I was wrong

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I would say that if I saw the Russian Federation attacking Israel then I would know that I had not gone in the rapture. That is as Joel says, the Day of the Lord. (Joel 2)

 

Where do you get Russian Federation from in scripture? 

[Marilyn C]

20 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

Where do you get Russian Federation from in scripture? 

Ez.38.

[wingnut-]

30 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Ez.38.

 

What leads you to arrive in Russia from this?

[Marilyn C]

31 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

What leads you to arrive in Russia from this?

Hi wingnut,

I`m now on my computer and not my phone so can write more. Thanks for asking.

THE GREAT ARMY

God tells us that a great company of people will gather at the north of Israel preparing for war. God says to the Prince of Rosh -

 

` I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords.` (Ez. 38: 4)

 

The Commander in Chief - Rosh, Russia (`with all your army` v. 4)

 

The Commonwealth of Independent States.

21 republics. Former republics of the U.S.S.R. which have become Sovereign states in full cooperation with Russia. (` a great company,` v.4)

 

 

The Slavic Nations.

Once behind the `iron Curtain` have gained independence but retained the same philosophy and ambitions.

(Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Belarus, also Turkey, (`Gomer ....and the house of Togarmah....many people with you.` v.6)

 

Three Separate Nations - Iran, (Ancient Persia) Libya, and Ethiopia.

 

 

Russia will be the `Commander-in-Chief` to the others and will lead them forth to battle.

 

`Prepare yourself (Rosh) & be ready, you and all your companies that are gathered about you; be a guard for them.` (Ez. 38: 7)

 

Together they make ` an evil plan` to go up against ` a land of unwalled villages,` against those on the outskirts of Israel. Why? `To take plunder ...and booty,..`.  (Ez. 38: 10 - 12)

 

[wingnut-]

46 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

I`m now on my computer and not my phone so can write more. Thanks for asking.

 

No problem, thanks for indulging my curiosity.  If I am understanding you correctly, this idea is based on your belief that Rosh = Russia?  If that is the case I wanted to offer you this for consideration, and am certainly willing to discuss the geography as I understand it.

 

Rosh

Hebrew: ראש rosh "Head"

Rosh is the seventh of the ten sons of Benjamin named in Genesis 46:21.

A nation named Rosh is also possibly mentioned in Ezekiel 38:2–3, 39:1 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog, the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal; and prophesy concerning him." This translation "Rosh" is found in NASB but not in KJV and most modern versions. Also in a variant reading of Isaiah 66:19 (MT) and the Septuagint Jeremiah 32:23. Most scholars see this as a mistranslation of נְשִׂ֕יא רֹ֖אשׁ, nesi ro’š ("chief prince"), rather than a toponym.

 

Most versions read like this below, which according to the majority of scholars and translators over the millennia is the proper reading.

 

Ezekiel 38: 3 and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.

[Marilyn C]

32 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

No problem, thanks for indulging my curiosity.  If I am understanding you correctly, this idea is based on your belief that Rosh = Russia?  If that is the case I wanted to offer you this for consideration, and am certainly willing to discuss the geography as I understand it.

 

Rosh

Hebrew: ראש rosh "Head"

Rosh is the seventh of the ten sons of Benjamin named in Genesis 46:21.

A nation named Rosh is also possibly mentioned in Ezekiel 38:2–3, 39:1 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog, the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal; and prophesy concerning him." This translation "Rosh" is found in NASB but not in KJV and most modern versions. Also in a variant reading of Isaiah 66:19 (MT) and the Septuagint Jeremiah 32:23. Most scholars see this as a mistranslation of נְשִׂ֕יא רֹ֖אשׁ, nesi ro’š ("chief prince"), rather than a toponym.

 

Most versions read like this below, which according to the majority of scholars and translators over the millennia is the proper reading.

 

Ezekiel 38: 3 and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.

Also Joel 2 where it says that the great army is from the far north. (Ez. 38: 15) That is the northern most part of the earth - Russia.

Also did you know that Russia had 2 military bases, one airport and one sea port in Syria, just over the border from Israel. And now they want to expand all of those.

Watch that space!

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Also Joel 2 where it says that the great army is from the far north. (Ez. 38: 15) That is the northern most part of the earth - Russia.

 

Yes, but Joel and all the other prophets were speaking in terms of their time, and the names they list can be traced to specific places geographically.  Meshech and Tubal were located in modern day Turkey, which biblically speaking is the area known as Asia Minor, which of course has great significance in prophecy.  To further illustrate why we should approach the geography not from our modern day perspective, but from the prophets perspective take the following passage from Ezekiel 38 as an example.

 

Ezekiel 38: 6 Gomer and all his hordes; Beth-togarmah from the uttermost parts of the north with all his hordes—many peoples are with you.

 

Now, we see here that Ezekiel refers to Gomer and beth-togarmah as the uttermost parts of the north.  So first, we have to understand the geography from the bible, so look at the table of nations from Genesis and I will highlight some very important aspects.

 

Genesis 10  These are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Sons were born to them after the flood.

2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples spread in their lands, each with his own language, by their clans, in their nations.

 

From Genesis 10 we can gather that all of these individuals in question here descend from the line of Japheth.  Magog is also a descendant of Japheth, as you can see in verse 2.  Togarmah is the youngest son of Gomer.  Verse 5 tells us that they are coastland peoples, which is very important when you account for all of Ezekiel's prophecies in regards to them, not just chapter 38.

The name beth-togarmah needs to be clarified, in that the prefix of beth means house, so the proper understanding is literally, the house of togarmah, clearly identifying the descendants of Gomer's youngest son, Togarmah as the people in question from Ezekiel that he refers to as "the uttermost parts of the north".  This is the modern day region in which beth-togarmah existed.

 

Anatolia

Togarmah is among the descendants of Japheth and is thought to represent some people located in Anatolia. Medieval traditions variously claimed Togarmah as the mythical ancestor of peoples in the Caucasus and western Asia, including the Georgians, the Armenians and some Turkic peoples (i.e. Oghuzes, Khazars).

 

You can google Anatolia and see the area begins in the southeastern part of Greece and the northwestern region of modern day Turkey, all along the coastline of where the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea meet.  According to Ezekiel, modern day Turkey is the uttermost parts of the north, not Russia.  Now some of the peoples mentioned do reach inland to the southernmost area of what would be considered today as Russia, but certainly nowhere near the seat of power for that nation.  The vast majority of every people included in Ezekiel 38 are found in Turkey, or what John referred to as Asia Minor.  The areas they occupied happen to coincide with the region that the Medes come from, which aligns with Daniel's prophecies regarding the end times.

To expand on the importance of these groups being referred to as coastland people, refer to Ezekiel's mention of them in other places, here is an excerpt from chapter 27 in regards to Tyre.

 

Ezekiel 27:3 and say to Tyre, who dwells at the entrances to the sea, merchant of the peoples to many coastlands, thus says the Lord God:

 

Ezekiel 27:12 “Tarshish did business with you because of your great wealth of every kind; silver, iron, tin, and lead they exchanged for your wares. 13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech traded with you; they exchanged human beings and vessels of bronze for your merchandise. 14 From Beth-togarmah they exchanged horses, war horses, and mules for your wares. 15 The men of Dedan traded with you. Many coastlands were your own special markets; they brought you in payment ivory tusks and ebony.

 

From Ezekiel 27 in total, you can see that all the nations or peoples mentioned are specific to the area known as the middle east, and only touches the southernmost region of Russia.  If you refer back to the table of nations from Genesis 10, you can also see that the majority of peoples mentioned are directly linked to the genealogy of Japheth, including Tyre.  Most importantly though, Ezekiel says plainly that the descendants of Japheth are coastland people, and that really doesn't describe Russia at all.

 

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Yes, but Joel and all the other prophets were speaking in terms of their time, and the names they list can be traced to specific places geographically.  Meshech and Tubal were located in modern day Turkey, which biblically speaking is the area known as Asia Minor, which of course has great significance in prophecy.  To further illustrate why we should approach the geography not from our modern day perspective, but from the prophets perspective take the following passage from Ezekiel 38 as an example.

 

Thanks for the reminder of where those people went. How as regards to Ezekiel and Joel it is the Holy Spirit who wrote those books, (through the men) and the Holy Spirit knows full well where some of those people eventually went and settled - uttermost parts of the earth, the far north. (Ez. 38: 6 & 15) (Russia)

[Buddy D. Mouse]

I don't know that there will be an EVENT that will make current pre-tribbers drop that doctrine.

I dropped it from a REALIZATION that the pre-trib approach to Daniel's 70 weeks involved something I could no longer swallow - a GAP between 69th and 70th week, all this jazz about "the prophetic clock stopped, blah blah blah"

I realized that other lengths of time foretold in the Bible, such as Israelites in Egypt, and Jeremiah' s 70 years - they ran CONCURRENTLY from beginning to end.

I saw that the 70 weeks, 490 years - ran CONCURRENTLY to the stoning of Stephen. It's OVER, long over.

A 42 month period in Revelation may come, sure, and can be seen as part of the dual/multiple fulfillment of prophecy, like Abomination of Desolation in Antiochus Epiphanes time, and again in 70 AD - but to me there is no "7 year trib" to come, so I am a non-tribber

And I would consider it "reverse date-setting" to say "the world cannot end for at least 7 years"

I don't know how many people are still pre-trib, or why

I grew up in Methodist church in a vacuum of eschatology, in college, LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH came out and I swallowed it - was PreTrib til I finally realized:

There is no biblical precept for saying God decrees a certain length of time for a certain purpose but one can say "Kings X" - prophetic clock stopped! All of Dispensational pretrib stands or fall s on this GAP - . and to me it falls

 

An EVENT - like a peace treaty - nah, there are peace treaties all the time

A stone temple rebuilt - how would one know that that was not simply OF MAN?

Non-Christian Zionists could conceivably build a temple - they want to...

PreTrib has PAT ANSWERS for things "oh, that's trib-saints! That's Millennium people!"

But it all hangs on sumpn what ain't - a future 70th week of Daniel that has, in reality, come and gone

[Buddy D. Mouse]

Chasing down Russia as Gog of Magog, looking for red heifers, 666 and newspaper eschatology, it's all Brown around the edges to me.

Originally, Gog was a leader - Magog the people he led, but when it appears in Revelation - it's "Gog and Magog" as nations - hey, that's ok - book of Revelation alludes to many OT things but doesn't portray them in the EXACT FORM OT had them - Zechariah's horses may be a base, but are not exactly like 4 horsemen of apocalypse - Ezekiel has beings that seem to reappear in Revelation but number of wings different slightly...

No EVENT is going to eradicate PreTrib as a doctrine

No aspersions on its origins will wipe it out, demonizing Margaret Macdonald or Manual DeLacunza - folks, they didn't teach PreTrib at all, Darby didn't "get it from them"

I feel Pre-Tribbers should ask themselves - "Is this really kosher - putting 2000 year GAP in 70 weeks?"