and others had none? It was GOD. 

Job 42:12

So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

 

What would any one man need of 6000 camels? He could only ride one at a time. Well, they could travel, one camel for each family member. I wonder, did people with no camels complain that he had 6000? 

 

By the way, WHO MADE Him rich? Of course, it was GOD. But I am assure you, God did not create 6000 camels - they came from PEOPLE. Perhaps some people GAVE Him camels. Perhaps God caused great business deals.  My point is, God LOVES to make His people wealthy.  What He does not like is when wealth has His people. 

 

What is a preacher to do if someone gives them something? Suppose someone gave you a new Rolls Royce for the very purpose of you DRIVING it?  You would have to drive it. If you refused it, you would be cheating that person of a blessing. 

 

Perhaps a good thing to do is find a preacher wanting a plane, and send money to help him. You might be surprised what God might give to you in return. Always remember, "whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap." What ever measure we use to sow, God will use that same measure to return to us blessings. It is scripture. If people are in the habit of giving away planes, God will move heaven and earth to give them a plane. 

 

Some preachers are believing God for their next meal, while others are believing God for their next plane - one is not wrong and another right: both are right to believe God for what they desire. I guarantee, it it not beyond God's ability to provide a preacher with the latest Jet - any more than it did to give Job all those camels.

[dhchristian]

5 hours ago, luigi said:

If you think about it, when the general populace ask "who is able to make war with the beast", it is basically asking, "what other system is able to contend with the beasts wonderful new system"? This means the beast's system will provide all the carnal goodies mankind will worship the beast and dragon for.

In Daniel 8:25 we have a description of the little horn (a.k.a. the Antichrist) causing business to prosper.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

I Agree, and the mark of the beast is more of a seduction than a persecution. Life will return to Normal if you accept this mark. Good point Luigi. The question becomes "what of the prosperity preachers then"? As others here have pointed out. 

[luigi]

51 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree, and the mark of the beast is more of a seduction than a persecution. Life will return to Normal if you accept this mark. Good point Luigi. The question becomes "what of the prosperity preachers then"? As others here have pointed out. 

 

51 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree, and the mark of the beast is more of a seduction than a persecution. Life will return to Normal if you accept this mark. Good point Luigi. The question becomes "what of the prosperity preachers then"? As others here have pointed out. 

I see material prosperity preachers and those who see material prosperity as being from the Lord, will be very impressed by the little horn, who also being a material prosperity advocate, and causing industry to prosper, will thereby have the adoration of all material prosperity advocates, who represent all who are not written in the lambs book of life (Revelation 13:8) .

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[Diaste]

On 5/27/2020 at 5:19 PM, iamlamad said:

I hope you all realize that not everyone is called to the ministry of evangelism, and continually preach to get people born again. God raises up specialists that concentrate on one area of the gospel. If God has called someone to teach prosperity, and someone comes against his or her teaching, they just may find themselves coming against the Holy Spirit that placed them in that ministry.  It really is not wise to think our job is to judge TV preachers. 

 I think people make a big deal about the wealth of these mega pastors and I don't see that as a worthy issue for condemnation. Material items that carry the perception of wealth are not wrong or evil.

Our Father not only paves His streets with the purest gold but builds His city on foundations of gemstones and carves gates of pearls. Having great wealth in this world isn't sinful as we see a great deal of prosperity in many of the people which followed, and do follow the Lord. It is not however a sign of godliness, righteousness, nor purity of heart.

People get caught up in some weird idea wealth is the problem when it's 'the love of wealth' which is the root of all evil. No one knows if these mega rich mega pastors love the money or not; that's a heart issue. What can be known is the lie of the prosperity doctrine. It just does not exist. No where does the Bible say, "Give $100 dollars to a ministry and you will get $10,000 back." Yet this is what is presented.

These mega pastors use God to dupe their followers. They say things like God told them in a vision they need a plane to further the ministry. One justified the need for a private jet because commercial jets are 'metal tubes filled with demons' and one cannot possibly fly in those. He said this on his weekly TV show. A pretty common theme.  Now, people don't have to support this garbage. But if the lure of prosperity is not paraded out like a lottery then there's no enticement either. 

If the prosperity doctrine were true there would be a snowball effect. If people actually received the hundred fold blessing of planting a seed of $100 dollars poverty would be eliminated. Everyone would have their own personal money tree. Give a $1000 to get $100,000 or even $10,000. It's completely ridiculous and it doesn't happen. 

Worse is the inclusive doctrine pervading the preaching of the mega pastors. This doctrine removes the truth Jesus is the only way as well the standard of holiness in the eyes of Our Father. You can listen to Osteen, Meyers, Copeland, Duplantis, Dollar, etc., speak to this and deny Jesus is the only way and say any lifestyle is approved as long as the heart is pure. 

This isn't made up. It's in interviews, sermons and books in their own words. And to this point I have yet to hear any of them preach Jesus is the only way to heaven through repentance belief and faith. Scripture says, "Repent and follow me." not kneel at a altar call and ask Jesus into your heart.

 

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, Addy said:

Since I am the one who made reference to the JET.... I will add that it is not the WEALTH of these TV preachers that bother me... I could care less how much money someone has... My issue is the teaching of the WORD of FAITH doctrine as well as the PROSPERITY doctrine which seem to go hand in hand... These doctrines are based on GREED... ENTITLEMENT and FALSE PROMISES to people with the NAME of JESUS stamped on it.... This is what I have a problem with.

I am fully aware that God is GRACIOUS... GENEROUS and even LAVISHLY so... HE is a good God... Please do not assume that my issue is with WEALTH.

My issue is the teaching of the WORD of FAITH doctrine  Strange: because anything we get from heaven we get by faith. First, we all got born again by faith. There is a verse that says we cannot please God without faith.  There is a verse that tells us not to even think or imagine we can get something from heaven with wavering faith.  The bible talks of "no faith," "little faith," "where is your faith," and other such phrases. I would think teaching faith would and should be PRIMARY for every pastor.  

I think you are mistaken that teaching faith and greed go hand in hand. Without a doubt, some teachers / preachers have allowed money to have them, rather then them just having money.  But this is not just faith teachers, it could be said for all preachers.  It is absolute truth that faith is in the bible, and should be taught. That would be faith for healing, faith to grow in God, faith in every aspect of Christian living - for without faith we cannot please God. And certainly, along with the other areas, we need faith for finances. There is verse after verse in the bible about how God wishes to prosper us. 

It is a grave mistake to "throw out the baby with the bath water," so to speak. We eat the hay but leave the stubble. I personally would NEVER wish to go back to where I was in my Christian walk before I heard teachings on faith. They totally changed my life.

For example, the first such message I heard was on faith for healing. I used to get the flu every flu season. So I boldly said by faith, "I am not getting the flu again, because Jesus carried the flu for me and in my place."

Then, strange things began to happen: supernatural things: I would be totally normal one moment, and in the next moment would have every symptom of the flu. So just as I was taught, I would fight the symptoms with the Word of God - and they would leave.  But after a few minutes, they would return! This went on maybe ten times a day for 30 days straight - and then they quit. I had no symptoms of the flu then for a few years. But one day I woke up in Idaho in the middle of a blizzard night and had every symptom of the flu on me again. I got out of bed, dressed for wicked weather, and went out. I walked around the block seven times, telling the devil where he could put his flu symptoms  - quoting healing verses.  

You see, the devil was trying to steal my faith by putting symptoms on me - to see if I would receive them.  He did not win, I WON, through faith in healing verses. That was many years ago: I have gone perhaps 40 years without the flu. 

What did I do when I first heard of the corona virus?  I said loudly so all would hear: it is not coming to my house! And it won't either.  

Things like this is why I would NEVER want to go back to where I was before I heard my first message on faith. Oh, by the way, that was a two tape set by Kenneth E Hagin on healing: in introduction to the Word of Faith movement. 

I think, if you were able to ask a hundred people in the WoF movement if they would wish to go back to where they were - not one in a hundred would say yes.

Considering finances, I was at the bottom of the barrel, so to speak, for years. While others were working their way up the financial ladder, so to speak, I was in the Army, then the Air Force.  When I got out, I had to start at the bottom of the ladder. I also wanted to finish college and get some kind of degree. I found a job with the US Forest Service, but it was half time. That was OK because I had VA benefits that paid a small income if I was in college full time. We drove old cars. We lived in apartments. Then I heard my first message on faith. 

I began using my faith for finances: I lived on prosperity verses in the bible. I called my checking account FAT with money. I called my billfold FAT with money. Day after day, week after week, year after year, I did this. We finally bought one of the oldest houses in the town, so that was a step up. I paid $36,000 for it. But then, just like I had good sense, I would walk around that house calling it very valuable, and saying (faith speaks!) that when I got ready to sell, people would be standing in line ready to pay top dollar. 

So year after year, for about ten years, I talked to my finances, and it seemed year after year they got worse. That is, until one day. 

I had been going to Kenneth Hagin Campmeetings year after year, and finally took the tour of the Rhema Bible college campus. I did not see a thing. Rivers of tears flooded my eyes. I did not hear words, but i knew God was calling me to attend Rhema.

I was praying at the church one Saturday night all alone. I was telling God that if He wanted me to quit my job with the forest service, I would, but it wouldn’t be my first choice, because I had enough years to retire. I was just too young to retire. Suddenly God spoke to me and told me to pray for congress to write a bill to give me an early retirement.  It sounded like an audible voice. I looked around and found an old envelope and pencil and wrote it down. I prayed what God said to pray; then thanked Him for it day after day. 

About a month later, a prophetess came to my church for meetings.  On the third day she laid hands on me and spoke out with authority: “haven’t I already said I’m going to do something different with you? And you can carefully count within 90 days – I said you can carefully count within 90 days – because I have launched you already into ministry!” She shouted that that!

We went home and marked out the 90 days on a calendar. The 90th day was Valentine’s day. In a situation like this, there is nothing we could do but say as the Virgin Mary said: “let it come to pass even as you have said!”  So we waited, and thanked God for bringing it to pass. By the news, we knew that on the 88th day, the House of Representatives passed the bill, and on the 89th day the Senate passed the bill. However, they had separate bills! It took until, if I remember correctly, April the 1st until they agreed on a billed and it was signed in law.

 
So on the first of April, I put in my paperwork. That very afternoon, as I entered my boss’s office to ask him something, the phone rang. It was someone from Washington DC wanting to speak to me! I took the phone and some gentleman tried to explain to me that I couldn’t retire – this bill was for white-collar workers! My spirit was jumping up and down with excitement. I told the gentleman to do what he had to do, but I was retiring! As soon as I hung up, my boss asked me what was said. I told him that he said I couldn’t retire – it was for white-collar workers. He asked me what I would do, and I told him that the guy would call me back tomorrow and change his mind. Several others asked me the same question, and I told them all the same thing: the gentleman from DC would change his mind and call back and tell me I could retire! 

Sure enough, the next day he called back and said I could retire! Then I found out from the personnel office that I would have to pay in a “deposit” before I could retire. Part of the time that I was claiming for the years needed to retire was my ten years in the military, and I didn’t pay anything into the retirement fund for those years. I knew nothing about this deposit until the day before I needed it!  No one knew how much it would be. My office found out the next morning from headquarters that I needed to pay in $6700. Wow! And I needed it immediately!

I said to myself: “God, it is going to be fun to see how you can get $6700 in to my hands in one day! So I went about my work that day rejoicing. I was in my shop when one or the scientists came up and said “how is the retirement going” Is it on or off today? (Everyone at the lab knew all that had happened.)

I answered “oh, it’s on, for sure, but now I have another problem. I found out what my deposit is. It is $6700, and I need it within 24 hours!” The next word that came out of my mouth did not go through my mind – they just came right out of my spirit and out of my mouth before I could stop them: “Would you loan it to me?”  I would have never said that to him!

  
He was startled that I said it, but then he said “it is surprising that you ask, because I just took out a loan on my house to do some repairs, and I have $10,000 in my bank account. Yes, I’ll loan it to you!

For the benefit of the readers, all of us at the lab knew that anyone retiring early would get a $25,000 bonus as an “incentive” to go ahead and do it. So this loan would only be for a few weeks until the paperwork was finished and I was finally retired. 
I promised him a $500 bonus for loaning it to me. (I might add here that his wife was furious! She did not want him to do it!) We went to the bank and in a short while, I had the $6700 I needed. I immediately wrote a check and sent it in with my paperwork, right on schedule!

Another note to the readers: I tried to get this loan on my own, but was told by several banks that it would take several days, that I didn’t have. So if he hadn’t done it, God would have had to come up with another source. We all found out on the third day (the third workday) from the day this early retirement program opened (which again I believe was 1 April, 1994) that it would close that evening.

In other words, it was only open for three days! If I had not received my $6700 loan, and completed my paperwork quickly, the window would have closed without me! Several of the people at the lab wanted to retire early, but they wanted to find out how much their retirement paycheck would be first. Their opportunity vanished before they ever got the answer back from the personnel office! But God had set me up in advance to succeed! I had my “intent to retire” paperwork in within a few minutes of day one!
So I retired early, collected my $25,000 bonus, paid of the $6700 loan with a big bonus, and went away rejoicing! God, the creator of the universe, had moved the Congress of the United States, just for me!!

What really happened was that using my faith, I totally destroyed the poverty the devil had tried to keep me in. When I was ready to sell my house, I was thinking I would be happy to sell it for $50,000. But the real estate lady said no, $75,000! It sold for that within minutes of being on the market! It was like God gave me ANOTHER $25,000. 

Since that time, I have been blessed financially. When I desire to give to some ministry, I have money to give! I can only thank God, for He is our supply! 

Can you see now why I would NEVER wish to back to where I was before I was given that cassette tape on healing? My life has never been the same. I used to be a normal person, down one day, up the next, discouraged half the time or most of the time.  So I started SAYING (Faith speaks) "Thank God, I never get discouraged; I am always encouraged with life!" I can honestly say, I have not had a down day, or been discouraged in perhaps 30 years now.

I have been poor - and I have been blessed. I can assure you, blessed is better! 

And you wish to knock faith in God? Really?

Edited May 29, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 I think people make a big deal about the wealth of these mega pastors and I don't see that as a worthy issue for condemnation. Material items that carry the perception of wealth are not wrong or evil.

Our Father not only paves His streets with the purest gold but builds His city on foundations of gemstones and carves gates of pearls. Having great wealth in this world isn't sinful as we see a great deal of prosperity in many of the people which followed, and do follow the Lord. It is not however a sign of godliness, righteousness, nor purity of heart.

People get caught up in some weird idea wealth is the problem when it's 'the love of wealth' which is the root of all evil. No one knows if these mega rich mega pastors love the money or not; that's a heart issue. What can be known is the lie of the prosperity doctrine. It just does not exist. No where does the Bible say, "Give $100 dollars to a ministry and you will get $10,000 back." Yet this is what is presented.

These mega pastors use God to dupe their followers. They say things like God told them in a vision they need a plane to further the ministry. One justified the need for a private jet because commercial jets are 'metal tubes filled with demons' and one cannot possibly fly in those. He said this on his weekly TV show. A pretty common theme.  Now, people don't have to support this garbage. But if the lure of prosperity is not paraded out like a lottery then there's no enticement either. 

If the prosperity doctrine were true there would be a snowball effect. If people actually received the hundred fold blessing of planting a seed of $100 dollars poverty would be eliminated. Everyone would have their own personal money tree. Give a $1000 to get $100,000 or even $10,000. It's completely ridiculous and it doesn't happen. 

Worse is the inclusive doctrine pervading the preaching of the mega pastors. This doctrine removes the truth Jesus is the only way as well the standard of holiness in the eyes of Our Father. You can listen to Osteen, Meyers, Copeland, Duplantis, Dollar, etc., speak to this and deny Jesus is the only way and say any lifestyle is approved as long as the heart is pure. 

This isn't made up. It's in interviews, sermons and books in their own words. And to this point I have yet to hear any of them preach Jesus is the only way to heaven through repentance belief and faith. Scripture says, "Repent and follow me." not kneel at a altar call and ask Jesus into your heart.

You are right: NO ONE knows what is in the heart of a teacher or preacher. I  tried to talk to a preacher that emphasize tithing all the time.  He would not talk with me. I left his church. 

Again I will agree: the way some of these people promise a hundred fold return is total nonsense. God COULD give a hundred fold return, or He could give a 10 fold return. That is up to GOD! 

AS for planes, Why do people have a problem with a plane? What possible use could Job have had with thousands of camels? Yet, God blessed Him with camels.  In the bible, God has made people very wealthy, and He has caused many to be carried away as slaves. It is very simple: When people love God and serve Him, God will bless them all He can, up to their level of faith. 

Again, I must agree: In the end, Jesus is the ONLY WAY into heaven. But on the other hand, if people love the Father and deny the Son, God will to to extreme lengths to get them to the place where they will believe in the Son.  He is not willing that ANY should perish. 

I think you erred in putting several names in one pot.  They all have different ministries and they all preach different messages. I know many people misunderstood what Osteen said on a popular Youtube video. He did NOT say that Jesus is not the only way to heaven. He did say he agreed with the caller that Jesus is the only way. Then he said "I believe my way [Jesus] with all my heart..." He did say, he will let God be the judge of who goes to heaven. He said ONLY GOD can look at someone's heart. 

In other words, Joel would not tell a Buddhist they were on the way to hell. He does not think it is his place to do so. I probably would, but do it as nicely as I could! 

The truth is, we can't look at these people's heart: only God can do that. If there is a book written by one of these people where it says in black and white for all to see, that they don't believe Jesus is the only way, then we have a right to speak up.  I have not seen such a book. 

[Diaste]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, Joel would not tell a Buddhist they were on the way to hell. He does not think it is his place to do so. I probably would, but do it as nicely as I could! 

Right. Those who believe on the Son are not condemned, but those who believe not are condemned beforehand. 

Joel has to be inclusive and it's a lie. He would rather be seen as a people pleaser than a God pleaser.

This inclusive doctrine is in no way limited to Osteen. 

But you are free to believe as you see fit.

[existential mabel]

https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/6271/latin-american-moment-for-catholicism-after-jesuits-elect-venezuelan-black-pope-

the first time for Catholicism that the top two posts are both occupied by Jesuits from the same part of the world. The Jesuits this morning elected Venezuelan Fr Arturo Sosa Abascal to be the new leader a role known as the “Black Pope” because of the order’s global influence and because the society have often been seen as a parallel power to the papacy.  

Edited May 31, 2020 by existential mabel