Name That King! Revealing the Beast.

[BeauJangles]

46 minutes ago, The Light said:

Well presented. I do not agree with any of it, but you tried to be thorough.

I'm sorry, but this does sound a bit on the humours side. Okay, I'll go away now... 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

  Sister, you messed up almost before you got started. Did you not read "nor by letter as if by us"

AS IF by us means NOT BY US. Paul was not sure how they heard that "the day" had started and they were in it.  (Granted, since this is his second letter, they had his first. 

Verse 5 makes THE TRUTH being given perfectly clear, the Truth laid out, in the most simple terms available, right before your very eyes.  What do you think?  God is trying to fool and confuse everyone by saying one thing yet meaning another?    That isn't the work of God.  God is not the author of confusion.  

Seriously, that is what you are receiving? "As if by us" means NOT BY US? 

That I almost messed up?  Those are GODS WORDS, not mine.  

How do you justify changing the time of 1 THESS  4 to pre Satan?  
 

5  Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?

3 No one you should deceive in not one way because {it is} if not {until} shall have come the apostasy first and shall have been revealed the man of lawlessness the son of destruction

4  the {one} opposing and exalting himself above every so-called god or object of worship so as for him in the temple of God to sit down setting forth he himself that is God

5  Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?
  
You either will receive Gods Truth, a delusion, or be deceived.  



 When the world is worshipping Satan as God, they are no longer worshipping God as God.  It is a falling away from the worship of God AND they don't even know it.  They have no idea they have departed from God.  I can see the stationary yet falling away aspect.
Thank you. 

Saddest thing -   the mystery of iniquity already placing all these doctrines that make void the word of God, making sure that those seeking can't hardly find it.  We are surely living the famine of the end times. 



Gods Word is not confusing. 
Gods truth is not hard to find.
Gods plan is simple.
Until the doctrines of man are added to the mix.  



 

 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why do you always have me do your homework? Did you not read how the beheaded are JUST THEN showing up in heaven? Where then did these beheaded come from?

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Note carefully: WHERE did they just come from: From the enforcing of the MARK and the enforcing of the image of the Beast - the very events that is going to CAUSE those days of GT. They got victory over the Beast, the mark and image by REFUSING to bow to the image, and REFUSING the take the mark - so they got victory by losing their heads.

Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

How is this truth?  

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

How is this truth?  

Do you doubt if the word of God is truth? Or do you wish to know how someone could be put to death and still not a hair of their head perish?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Verse 5 makes THE TRUTH being given perfectly clear, the Truth laid out, in the most simple terms available, right before your very eyes.  What do you think?  God is trying to fool and confuse everyone by saying one thing yet meaning another?    That isn't the work of God.  God is not the author of confusion.  

Seriously, that is what you are receiving? "As if by us" means NOT BY US? 

That I almost messed up?  Those are GODS WORDS, not mine.  

How do you justify changing the time of 1 THESS  4 to pre Satan?  
 

5  Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?

3 No one you should deceive in not one way because {it is} if not {until} shall have come the apostasy first and shall have been revealed the man of lawlessness the son of destruction

4  the {one} opposing and exalting himself above every so-called god or object of worship so as for him in the temple of God to sit down setting forth he himself that is God

5  Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?
  
You either will receive Gods Truth, a delusion, or be deceived.  



 When the world is worshipping Satan as God, they are no longer worshipping God as God.  It is a falling away from the worship of God AND they don't even know it.  They have no idea they have departed from God.  I can see the stationary yet falling away aspect.
Thank you. 

Saddest thing -   the mystery of iniquity already placing all these doctrines that make void the word of God, making sure that those seeking can't hardly find it.  We are surely living the famine of the end times. 



Gods Word is not confusing. 
Gods truth is not hard to find.
Gods plan is simple.
Until the doctrines of man are added to the mix.  

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Verse 5 makes THE TRUTH being given perfectly clear, the Truth laid out, in the most simple terms available, right before your very eyes. 

Let's look together:

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

What are "these things?" We have to go back to what he just wrote:

3...that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You are right, verse 5 is very simple. Paul taught the message of verses 3 & 4 while he was there. Our job then is the discover Paul's intent: what was he thinking when he wrote this? (Most people who just read over it lightly miss his whole message.) Don't forget what Peter told us about Paul's writing:

 

¹⁶ As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

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God is trying to fool and confuse everyone by saying one thing yet meaning another?

Words have meaning. It is up to us to discover the intent of the Holy Spirit when He had Paul write. God certainly could have written out in very plain words when the rapture would come, but it should be clear to all that He did not. He therefore wants us to dig deep and understand.  Some of Paul's passages takes much meditation and waiting on the Lord to find His intent.  No, God is not trying to fool anyone. 

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"As if by us" means NOT BY US? 

I hope you catch on soon.  Stop and think: apparently they had written to Paul for answers because somehow they heard that the Day of the Lord had already come. It should be apparent that they did not make it clear in their letter to Paul just how they learned that the DAY had already come.  The Amplified text should make this verse more clear to you:

whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.

In other words, their false information could have come:

1. By a false prophecy
2. By someone's false teaching
3. By someone pretending to be Paul writing to them.

You can be absolutely sure PAUL did not write them and tell them that THE DAY had already come. He knew better! He knew that the rapture had to come first, then the man of sin would be revealed, and THEN people would know that the DAY had started and they were now in it. 

By the way, this fits John in Revelation: the great crowd too large to number (the raptured church) was seen in heaven in chapter 7, but were raptured before that: just before the 6th seal events and the start of the Day of the Lord. Then the 7th trumpet will mark that moment in time when the man of sin will be revealed as the Beast. 

(In other word, at that time the Day of the Lord HAD NOT COME. It is still future to use today.)

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That I almost messed up?

When you wrote that this supposed letter was Paul's first letter, yes, you messed up. You are mistaken. It was a  "letter [alleged to be] from us"   So not "almost:" it was a real error. 

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How do you justify changing the time of 1 THESS  4 to pre Satan?  

What on earth is the meaning of "pre satan?" Let's suppose you mean pre - the days of GT when Satan is ruling.  In other words, I guess you are asking, how do I justify changing the rapture to pretrib. Sister, GOD made it pretrib and I only confirm that was HIS intent. I could ask, how do posttribbers justify changing the time of the rapture to post trib?

How? I go by what Paul wrote. He was the one that got the revelation of the rapture. We must therefore go by PAUL'S timing. Where in time does Paul place his rapture? Simple: JUST BEFORE WRATH. And just before the DAY of wrath. In Revelation that is easy to find: the day of wrath is announced at the 6th seal and begins with the first trumpet judgment. 

It is no mistake that God showed John the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter: Rev. 7.

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You either will receive Gods Truth, a delusion, or be deceived.  

  I agree. What is the truth of Paul's message here? He tells us in very clear language that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining him is taken out of the way. 

Then we read  in verse 3b that the man of sin IS REVEALED. Sister, HOW is he revealed? Only by the restrainer being taken out of the way. Paul TOLD US THAT. 

the ONLY WAY then that Paul could write "Is revealed" is that the restrain was at that time "taken out of the way." And the only PLACE Paul could have had in mind was in verse 3a, where we find the "apostasia" or the "departing."

You can ignore these truths and believe anything else, which would be false doctrine. I highly recommend you camp out here, and mediate this passage for a few months, praying in the Spirit. God will reveal HIS intent in this passage to you. 

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When the world is worshipping Satan as God, they are no longer worshipping God as God.  

Now, this is a true statement! Good job! I might ask, what does this statement have to do with the price of tea in China? (Nothing). The time-frame of this statement is during the last half of the 70th week. The rapture is already history at this time, so this statement is not relevant to the rapture. 

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It is a falling away from the worship of God AND they don't even know it.  They have no idea they have departed from God. 

There is a problem here: do YOU SEE it? The word "apostasia"  gives the idea of a sudden departing, but has absolutely NO INFORMATION as to what is being departed FROM.  In another KJV use of this word, it is stated that the departing is from MOSES. Here Paul added no such word. It is just a "departing." And to be truthful, a "falling away" does not fit the context. A "falling away" does not fit being "taken out of the way" - as if by an outside force. Neither does a falling away (we would have to add "from what") fit a restraining force being removed so that the man of sin could be revealed.  Next, for Paul's arguement as to when people would KNOW that the Day has started, how would anyone know when enough people had fallen away (from what we don't know) to fit Paul's argument? No, a "falling away" does not fit the context.  Would the rapture be a significant enough departing so that all could say "now this is what Paul was saying...?"  I think so. Perhaps half the population will suddenly disappear: all believers and then all the children.

On the other hand, if the "departing" was really the rapture, it WOULD fit "taken out of the way," and it would fit Paul's theme for this passage. And it would make good sense as the Holy Spirit being the restraining power.  

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all these doctrines that make void the word of God, 

If your meaning is this thread, then perhaps you are right: ignoring the facts of this passage and just believing what someone WANTS to believe could well be making the truth void. What are the facts?
1. In 3b the man of sin IS revealed.
2. In verses 6 - 8 the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the restraining power is removed. 
3. A "falling away" is not a good translation: a departing fits the context better. 
4. Whatever the meaning Paul had in mind for "apostasia" there is no other choice: it has to be the restrainer "taken out of the way.

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Gods Word is not confusing. 

When it comes to Paul's Epistles, Peter would disagree with you. 

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Gods truth is not hard to find.

Most people can understand John 3:16 on the first reading. This is not so of some of Paul's writings, as proven by Peter. 
Most people don't understand much of Revelation. It is perhaps more difficult than Paul. 

Revelation knowledge is really not "hard" either. The key is meditating on a passage  - maybe for months - and praying much in the Spirit. This is one anyone can activate the Holy Spirit as the Teacher. The sad part is, few believers can pray in the Spirit according to Paul. 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, The Light said:

Well presented. I do not agree with any of it, but you tried to be thorough.

You can be wrong of you choose to be. It seems you have chosen. On the other hand, you really could choose to believe Revelation AS WRITTEN, and quit trying to rearrange it to find your pet theory!

Where you miss it: 

Your error in theory begins in chapters 4 & 5, where God sets the timing of the first seals. For example in Rev. 4 & 5:

^4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the father in 95 AD. WHEN could this have been in the vision?  Before He ascended.

^4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

The Holy Spirit (as the seven Spirits of God) still IN the throne room. WHEN? Before Jesus ascended.

^5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

A search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals - that ended in failure. WHEN? Before Christ arose from the dead. 

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

When did Jesus ascend? WHEN was the Holy Spirit sent down? 

Ignore these truths, and you end up in error.

MORE that you miss:

All four horsemen do not ride together. The white rides alone. 

The three other horsemen are limited to 1/4 of the earth. Sorry, but the Beast of chapter 13 has no such limitations. 

The Beast is not even revealed until chapter 13, making your theory way off. Like 2000 years off.

John used "white" 17 times in Revelation: the other 16 times to represent righteousness. Your theory would have God make one use of white for evil. 

The list could go on and on, but your mind is made up. Your theory is just wrong. 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Do you doubt if the word of God is truth? Or do you wish to know how someone could be put to death and still not a hair of their head perish?

No and No.  

 

 

27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

..that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Yes, I completely agree.  

 

 

40 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What are "these things?" We have to go back to what he just wrote:

What are "these things"?  Too far for me. 

 I have put forth Gods Word.  Anything past this would just be thoughts of my own and word games, and the only thing that matters is the Glory of God and the Word.  

Some read the Word, they understood the words written, but the spiritual message and/or the Truth  doesn't get through.  Our conversations have completely stagnated and are headed no where productive for God so we must end them.  I tried once before and didn't succeed.  I hope for a better result.  It would really help if you would do the same.  Starting....now.  



 

 

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

No and No.  

Yes, I completely agree.

 
What are "these things"?  Too far for me. 

 I have put forth Gods Word.  Anything past this would just be thoughts of my own and word games, and the only thing that matters is the Glory of God and the Word.  

Some read the Word, they understood the words written, but the spiritual message and/or the Truth  doesn't get through.  Our conversations have completely stagnated and are headed no where productive for God so we must end them.  I tried once before and didn't succeed.  I hope for a better result.  It would really help if you would do the same.  Starting....now.  

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I have put forth Gods Word. 

If you stopped with just His word, you would be fine. But what you do is put YOUR SPIN on His word.  For example, "AS IF by us" means "by us." As if this letter supposedly or alleged to be from Paul telling them THE DAY had already come was Paul's first letter! Sorry, but you missed it there. If you still think the rapture is posttrib, you are still missing it there too.

Question: how are you going to get to the marriage and supper that God tells us will take place in heaven  just before Armageddon? 

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Some read the Word, they understood the words written, but the spiritual message and/or the Truth  doesn't get through.  Our conversations have completely stagnated and are headed no where productive for God so we must end them.  I tried once before and didn't succeed.  I hope for a better result.  It would really help if you would do the same.  Starting....now.

Where you miss it: Your position here is that you are right and anyone that disagrees is wrong. The truth is, you have this backwards: a posttrib rapture is simply impossible when the word of God is taken literally and understood. You never will succeed in teaching me error. 
 

Does a bank president teach all the tellers what various counterfeit $100 bills may look like? No, he teaches them everything they need to know about what a REAL US $100 bill looks like. When they know the REAL, they can easily spot a counterfeit.  My point is, I can spot a counterfeit. A posttrib rapture is a counterfeit that comes from misunderstanding several passages. For years posttribbers have been asked: HOW are you going to get to heaven for the marriage? Not one has been able to answer. Usually they say "no problem!" They just rearrange Revelation to fit their theory and then state: "the marriage will be on earth."  Yet, they usually accuse pretribbers of "twisting" scripture. 

Some things to consider: God gave Israel as a nation every chance to accept Him as their Messiah. They refuses so then God turned to the Gentiles. The truth is, GOD LEFT THAT DECISION OPEN until they refused over several years. People look for the rapture in the Olivet discourse when Jesus was talking to the Jews about the end of THEIR age. Don't take my word for this: there is absolute PROOF: is the abomination that will divide the week about the time of Jacob's trouble or the 70th week? You KNOW it is. And Jesus mentioned that and the days of GT that will follow, starting in Matthew 24:15. This is PROOF Jesus was talking to the Jews about THEIR end, not the Gentile church of today. If you go back to Daniel 9, you can read that all 70 weeks are for DANIEL's people.

Question: are you a Jew? Is your mother a Jew? If so, then Matthew 24 is about the end of YOUR age. If you are a Gentile, look to Paul about the end of the Gentile church age or the age of Grace.  Why do posttribbers ignore Luke 21:36? God has made a way of escape, but posttribbers seem not to WANT God's escape plan. They want to set their OWN appointments. 

Ann, can you tell me something honestly? Since you believe in your heart that you will see other things before you see Jesus coming; if Jesus came tonight, would that catch you by surprise? Would you be LOOKING for Him - EXPECTING Him?

 ²⁸ so also^[ak] Christ, having been offered once so as to bear^[al] the sins of many, will appear for a second time without reference to sin to the ones eagerly-awaiting Him, for salvation. (DLNT)

 

 ²⁸ so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but^[f] to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. (HCSB)

 

²⁸ So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.  (KJV)

Are you truly in your heart LOOKING for His coming - like TONIGHT?

[WilliamL]

On 6/6/2020 at 4:23 PM, The Light said:

On 6/4/2020 at 1:20 PM, WilliamL said:

There is absolutely no biblical testimony that says what you say. It is all your presumption.

Actually there is plenty of Biblical scriptural support in what I say, as I like to deal in facts. Anytime that you would like to present some scriptural evidence that proves that I am incorrect, I will be happy to address it.

Original post:

On 6/1/2020 at 4:31 PM, The Light said:

On 6/1/2020 at 2:20 PM, WilliamL said:

His name is Azazel, the angelic king of the Abyss, who will ascend when the Abyss is opened at the 5th Trumpet.

There are no humans in the Abyss, which was made for the rebellious fallen angels who were cast down at the time of Noah's flood. Jude 6; 2 Peter 2:4; Book of Enoch

Don't think so. The beast is around when the abomination of desolation is set up. That's way before the 5th trumpet when the abyss is opened.

It is your responsibility to prove by the Scriptures what you claim; not my responsibility to prove a negative.

There is not a single verse that mentions the Beast of Revelation 13 ascending from the Abyss (or ANYONE ascending from the Abyss) before the time of the 5th Seal. If you can prove otherwise, show the evidence.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Original post:

It is your responsibility to prove by the Scriptures what you claim; not my responsibility to prove a negative.

There is not a single verse that mentions the Beast of Revelation 13 ascending from the Abyss (or ANYONE ascending from the Abyss) before the time of the 5th Seal. If you can prove otherwise, show the evidence.

I'm thinking you mean 5th trumpet.

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by The Light