divorce and remarriage cancer worse than corona

[vic66]

Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up 

If you look behind the false facade of the modern church, you will see what the Bible really teaches, and what the historic church really believed on the permanence of marriage. The difference between what was then and what is now is so vast that you cannot have a foot in both camps. 
Either the whole early Christian church was right, and the present leaders wrong, or the whole early Christian church was wrong, and the present leaders right, not both. You can't have both! There is no safe point in between and you cannot have it both ways. The subject is too central to the heart of Christianity for it not to be a heaven and hell issue. The Scriptures and the early church were absolutely adamant about that, too. Ignatius Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John the beloved, and a leader of the church at the turn of the first century. When he wrote, there were people who were still living that had sat at Jesus' feet. Let his words guide you as to how important a subject this is to him and to those he learned it from: 
Ignatius wrote (c. 100 A.D.): 
”Do not be in error, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such a one becoming defiled in this way shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.”  Integrity 
The first Christians took their directions from elders in the church, the Holy Spirit and the written teachings of the apostles as circulated and exchanged between regions. The accumulated teachings have yielded a number of primary principles which can be collectively and succinctly expressed in simple statements. The combined witness of Scripture and the early church leaders are overwhelmingly compelling on each of these statements. Standing behind these leaders are a wealth of endorsements within many of the over 30,000 early Christians’ surviving codices, manuscripts and letters:    
1. Marriage is an institution designed and administered by God for a lifelong union in Holy Matrimony of one man and one woman.
7
Matthew 19:4-6  "And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?  So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” 
Augustine wrote (c. 419 A.D.): 
"This we now say, that, according to this condition of being born and dying, which we know, and in which we have been created, the marriage of male and female is good, the compact whereof divine Scripture so commends, as that neither is it allowed one put away by her husband to marry, so long as her husband is living; nor is it allowed one put away by his wife to marry another, unless she who have separated from him be dead." 2. God hates divorce and never sanctions it for invalidation of a covenant marriage. A covenant marriage is a union where God has joined a man who does not have another living pre-existent wife, to a woman that does not have another living pre- existent husband into what the Bible calls a one-flesh relationship. Malachi 2:15b-16 …and let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. “For the LORD God of Israel says that He hates divorce, for it covers one’s garment with violence,” says the LORD of hosts. “Therefore take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.” Mark 10:7-9 “‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” Clement of Alexandria wrote (c. 208 A.D.): "That scripture counsels marriage, however, and never allows any release from the union, is expressly contained in the law: “You shall not divorce a wife, except for reason of fornication.” And it regards as adultery the marriage of a spouse, while the one from whom a separation was made is still living." Ambrose of Milan wrote (c. 387 A.D.): 
"You dismiss your wife, therefore, as if by right and without being charged with wrongdoing; and you suppose it is proper for you to do so because no human law forbids it; but divine law forbids it. Anyone who obeys men should stand in awe of God. Hear the Word of the Lord, which even they who propose our laws must obey: “What God has joined together, let no man put asund

Source:HOSEA FELLOWSHIP 

[Exegesis]

On 7/13/2020 at 2:18 PM, vic66 said:

 

GENESIS 2:21-24
21 And Yahweh God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place:
22 And the rib, which Yahweh God had taken from man, he made a woman, and brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cling to his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

MATTHEW 19:3-9
3 The Pharisees also came to him, tempting him, and saying to him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said to them, Have you not read, that he who made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cling to his wife: and they two shall be one flesh?
6 Therefore they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, do not let man separate¹.
7 They say to him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement?
8 He says unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her who is put away commits adultery.

 

Mark 10 King James Version (KJV)

10 And he arose from thence, and cometh into the coasts of Judaea by the farther side of Jordan: and the people resort unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again.

² And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

³ And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

⁴ And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

⁵ And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

⁶ But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

⁷ For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

⁸ And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

⁹ What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

¹⁰ And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.

¹¹ And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

¹² And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:18 
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery." 

1 Corinthians 7:39 kjv
The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

Roman 7

² For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

³ So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

 

Mal

14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

 

 

 

That was a fail.

I asked for textual proof that what you are trying to sell passes biblical scrutiny.   Your response failed.

Show me biblical proof that divorce and re-marriage is an unforgivable sin.

[vic66]

18 hours ago, Exegesis said:

That was a fail.

I asked for textual proof that what you are trying to sell passes biblical scrutiny.   Your response failed.

Show me biblical proof that divorce and re-marriage is an unforgivable sin.

if you break of the sin of remarriage while you first covenanted marriage spouse is still alive there is forgiveness.

but if you remarried in second marriage  while first married spouse is alive then your sin remains (no forgiveness)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

² God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

³ Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

⁴ Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

⁵ For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

⁶ Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

⁷ For he that is dead is freed from sin.

⁸ Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

⁹ Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

¹⁰ For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

¹¹ Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

¹² Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

¹³ Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

¹⁴ For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

¹⁵ What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

¹⁶ Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

¹⁷ But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

¹⁸ Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

¹⁹ I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

²⁰ For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

²¹ What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

²² But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

²³ For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by vic66

[Gideon]

5 hours ago, vic66 said:

if you break of the sin of remarriage while you first covenanted marriage spouse is still alive there is forgiveness.

but if you remarried in second marriage  while first married spouse is alive then your sin remains (no forgiveness)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

² God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

³ Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

⁴ Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

⁵ For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

⁶ Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

⁷ For he that is dead is freed from sin.

⁸ Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

⁹ Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

¹⁰ For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

¹¹ Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

¹² Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

¹³ Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

¹⁴ For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

¹⁵ What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

¹⁶ Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

¹⁷ But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

¹⁸ Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

¹⁹ I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

²⁰ For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

²¹ What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

²² But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

²³ For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

For those who know me, Iin no way am advocating for sin. But your solution does not get to the root of the problem. It would cause untold pain to children of second marriages and ahipwreck what little faith people now are clinging to. It would be a tornado crushing and extinguishing  the small flickering ember of light that remains in the body as we know it now. 

What is the solution? Get to the root of the cause. Self love, never dealt with, must die and it is done in but one way.... escaping the old nature. Until this is done, your solution is simply a legalistic appeasement that would not please God at all. The solution to a tree producing bad fruit is not to sit there with a Bible baseball bat that whacks every fruit that does not measure up to the "standard". That is how attempting to adhere to the law does things. And.... it simply does not work. Hearts are still impure. 

The real solution is laying the axe to the root of the bad tree. The bad tree..... our old nature..... must die and praise God, Jesus made a way for each one of us to rid ourselves of self's demands. Having our old man die when Christ died is wonderful accomplished fact, indeed, but.... BUT..... it does not profit us until we, by faith, grab hold of that truth and appropriate it as ours.... a done deal. 

Why do people resist such a simple solution? Many simply do not see their old nature as a bad thing. They think "Well, yes, I am not perfect, but I am a good person and after all, I am only human. At least I am not as bad as _______________?" They are wrong. 

Jesus said we could not be His disciples until we finally came to HATE our old man. It is a supplanter. A rebel. A self-loving person who obeys when it is convenient and disobeys when it feels like it. It CANNOT love God with all its heart, for it loves itself more. It cannot love others as it loves itself for it loves itself more. And it must die. 

When we finally break before God, look at our divorce statistics in the church, our porn issues, our materialism issues, our worldliness issues, our contentment without godliness, our lukewarm going-through-the-motions churchianity,  our excuses for allowing sin to remain in our daily lives,  and our hearts finally break before God, and draw near to Him to truly be changed into new creatures, He will not fail to plant faith into the heart of every child who seeks Him, who desires His will to rule over them. 

When the Spirit is again outpoured on a broken and humbled church, divorce will simply no longer be an issue. Neither will porn or any of the other sins currently afflicting the healed-only-slightly  church. 

Huge changes are coming. The hearts of God's children are about ro be brought to their knees. But when that finally happens, the outpouring of the book of Acts will have nothibg on us.... nothing. 

blessings to you, Vic

Gids

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Gideon

[BeauJangles]

4 hours ago, vic66 said:

but if you remarried in second marriage  while first married spouse is alive then your sin remains (no forgiveness)

Hi vic66,

I see you're still posting this doctrinal erroneous tripe. I supposed expecting an enlightening one with an element of truth is yet beyond your grasp. That kinda makes my heart sink for you. What a dismal thought to dwell on. Oh well. I guess getting over it will be my only recourse. By the way, do you still hold on to that other error of saying the Apostle Paul teaches pastors, bishops, elders, deacons, and anyone else in leadership of church being the body of Christ should only be married one time in their entire life? Or have you taken stock of yourself as a result and changed your mind on all that other associated nonsense? 

Just curious, 

The BeauMeister

[Exegesis]

16 hours ago, vic66 said:

if you break of the sin of remarriage while you first covenanted marriage spouse is still alive there is forgiveness.

but if you remarried in second marriage  while first married spouse is alive then your sin remains (no forgiveness)

Basic English does not seem to be your long suite.  Your sentences above make no sense in their present form.

The guilty party is the one who instigates the divorce, in your flawed scenario.  That is biblical fact.  It is also biblical fact that according to the OT law, divorce had no terms for fault.  So you are also saying Jesus changed the law, which we know He did not.  You also evidently don't know that the New Testament was not originally written in English.  It was written in Greek.  In Matthew 1:19-21, Matthew 5:31-32, Mathew 19:7-9, Mark 10:11-12, and Luke 16:16-18 most of the words translated in later translations  as "divorce" are not the Greek word for divorce.  They are the Greek word for "putting away" which means a man getting rid of his wife without giving her a certificate of divorce.  That is what Jesus was condemning and calling adultery, not divorce itself.  A person marrying an un-divorced woman was committing adultery.  Pretty simple concept.

[Fidei Defensor]

32 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Not only did Jesus and Paul state what you've quoted but the position taken by HCM-NZ 1) fails in understanding the fundamental nature of a covenant and 2) creates a situation in which there may be no redemption. This happens when the letter of the commands is adhered to in neglects of the governing principle upon which the letter is built. Letter over principle. It is a form of legalism. There two features that are likely to unfold as the discussion of this op expands: the defining of the discussion in the negative, and the neglect of the very real fact God Himself divorced the covenant-breaking Israel (Jer. 3:8). 

A covenant is a two-way contract. It requires both parties to adhere to the stated and agreed upon conditions. Sadly, this is one of the chief reasons divorce happens = people have not read and therefore do not know and understand what it is they are pledging. Yes, they are alive and conscious when standing on the stage saying their vows but very few individuals are paying any attention or have much understanding. I do marital counseling and one of the first questions I ask is "What is it you are promising each other?" I have yet to have a couple be able to answer that question so I send them to the priest/minister/pastor to have their vows read long before the wedding. One of their first assignments is to bring those vows to me so they can be discussed. Don't go into marriage ignorant of what you've vowed. Couples who say "I do," in ignorance haven't truly formed a marriage; the have not actually formed a covenant. They may have gone through the procedures - doing so by rote - but that is not a marriage, the joining of two people such that they become one with God in a unique valuing relationship (love is simply a term used for value). If no covenant was formed then no covenant can be broken. Not what Jesus said when he spoke of divorce: he said what God brought together should not be torn apart. He did not say what two fools bring together in their flesh should not be torn apart. The view that holds falsely taken vows as a covenant is a problem to be solved; it elevates the institution above the people. Shal we not say marriage was made for man and not man for marriage?

Defining Christian thought, doctrine, and practice solely upon the negative leads to bad thought, doctrine, and practice. Our understanding and application must be built upon the positive precepts, otherwise it is incomplete. The "Ten Commandments" are worded in the negative; they tell us what is prohibited. They would not be sufficient without the alternative affirmative or "positive standards." We are to have no other Gods and not worship idols stands side by side with the Shema, for example. We do our children a disservice if all we teach them is what not to do but never what to do. This is why it is important to remember and apply preeminent truths like God's sovereignty, grace, and redemption to the discussion on divorce. Creating a place where these do not and cannot apply is always bad thought, bad doctrine, and bad practice. There is no sin but that of blaspheming the Holy Spirit that is unforgiveable. That means forgiving covenant-breakers is a forgivable sin. This is, of course, best built on repentance (as the op alluded) but forgiveness is not dependent on repentance, otherwise we could not forgive those who wronged us in ignorance, those who do not know they have wronged another, those who die before reconciliation is attempted, and other circumstances. Once a covenant is broken it ceases to exist so  acting as if the individuals can just pick up where they left off isn't scriptural. They must renew the covenant. 

Lastly, Jesus said, "except" in cases of adultery so this is a singular condition. However, adultery is not defined solely by sex in the Bible. Israel was adulterous in many ways and labeled as such for all of them. Therefore sexual adultery is not the only warrant for divorce. Battery is a form of unfaithfulness or infidelity; it is adulterous. We don't find specific mention or discussion of marital assault and battery (for example)  in the Bible but it is a covenant-breaking act and I doubt any of us would recommend a spouse return to further harm. This failure to understand the nature of covenant-breaking in turn leads to a lack of understanding (and practice) in redemption because a Godly man can redeem the effects of sin in the life of another. This is the gospel. So any position wholly prohibiting all remarriage to a different spouse fails to apply the gospel to the situation. 

Principle over letter.

I stand with Christ and his apostle Paul, their words are clear. 

Jesus is not referring here to the adulterey (idolatry) of Israel and Jerusalem (Ezekiel 16). Jesus was asked specifically about Divorce. Lets not complicate the Scriptures were they are clear. 

[BeauJangles]

3 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I stand with Christ and his apostle Paul, their words are clear. 

Jesus is not referring here to the adulterey (idolatry) of Israel and Jerusalem (Ezekiel 16). Jesus was asked specifically about Divorce. Lets not complicate the Scriptures were they are clear. 

Thanks for this affirmative clarification of correct scriptural context. No need to muddy the water by over complexities of alternative indications that are clearly not shall we say, "on topic?" Yes, that's it. Good post there, bro. Well said, also. Why put more pancake mix into the already well explained batter of our Aunt Jemima? Do that and the griddle gets difficult to clean.  

[Fidei Defensor]

3 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

Thanks for this affirmative clarification of correct scriptural context. No need to muddy the water by over complexities of alternative indications that are clearly not shall we say, "on topic?" Yes, that's it. Good post there, bro. Well said, also. Why put more pancake mix into the already well explained batter of our Aunt Jemima? Do that and the griddle gets difficult to clean.  

I am Ao glad to be in concord: agreement on this. 

Well said brother.  

[BeauJangles]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The first marriage was the Godhead. 

I'm sorry. I do not, nor has anyone I've known having true theology expressed this. 

Marriage never existed prior to the creation of mankind.

Procreation of Nephilim was not marriage either.

Not even close. I can't begin to imagine it.