How old you might think the Earth is?

[BeauJangles]

5 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

According to the Bible they can approximately guess. It is not millions of years old. 

Some scientific biblical scholars consider the pre-adamic creation of earth to be in an earlier dispensation of yet another undetermined time period of years. Approximations are unknown. 

[teddyv]

26 minutes ago, LonerAndy said:

Two reasons.  There is no better tool, and it fits with what they want to believe.

I've been only one project that we utilized radiometric dating. It was to estimate the timing of mineralization of a copper deposit. The dating was Re-Os method. Nearby intrusives had been dated by both K-Ar and U-Pb methods. The mineralization date was within the window that the dating of the older and younger intrusives. Now that is only one example. There have been countless examples of this being played out all over the world.

What you propose is close to making the whole process a grand conspiracy theory.

[BeauJangles]

3 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

It might be very old.  It was a globe to begin with but went flat with age. 

This is correct. The world was created flat so that we don't fall off.

But we also don't want to get too close to the edge. If we do this will happen. 

 

[missmuffet]

9 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Some scientific biblical scholars consider the pre-adamic creation of earth to be in an earlier dispensation of yet another undetermined time period of years. Approximations are unknown. 

The age of the earth is not an important topic for me. God knows we really do not. 

[BeauJangles]

26 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

When I was 3 and going under general anesthesia, eather, I think remember walking on the surface of the sun, and think it was just a moment after God created it. 

From an article I posted not too long ago. Here is the closest telescopic photo of our solar surface. 

[LonerAndy]

8 hours ago, teddyv said:

I've been only one project that we utilized radiometric dating. It was to estimate the timing of mineralization of a copper deposit. The dating was Re-Os method. Nearby intrusives had been dated by both K-Ar and U-Pb methods. The mineralization date was within the window that the dating of the older and younger intrusives. Now that is only one example. There have been countless examples of this being played out all over the world.

What you propose is close to making the whole process a grand conspiracy theory.

Just for the sake of anyone who does not know what we are talking about, radiometric dating involves look at a given element that has a known decay rate, and what it decays into, and then making a calculation based on that.

So pretend you have piles of wood, and you know that the wood turns into dirt, at a half life of 10 years.  You see 5 piles of wood, and 5 piles of dirt.   You could then calculate that the 5 piles of dirt, where original wood, and it's been 10 years since those piles were placed there, because half are gone, and the half life is 10 years.

A specific element of Rhenium decays into Osmium over a period of time.   If you look at how much Rhenium there is, and how much Osmium there is, and if you know the half life of Rhenium, you can make a calculation on how old the rock is.

Here's the problem with all radiometric dating.  Do you know with absolute certainty, how much Osmium there was when the rock was formed?   No.  Of course not.  You would have had to have been there 6 thousand years ago, or 45 Billion years ago, and measured the amount of Osmium there was in the rock.

But there are other problems as well, such as we don't actually know what the decay rate, or half life is of Rhenium.

There are roughly 3 ways to determine the half life.

1. Measure the decay by detecting the radioactivity
2. Measure what it decays into.
3. Compare it to something else.

All three of these are flawed.

1.  Rhenium has one of the lowest levels of energy output, of any radioactive decay.  So low, that it is difficult to detect, let alone make a concise calculation of.  Additionally, some of the energy released in the decay is captured by the Rhenium itself, throwing off the calculations.  There have been 5 different attempts to determine Rheniums half life, using this method, and all of them had contradictory results.

2.  Measuring the amount of Osmium from the decay is equally difficult, if not impossible.   The amount of Osmium produced by the decay of Rhenium is so tiny, that the smallest margin of error, could through off the calculation by 100 billion years.  The longest test of Osmium decay was only 5 years.   That may seem like a long time, but when you have decay rate in the 10s of billions, 5 years would hardly produce a detectable amount.

3.  This leaves the 3rd, and most used, and in my opinion least scientific method, which is comparison. 

To put it bluntly, they compare Uranium Lead decay to Rhenium Osmium, and then calibrate one to the other.

This obviously assumes that U-Pb is accurate, which again, unless you were there and tested how much lead was in the rock, when it formed, then you simply have to assume that there was none.

But then to use one to validate the other, is not science.  What they are doing is look at one rock, and saying according to our U-Pb calculation, this is X years old.  Now there is so much Re-Os, so therefore we must make the Re-Os calculation fit with the U-Pb calculation.

That's not science.  That's circular logic.

Moreover, using this method assumes that the decay rate of Uranium, is perfectly known and constant.  Yet there is evidence that this isn't necessarily true either.

Begemann, F., K. R. Ludwig, G. W. Lugmair, K. Min, L. E. Nyquist, P. J. Patchett, P. R. Renne, C.-Y. Shih, I. M. Villa, and R. J. Walker. 2001. Call for an improved set of decay constants for geochronological use. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 65, no. 1:111–121.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0016703700005123

Begemann discovered that decay rates have been observed to change based on environmental conditions. Which leads to the logical question, is it not possible that all supposed constant decay rates, are subject to change based on environment conditions?

As a Christian, we know that prior to the fall of man, there was no sin in this world, and the world was perfect.   Perhaps during this time of unknown length, that there was no radioactive decay at all.   Additionally, we know there was a band of water that was above the Earth, and that after the flood, this water fell in the form of rain.   Perhaps between the Garden of Eden and the great flood, there was no cosmic rays and rays from the sun, that affected radioactive decay.

But all of these radioactive dating methods, all assume that what we measure today, in this moment of time, was true throughout all history.   They have to assume that, or there is no way to date anything.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/10/2020 at 6:51 AM, luigi said:

I believe in guided-by-the-Lord evolution. You have to read the mounds of literature to understand what I mean. In short, however, even geneticists are well aware that Darwinian evolution as it stands is a farce, and they are hoping someone can come up with a credible theory to explain all the problems they have with the Darwinian model.

Shabbat shalom, luigi.

I don't believe in evolution of any sort. Darwinian evolution, in particular, is indeed a farce. God has given His own designs to each genus or species of creature (created being) in this world. It should come as no surprise that He has used models that work in multiple cases. For instance, it is common to have five digits in the paws of multiple creatures as well as five digits on the hand of a human being. They don't show "common ancestry"; they show "common design." They show a "common Designer," who is ANYTHING BUT "common!"

Genesis 1 and 2 are still the best solution to what Darwin questioned in his Origin of the Species. And, Genesis 1 and 2 are still best understood to contain "yamiym" (the plural of the Hebrew word "yowm") that constituted the first true week of seven 24-hour days. How can one say that something is "like a day" unless one first HAS a "day?!" No, these did not represent "long periods of time." They were literally SIX 24-hour days of creation and another 24-hour day of Rest ("Shabbat").

Remember what YHWH GOD HIMSELF said!

Exodus 20:1-11 (KJV)

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 "I am the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Exodus 31:12-17 (KJV)

12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 

13 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying,

'Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.'"

Look. Evolution as it is taught is PEPPERED AND PUNCTUATED with death, most often described as "survival of the fittest," implying that other creatures DID NOT "survive" but rather DIED because they were "unfit!" Doesn't that bother you as a believer?! Does God really make INFERIOR creatures that are "unfit" for their environment?!

God doesn't create "death" and call it "very good!" That's not the "God" I know! No, death was sentenced upon the man and the woman and all of nature BECAUSE of their disobedience to God's command! And, this did not happen until some time AFTER the man and the woman were placed in Gan-`Eden, the Garden of Eden, upon the sixth day of Creation! One cannot just put the cart before the horse and say that death had already been happening for millions of years! 

[Retrobyter]

On 6/13/2020 at 2:36 PM, BeauJangles said:

From an article I posted not too long ago. Here is the closest telescopic photo of our solar surface. 

Shalom, BeauJangles.

I think this might prove even more interesting as an animated film rather than a still image. I believe that each one of these unusually shaped "facets" are actually millions of nuclear explosions occurring all over the surface of the sun at or near the same time. It probably looks like never-ending popcorn bubbling up all over the place!

Just another thought: They probably had to filter most of the brilliance out of the picture to see this much detail!

Edited June 14, 2020 by Retrobyter

[BeauJangles]

6 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BeauJangles.

I think this might prove even more interesting as an animated film rather than a still image. I believe that each one of these unusually shaped "facets" are actually millions of nuclear explosions occurring all over the surface of the sun at or near the same time. It probably looks like never-ending popcorn bubbling up all over the place!

I do have some solar videos posted in the appropriate section reserved for them. Someone mentioned this telescopic image appeared much like a bowl of tanned Rice Crispys! 

[luigi]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, luigi.

I don't believe in evolution of any sort. Darwinian evolution, in particular, is indeed a farce. God has given His own designs to each genus or species of creature (created being) in this world. It should come as no surprise that He has used models that work in multiple cases. For instance, it is common to have five digits in the paws of multiple creatures as well as five digits on the hand of a human being. They don't show "common ancestry"; they show "common design." They show a "common Designer," who is ANYTHING BUT "common!"

Genesis 1 and 2 are still the best solution to what Darwin questioned in his Origin of the Species. And, Genesis 1 and 2 are still best understood to contain "yamiym" (the plural of the Hebrew word "yowm") that constituted the first true week of seven 24-hour days. How can one say that something is "like a day" unless one first HAS a "day?!" No, these did not represent "long periods of time." They were literally SIX 24-hour days of creation and another 24-hour day of Rest ("Shabbat").

Remember what YHWH GOD HIMSELF said!

Exodus 20:1-11 (KJV)

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 "I am the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Exodus 31:12-17 (KJV)

12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 

13 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying,

'Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.'"

Look. Evolution as it is taught is PEPPERED AND PUNCTUATED with death, most often described as "survival of the fittest," implying that other creatures DID NOT "survive" but rather DIED because they were "unfit!" Doesn't that bother you as a believer?! Does God really make INFERIOR creatures that are "unfit" for their environment?!

God doesn't create "death" and call it "very good!" That's not the "God" I know! No, death was sentenced upon the man and the woman and all of nature BECAUSE of their disobedience to God's command! And, this did not happen until some time AFTER the man and the woman were placed in Gan-`Eden, the Garden of Eden, upon the sixth day of Creation! One cannot just put the cart before the horse and say that death had already been happening for millions of years! 

Peace and good day Retrobyter,

If the Lord created all in six 24 hour periods and then rested on the seventh day from all His work; then how is it that it is the Lord by Himself who currently is stretching the heavens in Isaiah 44:24? Is our current expanding universe not the Lord stretching and creating the heavens? If the Lord is the Potter and man is the clay that the Potter forms as He wishes (Isaiah 64:8); is not the Lord then in the process of creating man? When in Zephaniah 3:17 the Lord says He will rest in His people, could this possibly be the seventh day rest, that the Lord declared from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), as is also seen in Hebrews 4:3-4?

Zephaniah 3:17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Isaiah 44:24  Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 64:8  But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.