The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[The Light]

1 minute ago, Diaste said:

Gobbledygook 

LOL. That's what I thought.

[Diaste]

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

LOL. That's what I thought.

Pretrib can just never admit to no timing in all their citations of proof, all the while dismissing the actual proof of timing.

Crazy old world. 

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1.  Its lack of being mentioned after Revelation chapters 2 and 3.  "The [whole] Church" is not mentioned in those chapters either, only local congregations.
2.  We are not appointed to Gods Wrath   The Trib is not the Wrath: this is nowhere stated.
3   I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation  Spoken to the Philadelphia congregation only.
4   the word "day" is sometimes "days", and  "door" is mentioned "doors"  ??
5   The Word uses "return and cometh", and they mean different things   True, but sometimes are used interchangeably.
6  Gods trump is not the last trump  True, but only if by last trump you mean the 7th trump of Revelation.
7  Only Israel is blinded - it is Jacobs trouble   True, but this just means that now-unbelieving Israel will go through the Wrath, but have some protection during it.
8  Jews must suffer for rejecting Christ  True, Zech. 12:10 etc.
9  Jesus comes as a thief in the night - unexpectedly  and to those who believe they have secured their house but they haven't      True, but not for the faithful. 1 Thes. 5:4
10 The tribulation is not for the church  False: the Wrath is not for the Church, the Trib is for everyone.
11  Coming in the air is not coming all the way   True
12 Two harvests  True
13 Noe and Lot are different events  But the same principle.
14 He comes quickly, at an hour not known  Has nothing to do with whether pre-trib is true or not.
15  only saints to stand  True, at the time of the Parousia.
16  only saints to overcome the Overcomer  ??
17  only saints to endure to the end  True

 

[Marathoner]

I prefer to refrain from argumentation remembering the Lord's calling that I should serve and encourage others. This isn't to say that others are not called upon to do so because that was made evident after Christ spared me from myself and this world. I perceive the complex of error which results in the dizzying array of "rapture doctrines" and choose to hold fast to the knowledge of God's word which assures us that the Son of the living God will return as He ascended.

I agree with @DeighAnn: those passages from 1 Thessalonians do not in any way spell out an event which precedes His coming as the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings. Rather, they describe what will happen when Jesus Christ returns!

  

[The Light]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  You are so close, you only missed it by 3 verses.  GOD tells us THE TIME of this event.  Here it is

You might need to study the barley harvest and the wheat harvest before you make mention of who missed what.

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

And we know Christ is returning at the 2nd Advent for the Day of Vengeance when He returns as Lord of lord and King of kings.  

MOST CERTAINLY, if HE WERE speaking of "another day" it would have been mentioned as BEING AT A DIFFERENT TIME AND DAY .

But He didn't, so it isn't. 

You might rethink this logic, as 1st thes. 4 is not talking about the day of vengeance.

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

God is very specific.  The angels at the tomb tell us HE will descend as He ascended. 

Yes and he will. Which has nothing to do with the pretrib rapture, as that occurs before the time of Jacobs trouble and before Gods wrath.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Jesus quits reading in the temple right BEFORE day of vengeance, if "pre trib" was a truth Isaiah would have written it and Jesus would have stopped before it, but that just didn't happen

Sorry but I have no idea what you are referring to.

If I made a statement like - Isaiah didn't say there was not a pretribulation raputre so that proves it. That would be bad logic, as is most of what you have presented.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Pretrib can just never admit to no timing in all their citations of proof, all the while dismissing the actual proof of timing.

Crazy old world. 

Yeah, I know all about that pinpoint timing that you are referring to.

Matt 24

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

[dhchristian]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

But why is the church being raptured?  What purpose of God is it serving?  IDK

DeighAnn, 

As someone who was born and raised in the pretrib camp, but am not one any longer let me take some time to explain why I have chosen this course (I am Pre wrath). I have asked many of the same questions you have in my studies, but first i want to answer this one for you because we are raptured eventually and the reason why is because we are the righteousness of God, made righteous by the blood of the lamb. This is How God has done this throughout his interactions with mankind as he is loving and merciful as well as a just God. Any time there have been the righteous involved in scripture, they have not been allowed to witness the Wrath of God... think about this, as hopefully this will maintain your faith in the rapture itself as wholly scriptural. for example Noah was locked in an ark (As in the days of Noah), Lot and his family were told not to look back (Jesus even alludes to this saying remember Lot's wife), Israel was locked in their Homes behind the blood of the lamb on the Post and lintel, the ultimate picture of what the rapture entails. So we, the church of Christ Jesus are made righteous by the blood of the lamb also will not be allowed to witness the wrath of God. This is our blessed Hope, and i Hope this affirms that belief in you.

Now as for the church, and why I reject the pretrib rapture, and lean towards a pre-wrath rapture. 

There is a process in revelation that shows what happens to the church.... We are all laodiceans in the laodicean church age now.... this is the assumption that many disagree with me on, but is the foundation of what I am saying.... hear me out. This church is the AMEN of the church age, as the final week for Israel begins. She doctrinally goes from being a virgin to a woman, creating offspring, those offspring are the saints of Revelation, they are the ones who reach the fulness of Christ, a term you need to make yourself familiar with. The beast makes war on these saints, while the woman herself is protected in the wilderness (being flown there on wings of Eagles along with another woman Israel who flees there (Rev. 12)). Those saints who face the persecution of the beast for that first three and half years are there for the purpose of overcoming Satan By the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony (Rev. 12:11) Which results in him being cast down from heaven and being able to accuse the brethren before God, He loses Power over the air and is now earthly and earth bound. It is then, when Jesus comes and Kills the man of sin, and begins His wrath, the wrath of the lamb, which goes hand in hand with the rapture, this being the judgement of the house of God (1 Peter 4:17) NOW after this judgment the raptured true believers and saints, (The faithful and the saints) What is left of that woman becomes the Whore riding out of the wilderness on the beast from the bottomless pit. Yes, many religions are part of this whore, but this is directly in reference to the church so called who are not the saints and the faithful. To simply outline this for you let me diagram this for you.

1 Church=faithful, saints, and tares. 

2 Church becomes the woman (Faithful and tares, in the wilderness) and the saints. 

3 Saints persevere, overcome Satan, Jesus comes and separates the wheat from the tares 

4. Now you have remaining the Saints who have given their testimony (Martyria), the faithful who are raptured, the tares who become the whore of Rev. 17 riding out of the wilderness to face the wrath of God. 

Once you understand this simple transition, you will understand all of revelation and how it falls into place with the Olivet discourse as well as Paul's teachings on end times. Tribulation is parcel to all believers, the great tribulation only for those who are chosen by God by divine lot as saints to suffer, and resurrection is for all. The Great tribulation will be the churches finest hour, and it takes the overcomers of the most malignant church age to accomplish this, the ones who have been seduced by the riches and prosperity this world and Satan has to offer and have rejected these things and laid up their treasures in heaven, for they have truly overcome as Christ overcame, refusing the worship Satan who offered him his kingdom if he worships him, and so too will we overcome, by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. Amen!

 

 

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church.

I am writing (make that trying to write)  a paper and as you WILL SEE I need help (more like an overhaul) with its accuracy and presentation.  I have many "bits" that I believe ask many of the the questions and give many of the answers I am trying to explain but every time I go back and "revise" it keeps getting  worse. I am looking for any important things I have missed, answers to questions I do not have.  I am setting out a "fleece" of sorts.   It could be God just wants me to do it on my own (He has before).   I will soon have my answer either way.  

Hi DeighAnn,

The reason that there is a lot of confusion is that the events that are described as prophecy are not placed in the correct place in the time line, or incorrectly associated with another event.

For example, Matt 24- 25, Mk 13, and Lk 21, are about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the time after the 70 AD destruction known as the times of the gentiles (ToG's) Lk 21:20-24,24, and the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel (1967) as a sign of His coming (2nd).

But pre-trib usually says that none of this (Matt 24 etc.) has happened yet.

There are many other scriptures also that are mixed up between the 70 AD destruction and the 2nd coming for salvation.

In order to clarify the prophecies you must sort it out, decide which is which.

-----------------------

Another example would be the number of resurrections. 1 Cor 15:23-28, clearly shows the timeline of events concerning the resurrections.

It shows 2 resurrections only.

The first resurrection, Jesus 33 AD.

The second, when Jesus comes for the kingdom.

Pre-trib can show as many as 7 or more, but contradicts the scriptures by adding resurrections. It comes from reading the Revelation as one continual time line which it is not. It is a broken time line centering on Israel the natural branches. It is the same time period over and over from different points of view.

Basically from 37 AD when the natural branches rejected the Pentecost gospel message and God withdrew His blessings on them, until the restoration of Jerusalem and the aftermath resurrection when Jesus comes for the kingdom.(It is not sweet news, it is bitter).

-----------------------

 

[abcdef]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church.

I am writing (make that trying to write)  a paper and as you WILL SEE I need help (more like an overhaul) with its accuracy and presentation.  I have many "bits" that I believe ask many of the the questions and give many of the answers I am trying to explain but every time I go back and "revise" it keeps getting  worse. I am looking for any important things I have missed, answers to questions I do not have.  I am setting out a "fleece" of sorts.   It could be God just wants me to do it on my own (He has before).   I will soon have my answer either way.  

The "proof" given for the Church being raptured before the tribulation is given by  (have missed some important parts, I'm sure I have)

1.  Its lack of being mentioned after Revelation chapters 2 and 3.  

The Revelation centers on the natural branches after they rejected the Pentecost gospel kingdom in 37 AD until Jerusalem is restored, basically.

The kingdom is not delivered up to the Father until AFTER death is destroyed 1 Cor 15:23-28, Rev 20:14-15.

-----------

The souls seen with Jesus and John in heaven in 96 AD are all the OT souls from the first resurrection when Jesus rose Eph 4:8.

The 144000 is all Israel from the OT., and the multitude that no man can count (MTNMCC) is the saved gentiles from the OT.

They are NOT the Pentecost gospel kingdom/church. Only John goes through the door in Rev 4:1-2. Literally.

------------

The events of the seals, trumpets, and the 2 witnesses (2W's) center on the natural branches.

The seals are from 37 AD until 70 AD. The 6th seal is the day of the Lord against Jerusalem 67 AD- 70 AD.

The trumpets follow the seals, showing the natural branches suffering until they are restored to Jerusalem (1-4 trumpets)

The symbols used to describe the suffering of the natural branches and their meanings can all be found in the OT.

-------------

The enemies that are shown are against both the natural branches and the wild/kingdom branches.

So when they, mostly Rome, are seen attacking, it is both, but the unbelieving natural branches are the ones featured in the narrative.

---------------

While the unbelieving natural branches suffer, the souls in the kingdom/church enjoy a salvation relationship with God under the new covenant.

While both groups suffer hardship in this world, the kingdom/church has God's blessings.

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

16  only saints to overcome the Overcomer  ??

Satan is coming to overcome the world

 

36 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

DeighAnn, 

As someone who was born and raised in the pretrib camp, but am not one any longer let me take some time to explain why I have chosen this course (I am Pre wrath). I have asked many of the same questions you have in my studies, but first i want to answer this one for you because we are raptured eventually and the reason why is because we are the righteousness of God, made righteous by the blood of the lamb. This is How God has done this throughout his interactions with mankind as he is loving and merciful as well as a just God. Any time there have been the righteous involved in scripture, they have not been allowed to witness the Wrath of God... think about this, as hopefully this will maintain your faith in the rapture itself as wholly scriptural. for example Noah was locked in an ark (As in the days of Noah), Lot and his family were told not to look back (Jesus even alludes to this saying remember Lot's wife), Israel was locked in their Homes behind the blood of the lamb on the Post and lintel, the ultimate picture of what the rapture entails. So we, the church of Christ Jesus are made righteous by the blood of the lamb also will not be allowed to witness the wrath of God. This is our blessed Hope, and i Hope this affirms that belief in you.

Now as for the church, and why I reject the pretrib rapture, and lean towards a pre-wrath rapture. 

There is a process in revelation that shows what happens to the church.... We are all laodiceans in the laodicean church age now.... this is the assumption that many disagree with me on, but is the foundation of what I am saying.... hear me out. This church is the AMEN of the church age, as the final week for Israel begins. She doctrinally goes from being a virgin to a woman, creating offspring, those offspring are the saints of Revelation, they are the ones who reach the fulness of Christ, a term you need to make yourself familiar with. The beast makes war on these saints, while the woman herself is protected in the wilderness (being flown there on wings of Eagles along with another woman Israel who flees there (Rev. 12)). Those saints who face the persecution of the beast for that first three and half years are there for the purpose of overcoming Satan By the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony (Rev. 12:11) Which results in him being cast down from heaven and being able to accuse the brethren before God, He loses Power over the air and is now earthly and earth bound. It is then, when Jesus comes and Kills the man of sin, and begins His wrath, the wrath of the lamb, which goes hand in hand with the rapture, this being the judgement of the house of God (1 Peter 4:17) NOW after this judgment the raptured true believers and saints, (The faithful and the saints) What is left of that woman becomes the Whore riding out of the wilderness on the beast from the bottomless pit. Yes, many religions are part of this whore, but this is directly in reference to the church so called who are not the saints and the faithful. To simply outline this for you let me diagram this for you.

1 Church=faithful, saints, and tares. 

2 Church becomes the woman (Faithful and tares, in the wilderness) and the saints. 

3 Saints persevere, overcome Satan, Jesus comes and separates the wheat from the tares 

4. Now you have remaining the Saints who have given their testimony (Martyria), the faithful who are raptured, the tares who become the whore of Rev. 17 riding out of the wilderness to face the wrath of God. 

Once you understand this simple transition, you will understand all of revelation and how it falls into place with the Olivet discourse as well as Paul's teachings on end times. Tribulation is parcel to all believers, the great tribulation only for those who are chosen by God by divine lot as saints to suffer, and resurrection is for all. The Great tribulation will be the churches finest hour, and it takes the overcomers of the most malignant church age to accomplish this, the ones who have been seduced by the riches and prosperity this world and Satan has to offer and have rejected these things and laid up their treasures in heaven, for they have truly overcome as Christ overcame, refusing the worship Satan who offered him his kingdom if he worships him, and so too will we overcome, by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. Amen!

 

 

Thank you for that, much appreciated.  

I too am pre wrath, of sorts, sort of. I think.  

I never use the word "rapture" because of its association with "the doctrine" and its not in Gods Word.  Good enough for me.  

My take, super short leaving out almost everything

The synagogue of Satan (mystery of iniquity) has been long time getting ready for these end times when Satan (only in spiritual influence) will begin his reign.  That reign starts with beast system up and running, while yet in the beginning stages, suffers the deadly wound.  The makings for it are all almost in place.  One world financial. (electronic) CHECK.  One world education (sheeple) CHECK.  One world Political (still hidden but you can bet they are almost all on the same page)  so I give it a close to check.  And that one world religion...coming, every belief satisfied at the same time through lies and deception and flatteries soon to be followed by wonderous signs and miracles and all you would expect A  SUPERNATURAL SAVIOUR of the world to be doing.  
 The great falling away as the Christians of the world leave God and join the world in worship of what is happening on the earth. (worship the beast, image given life, take the mark etc.)  


THE BEGINNING OF THE TRIBULATION 

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

THE END OF THE TRIBULATION - THE RETURN OF THE LORD - SATAN BOUND 

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Enoch, (imho) as he preached about the fallen angels, and angels are going to be falling again. 

1 Kings 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

Was Moses translated?  Don't know, no bones and all, but the mount of transfiguration. Is this the time to be teaching Gods Law?  Seems more a time of preaching to those who are lost in deception. 

Take with a grain of salt as WHO AM I TO SPECULATE?  

Bottom line - Gods Wrath can fall at any time.  Whether I be in this physical body or have been changed into my spiritual body when Christ returns,  matters not to me.  I have read about the parting of the sea, the pillar of fire, the cloud, the burning bush, the fiery furnace, the lions den, time going backwards, the ark, the writing on the wall, the hidden armies, etc.  I get it. 

God doesn't give us more than we can handle.  I can handle being betrayed by family and given up to death for a 10 day trial.  I have no problem with being beheaded.  No matter what comes my way especially in those days, I will take with me the knowledge given to us by THE WORD and know to believe in Gods Promises, He is in control and whereever He leads for whatever reason, I will go.  I am one of those who feel the truth of "oh death where is thy sting".  What I love most about this life is the time I get to spend in the WORD.   So no matter where I am when Christ returns and Gods Wrath falls upon THEM I have no worries.  I have faith.  Hallelujah and Amen