Eternal torment or eternal death

[OneLight]

54 minutes ago, Butch5 said:

It is eternal death. However, the word translated forever doesn't mean forever.

What does it mean then?

[Butch5]

11 minutes ago, OneLight said:

What does it mean then?

It means an age. The Greek word aion, which is sometimes translated as everlasting or forever, is used to translate the Hebrew word olam. Olam mean, beyond the horizon. What is beyond the horizon cannot be seen. When the OT was translated into Greek, the translators used the Greek word aion, which means age. We can see from Scripture that aion doesn't mean forever, because Jesus and the apostles spoke of the end of the aion. If an aion ends it can't be forever or everlasting.

Jesus,

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 KJV)

The apostles,

 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matt. 24:3 KJV)

Paul,

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb. 9:26 KJV)

In each of these verses the word "world" is the Greek word aion. As you can see the translators are rather loose with their translation of this word. The English words world and forever have nothing in common. They have two completely different meanings yet for some reason the translators have used these two English words to translate a single Greek word. It's not just these two words, they have used other words to translate aion also.

 

 

[OneLight]

10 minutes ago, Butch5 said:

It means an age. The Greek word aion, which is sometimes translated as everlasting or forever, is used to translate the Hebrew word olam. Olam mean, beyond the horizon. What is beyond the horizon cannot be seen. When the OT was translated into Greek, the translators used the Greek word aion, which means age. We can see from Scripture that aion doesn't mean forever, because Jesus and the apostles spoke of the end of the aion. If an aion ends it can't be forever or everlasting.

Jesus,

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 KJV)

The apostles,

 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matt. 24:3 KJV)

Paul,

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb. 9:26 KJV)

In each of these verses the word "world" is the Greek word aion. As you can see the translators are rather loose with their translation of this word. The English words world and forever have nothing in common. They have two completely different meanings yet for some reason the translators have used these two English words to translate a single Greek word. It's not just these two words, they have used other words to translate aion also.

Here is the basics for aion (eons) G165

1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. the worlds, universe
3. period of time, age

It seems strange that in Revelation 20:10 the word is repeated if it just meant age.  It says for ever and ever, or aions  (eons) of the aions (eons).  It take it to mean for eternity, be it torment (which I hold to) or death, which is the opposite of life God gives to all who believe.  It very well does mean an age in some places, but not when it speaks of the lake of fire and brimstone.

[Butch5]

6 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Here is the basics for aion (eons) G165

1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. the worlds, universe
3. period of time, age

It seems strange that in Revelation 20:10 the word is repeated if it just meant age.  It says for ever and ever, or aions  (eons) of the aions (eons).  It take it to mean for eternity, be it torment (which I hold to) or death, which is the opposite of life God gives to all who believe.  It very well does mean an age in some places, but not when it speaks of the lake of fire and brimstone.

The problem is that the word can't have opposing meanings. It can't mean finite and infinite, that's contradictory. Also, the Lake of Fire doesn't burn for eternity. John said those not found in the book would cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus indicates that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. Which one is it? The only way to reconcile these passages is if the Lake of Fire and Gehenna are the same place. Gehenna is a valley outside of Jerusalem. If that valley was full of burning dead bodies it would be a lake of fire. The Place that Jesus calls Gehenna is from Isaiah 66.

 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 KJV)

Notice what's burning here, it's corpses, or dead bodies. Jeremiah speaks of this place too.

 38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:1 KJV)

Jeremiah says that this whole valley of dead bodies will one day be made holy to the Lord. It' not going to burn forever.

[OneLight]

9 minutes ago, Butch5 said:

The problem is that the word can't have opposing meanings. It can't mean finite and infinite, that's contradictory. Also, the Lake of Fire doesn't burn for eternity. John said those not found in the book would cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus indicates that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. Which one is it? The only way to reconcile these passages is if the Lake of Fire and Gehenna are the same place. Gehenna is a valley outside of Jerusalem. If that valley was full of burning dead bodies it would be a lake of fire. The Place that Jesus calls Gehenna is from Isaiah 66.

 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 KJV)

Notice what's burning here, it's corpses, or dead bodies. Jeremiah speaks of this place too.

 38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:1 KJV)

Jeremiah says that this whole valley of dead bodies will one day be made holy to the Lord. It' not going to burn forever.

For ever and ever, or for eons and eons.  They are not contradictory unless someone tries to assign different meanings each time it is used, which is not what I was saying.  Don't forget, hell is cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14.   I know it is not a pleasant thought that this will go on for eons and eons, but that is what scripture points out. 

[Butch5]

9 hours ago, OneLight said:

For ever and ever, or for eons and eons.  They are not contradictory unless someone tries to assign different meanings each time it is used, which is not what I was saying.  Don't forget, hell is cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14.   I know it is not a pleasant thought that this will go on for eons and eons, but that is what scripture points out. 

I know you didn't say that. I was just pointing out how translators are sometimes loose with their translations. They do assign different meanings. In one place they translate it forever and in another, where forever obviously doesn't work, they translate it world or something else. In Rev. 20:14 it's Hades that is cast into the Lake of Fire, death and Hades, the grave.

As far as time is concerned, I think it's possible that aion is being used as figure of speech too. We still do that today. How often have we said something like, these people are taking forever. We obviously don't literally mean they're taking forever as in eternity. It's just a figure of speech for a long time. I would also submit that the phrase forever and ever is a superlative. If forever means eternity, what does "and ever mean"? How can there be more than eternity? Usually it's ages of the ages. One thing I think we need to keep in mind is that Revelation is a book full of symbolism.

[OneLight]

5 minutes ago, Butch5 said:

I know you didn't say that. I was just pointing out how translators are sometimes loose with their translations. They do assign different meanings. In one place they translate it forever and in another, where forever obviously doesn't work, they translate it world or something else. In Rev. 20:14 it's Hades that is cast into the Lake of Fire, death and Hades, the grave.

As far as time is concerned, I think it's possible that aion is being used as figure of speech too. We still do that today. How often have we said something like, these people are taking forever. We obviously don't literally mean they're taking forever as in eternity. It's just a figure of speech for a long time. I would also submit that the phrase forever and ever is a superlative. If forever means eternity, what does "and ever mean"? How can there be more than eternity? Usually it's ages of the ages. One thing I think we need to keep in mind is that Revelation is a book full of symbolism.

Our every day conversations are not scripture.  God knows what He meant and eons is backed up with other scriptures.  Matthew 18:8 and 25:41 tells us the fire is everlasting.  As I stated, I understand there are those who don't believe a loving God would ever torment someone for eternity.  All I can say is we will have to wait and see.

[Butch5]

14 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Our every day conversations are not scripture.  God knows what He meant and eons is backed up with other scriptures.  Matthew 18:8 and 25:41 tells us the fire is everlasting.  As I stated, I understand there are those who don't believe a loving God would ever torment someone for eternity.  All I can say is we will have to wait and see.

These passages don't tell us that the fire is forever, that's the point. Aion cannot mean eternal. I agree, our conversations aren't Scripture, but they do show how words are used.

What someone "wants" to believe doesn't really matter. What matters is what the Scriptures actually say. The Scriptures say that God cannot lie. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die'. He didn't say the soul that sins shall be tormented in fire for eternity. If God said the punishment for sin is death, how can anyone say it's something else? Paul said the wages of sin is death. He didn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment in fire. The issue here is God's character. 

Another problem with the ETC doctrine is that it has the wicked getting eternal life. However, in Scripture we find that eternal life is the gift of God to the believer, not the unbeliever. 

The ETC doctrine is based on this mistranslation of aion. Take that away and there is no support for the doctrine.

[Heleadethme]

Haven't tried to study this all out, but I did notice that the same Greek word aionios (G166) is used to describe both eternal life as well as eternal punishment.  If it only means for an age then we would only have 'immortality' for an age and eternal life wouldn't be so  eternal. 

 https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G166&t=KJV  (Check out the usage of the word aionios in scripture at the bottom of the page in the link.)

 

[Alive]

This is a word study that is somewhat long, but a look at it may be of some help to some folks.