The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[Omegaman 3.0]

8 hours ago, Spock said:

I will just share a few thoughts with you to ponder if you like.

1. the church is not destined to experience God’s wrath...promises made throughout NT.

2. so I feel 100% confident church won’t be in the final 3.5 years after the abomination.

3. I’m not 100% sure church is excluded from the first half of the 70th week because I’m not 100% sure when God’s wrath begins.

4. I’ve not seen anywhere in scripture that says the church is exempt from the entire week....just exempt from God’s wrath.

5. I do believe the first 5 seals have been released since Jesus’ ascension and next up is the 6th seal, but I’m not sure when that is released....before 70th week or sometime in the first 3.5 years....not sure.

6. I believe Matthews account of the Olivet Discourse is Jewish laden, not really meant for the church. The apostles asked three questions, none had to do with a rapture...I’m sure they didn’t even know what a rapture was. 
7. the church is returning to earth with Christ in Rev 19 so to me that negates any post Trib theory

8. the Bible is clear telling us to look for Jesus Christ, not the Antichrist. I am....

9. I think pre Trib may not be the best label for this doctrine because the Bible never talks about 7 years of tribulation, only 3.5 years (1260 days, 42 months, times, times and half a time). 
10. 1 thes 4 and 1 cor 15 is all I need to know about a rapture....it is definitely happening and In my opinion definitely before God unleashed his wrath....after 6th seal.

I guess I have not been paying attention Spock, as I have not seen you around, but Hi!

I have some observations to make, perhaps not counter-points, but:

On number 1, there church does not have to experience God's wrath, to be on earth during it. This is clear from the stories of Lot and Noah, that Jesus referred to, we could add the Hebrews in Egypt. In those cases, God poured out judgment, but spared Noah, Lot, and the Hebrews from it, by protecting or preserving them through it, though they we still present.
One of the verses sometimes summoned as a promise to the church that is will avoid the tribulation (though there are many verses that promise tribulation and persecution to the church) is 1 Thess 5:9:

For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. It could be argued in that case, that the wrath referred to is God's judgement upon all of the unsaved, and that instead he rescues us through the salvation He offers in Christ Jesus.

On number 2, I do not have that confidence. I suppose it depends on who one thinks the church is. I happen to think it is every believer in all time and every place, that has placed their faith in Jesus as their Lord. That would include those mentioned in Revelation 20:4, where it says:

"Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
 cannot find it in myself to say that these Christians (pre-tribbers made up a special category for them they call Tribulation Saints) are not part of the Church. If any Christians "deserve" to be spared, it is those who faced certain death for worshiping Jesus and defying the Antichrist.

On number 6, I agree with you that Matthew 24 is very Judeocentric. whether is is meant for the church is not really the point, never-the-less, it was given to those who would be the foundation of the church, and they were instructed to make disciples, and repeat His teaching to them. These men we the first member of the church, and obviously Jesus knew that. My point is her though, that no matter who it is 'meant for', it contains a description of things to come, and not just the things, but the sequence of them.
You are also correct, that they asked three questions, and they did not mention the rapture, and likely did not know what that was. The fact is hardly relevant though, then did not ask about the abomination of desolation either, but Jesus by way of giving a thorough explanation added that in. Not only that but He said "when you see the abomination of desolation", that that was when the great tribulation starts. Did these disciples see that? I do not think they did. If that is the case, then that instruction was not for their benefit, but for those who would be present in the time of birth pangs, and the middle of Daniel's 70th week.
Also, Jesus said that He would return visibly, the idea that He might return secretly or invisible, as Darbyists maintain, is not a Bible teaching, it is a presumption that I believe is entirely meritless if scripture is the standard, and not speculation.
Now did Jesus mention the Rapture in the passage? I don't know, but He did say he was coming to be present. He describes some features of that coming, His parousia. It will be visible. It will be immediately after the tribulation of those days. He will send out His angels. There will be a loud trumpet. The angels will gather his elect from the four winds. Sound very, very similar to other passages, which do describe the rapture, but maybe that is all just coincidence.

On number 7:

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the church is returning to earth with Christ in Rev 19 so to me that negates any post Trib theory 

 

Except the standard post-trib theory, wherein Jesus leaves heaven to appear in the sky, gather His saints from around the world, first the dead in Christ, and then the living, to meet Him in the air, and they shall forever be with the Lord from then on. Then He and His saints, come to earth. I am not seeing how that is negated.

On number 8:

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the Bible is clear telling us to look for Jesus Christ, not the Antichrist. I am....

There I think you are half correct. We are to look expectantly for His return, but we are also told to be aware to the times and events, the main one being the anti-christ, so we will know when it is time to expect great tribulation, and to hang on for the blessed hope, Jesus himself.  “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30As soon as they come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and know that the summer is already near. 31 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place. Luke 21

On your number 9:

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I think pre Trib may not be the best label for this doctrine because the Bible never talks about 7 years of tribulation, only 3.5 years (1260 days, 42 months, times, times and half a time). 

I sort of agree with you. Generally, you are correct, the Bible does not ever use a phrase like "7 year tribulation". However, there is a period of 7 years (which I usually call Daniel's 70th week". Within that 7 years there is tribulation, but tribulation is a feature of it, something that occurs within it, it is not the time period itself.
However, I am not willing to say that there is not tribulation in the first 3.5 years, after all there has been tribulation throughout all of church history. In Matt 24 thoug, it does say this:

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. 9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

Now, there in mentions tribulation, on the tail of the birth pangs, so there is some wiggle room, but, you are correct, in that the term "great tribulation" is something that is applied after the mid point of the 7 years:

15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 

Your number 10 is interesting:

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1 thes 4 and 1 cor 15 is all I need to know about a rapture

In 1st Cor 15 we see:

51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

There is a trumpet again, I though that sounded familiar. It says the the dead will be raised, and "we" shall be changed. I have to assume that since the did not happen to Paul, that the "we" are those alive at Jesus' parousia, His visible 2nd coming after the great tribulation, again:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Nothing in Matt 24, is incompatible with other passages, but pre-tribbers tend to like to wish it did not exist, so they go lengths to disregard it, to explain it away. There us really no sound reason, as far as I am concerned to do that. It is after all, the most thoroughly expounded passage of the sequence of events to come, in the entire Bible. Unlike the book of Revelation (which is full of imagery and visions) and not in sequential order, Matthew is straight forward and easily understood. I think Matt 24 and it's counterparts in Mark and Luke therefore make good standard to measure less clear passages against (a standard rule in exegesis)

Re: 1 Thess 4, let's get part of in in plain view here:

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Paul did not want Christians to be ignorant, so he provided some detail to enlighten us. First he point out that there are two classes of dead people, those who are asleep (dead) in Christ, and those who have no hope (or those who are grieving because there is no hope of the dead outside of Christ rising to glory). Those who believe and have died, through Jesus, God will bring with Him, those (brothers) who have died.
Now, according to the Lord's own word, those who remain until the coming (parousia again) of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen (died) asleep. Let that sink in!
That is expressly saying that the living Christians will not be raptured to be with Christ prior to the dead Christ being raised. It is very clear, nothing remotely vague about that. If only we knew the sequence that would show us, when the dead in Christ would be raised/resurrected, then we might have a good clue about when the rapture is, in the overall sequence of events.

Returning to Revelation 4, we see:

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So, there we see some of the dead in Christ, these ones happen to have lived during the time of tribulation, as indicated by the fact that they had not takens it's mark on thier hands and foreheads, and in fact were beheaded during that time. Then it (Revelation) goes on to say of this rising of the dead (where they came to life again):

This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Yeah, so all I need to know about the rapture is in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4, once the understanding is expanded with the understanding that before there is a rapture, there is a resurrection, the "first resurrection", which happens (according to the Bible) after the time that Christians are being killed for their faith (as Jesus said in Matt 24) which is expressly after the time of the beast activity.

I know there will be those who refuse this understanding, but this is not for them. It is for those who want to understand what the Bible says, not what some people believe it means. That is why I quoted scripture.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/23/2020 at 9:35 AM, DeighAnn said:

The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church.

DeighAnn, I think the way you have framed and expanded upon the topic is great. I believe you really have and open and searching mind that wants to know what God has revealed, and I think that is awesome.

I do note that your posts are lengthy, with good explanations for your thoughts. I am guilty of that at times myself. It is not a bad thing, but we have so many fast food Christians, than many will just skim over them, but some will read them with sobriety. Good job!

[Spock]

Greetings back at you Omegaman,

yes, I seem to come and go a lot so if you don’t see me, it’s because I’m preoccupied with other priorities. 
 

your rebuttal to several of my points was very good, easy to follow along. I like your style. Well done.

for now, there are a few points that popped up in my head as I was reading your points:

1. Yes, the disciples didn’t ask about the abomination and yes Jesus did reference it, but they may have known about it seeing that Jesus referenced them back to Daniel’s book. It would very difficult to reference the rapture back in the OT, although some have tried and maybe are right....Isaiah 26 being the best of what I’ve seen. 

2. Rev 20:4 is interesting. You see this group as church members just like you and I...and maybe they are. But I see them as people who were not believers before the rapture and SUBSEQUENTLY became believers and as a result, knew not to take the mark of the beast and were willing to die in such belief. Don’t forget, an angel is going throughout the world telling people not to take the mark or else.....! I see no reason why you can’t have a group of “new believers” who didn’t make the rapture with the church.  I also believe martyrs at anytime get acknowledged by our Lord, including this group. They may not have believed before the rapture, but they got their game on immediately after. Well done Trib saints! 
 

3. Matthew 24:29-31:  you seem to think that is the rapture, immediately AFTER the great tribulation....and maybe it is. But, it seems more like 2nd coming time to me, with rapture being earlier on.  I don’t see a rapture of all believers just as Jesus is returning to earth. What is the purpose in lifting them up in the clouds just to immediately return to the earth?  It doesn’t seem logical to me to do that, and you know I’m all about being logical. In addition, if all believers are caught up, then I guess everyone who is not taken up is an unbeliever....so do they immediately get a one way ticket to hell? Maybe I’m confused about the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 but it seemed to me Jesus would be separating out the sheep and goats who I assume are living people with physical bodies, not just some resurrected people with immortal bodies and the others with physical mortal bodies.  My last point on this passage....this Matthew passage has angels very involved in gathering people.....what does the classic and primary rapture passage say in 1 thes 4?  Any mention of angels doing anything, including gathering people? Let’s see...

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The only mention I see of any angel is the “voice of an archangel“......I don’t see any other mention of angel activity going on in this rapture. So, again, I still don’t see Matt 24:29-31 as being THE RAPTURE. 
 

well, I will stop there for now...it’s passed 5:00 and I need to prepare my dinner before heading out tonight. Let me conclude with this thought....what do you see is the purpose of the GREAT TRIBULATION? I see it serving two purposes:

a. Judge the world of earth dwellers (unbelievers)

b. Purge Israel

Your point is noted in that we don’t have to be lifted out of here for him to protect us, but I believe he will. It fits to me as I piece all of scripture together. I can see it doesn’t make sense to you so I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.  The fullness of the Gentiles has come in, Romans 11:25, and now it’s time for God to go back and deal with his other chosen people, Israel. We are the bride of Christ and we will be taken away to be married with the king while all hell is breaking out here on earth. The Jewish wedding is a great visual/model for one to ponder regarding the rapture of the church.  It makes sense to me to see the bride returning to earth with Christ in Rev 19....having been there for a while when he promised he would come and get us in John 14:1-3. 
 

In conclusion, if people disagree on nonessential doctrines, such as this one, If they do it in love and respect, God is glorified, because Jesus told us to love one another as I have loved you. That is what is really important.  So, please don’t think I need for you to see things as I see them, because I don’t. I enjoyed reading your perspective even though I don’t agree. Maybe you are right....maybe not! We shall soon see...

spock out

[Omegaman 3.0]

OKAY Spock, thanks for the reply, and your cordiality! I will likely comment further, a little as least, but will wait until you have returned to finish you thoughts. I like that you have some "maybes" in there, and that you can demonstrate that it is possible do disagree on things, and have it be in the spirit of discussion, sharing, and learning. I am grateful, as there are some who do not seem to be able to function in such a reverent way, as though we are enemies, if we disagree!

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, theElect777 said:

I have been pointing out the facts.

This may well be because some peoples "facts" are not truth to others. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

On number 1, there church does not have to experience God's wrath, to be on earth during it. This is clear from the stories of Lot and Noah, that Jesus referred to, we could add the Hebrews in Egypt. In those cases, God poured out judgment, but spared Noah, Lot, and the Hebrews from it, by protecting or preserving them through it, though they we still present.
One of the verses sometimes summoned as a promise to the church that is will avoid the tribulation (though there are many verses that promise tribulation and persecution to the church) is 1 Thess 5:9:

For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. It could be argued in that case, that the wrath referred to is God's judgement upon all of the unsaved, and that instead he rescues us through the salvation He offers in Christ Jesus..

Let's talk about this. Part of God's wrath will be the trumpets and vials. What if someone is on the sea and on the 1/3 that turns to blood? Or when it all turns to blood in the vial? How could they escape His wrath? What if someone lives in the 1/3 of wherever or whatever that all the fresh water turns to blood?  i cannot find a verse anywhere where God will create fresh water for His people - or make any effort to leave fresh water in certain areas. Then what will happen to believers when all the fresh water turns to blood?  I think the truth is obvious: they will suffer with the nonbelievers - which is WHY God will pull His church out before His wrath. 

Then consider the stinging locusts. Gentile new believers will not be sealed for their protection. In other words, they will suffer right along with nonbelievers. 

Note, there is a HUGE difference between the daily tribulations of the church age and the time of God's wrath. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

On number 2, I do not have that confidence. I suppose it depends on who one thinks the church is. I happen to think it is every believer in all time and every place, that has placed their faith in Jesus as their Lord. That would include those mentioned in Revelation 20:4, where it says:

"Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
 cannot find it in myself to say that these Christians (pre-tribbers made up a special category for them they call Tribulation Saints) are not part of the Church. If any Christians "deserve" to be spared, it is those who faced certain death for worshiping Jesus and defying the Antichrist.

If we study Paul (the ONLY writer who received the revelation of the rapture) we can discover that his rapture will come just before wrath. ( I see this clearly in 1 thes. 5. It may be difficult to see this with posttrib or prewrath glasses on.)

If we study the 5th seal, the martyrs of the church age, they are told something very interesting: they must wait for the LAST or final martyr before judgment comes. It is even more interesting when we see that judgment begins (as the Day of the Lord) with the very next seal. What did John mean, killed or martyred as they were? Some were fed to lions, others beheaded, others crucified. So John cannot be talking about how each martyr was killed. So what did he mean by "as they were?"  I think the meaning is clear: killed as CHURCH AGE martyrs. That is the way all of them will be killed. So what would make the final "church age" martyr? Of course the END of the church age. 

Therefore I see the pretrib rapture ENDING the church age and happened just before the start of the Day of the Lord. Jesus comes as a thief, the dead in Christ rise, and the Day of the Lord (sudden destruction) earthquake hits - caused when God raises the dead in Christ. Those who are alive and in Christ are raised just as he ground begins to quake. Then the DAY starts as a thief, because HE CAME as a thief, and His coming will trigger the rapture and the rapture will trigger THE DAY. So both THE DAY and Christ comes as a thief.  The main point is, the church age ENDS.

That means, all those left behind can certainly resist the Beast, refuse the mark, and lose their head - and become 70th week martyrs. But will they be a part of the church? I don't see how when the church age ends at the rapture.  The fact is, they will be "tribulation saints." However, I doubt if they will be "born again." I think that is reserved for the church.  Some think the Holy Spirit goes with the church. Perhaps in some respect: all the saints He has been working through will be taken out of the way.  But I suspect it will be just as it was before the day of Pentecost.  It is all speculation because John has not given us these particulars. It is therefore IMHO.  Keep in mind, the tribulation saints are left behind for a reason: they could have been ready but were NOT. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

On number 6, I agree with you that Matthew 24 is very Judeocentric. whether is is meant for the church is not really the point, never-the-less, it was given to those who would be the foundation of the church, and they were instructed to make disciples, and repeat His teaching to them. These men we the first member of the church, and obviously Jesus knew that. My point is her though, that no matter who it is 'meant for', it contains a description of things to come, and not just the things, but the sequence of them.
You are also correct, that they asked three questions, and they did not mention the rapture, and likely did not know what that was. The fact is hardly relevant though, then did not ask about the abomination of desolation either, but Jesus by way of giving a thorough explanation added that in. Not only that but He said "when you see the abomination of desolation", that that was when the great tribulation starts. Did these disciples see that? I do not think they did. If that is the case, then that instruction was not for their benefit, but for those who would be present in the time of birth pangs, and the middle of Daniel's 70th week.
Also, Jesus said that He would return visibly, the idea that He might return secretly or invisible, as Darbyists maintain, is not a Bible teaching, it is a presumption that I believe is entirely meritless if scripture is the standard, and not speculation.
Now did Jesus mention the Rapture in the passage? I don't know, but He did say he was coming to be present. He describes some features of that coming, His parousia. It will be visible. It will be immediately after the tribulation of those days. He will send out His angels. There will be a loud trumpet. The angels will gather his elect from the four winds. Sound very, very similar to other passages, which do describe the rapture, but maybe that is all just coincidence.

Please forgive me for answering your post not addressed to me. I found it too interesting not to answer. 

If that is the case, then that instruction was not for their benefit, but for those who would be present in the time of birth pangs, and the middle of Daniel's 70th week.  True. However, pretribbers believe the church won't be here - and for good reason.

Jesus said that He would return visibly, the idea that He might return secretly or invisible, as Darbyists maintain, is not a Bible teaching, it is a presumption that I believe is entirely meritless if scripture is the standard Why would you say this? Have you ever watched a jet plane disappear into a cloud? It did not disappear - it just became invisible due to the clouds blocking your line of sight to the plane.  1 Thes. 4 tells us Jesus will BE in a cloud:  "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Since we cannot see into clouds, that makes me think He will be invisible. In other words, it makes me quite sure that "every eye shall see Him" is a different coming at a different time. Therefore, Darby may well have been right and it IS a bible teaching. (Why do people imagine pretribbers make stuff up?)

It will be immediately after the tribulation of those days.  Agreed: His coming as per Rev. 19 is certainly after the trib' of those days. But then, His coming as per 1 thes. 4 is just before Wrath - so pretrib. Again scripture proves TWO MORE comings. 

The angels will gather his elect from the four winds.   Here we get into trouble. If we consider all four gospels, this gathering will gather from the furthest part of heaven to the furthest part of earth: therefore it simply CANNOT be Paul's rapture that will gather from the earth.  Again, Paul's rapture is just before wrath, while this gathering is after the trib: these two points will be over 7 years apart  so CANNOT be speaking of the same event. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

On number 7:

Except the standard post-trib theory, wherein Jesus leaves heaven to appear in the sky, gather His saints from around the world, first the dead in Christ, and then the living, to meet Him in the air, and they shall forever be with the Lord from then on. Then He and His saints, come to earth. I am not seeing how that is negated.

It does not fit all the end times scriptures. First, it ignores John 14. Second, it does not fit with the truth that Jesus will remain in heaven for the entire 70th week - considering that Paul tells us HIS rapture will be just before wrath which is before the week. According to Paul's timing, the church must go to heavern for that is where HE will be. Third, it makes it impossible for the church to get to the marriage and supper, which will take place IN HEAVEN before Christ descends to Armageddon. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

On number 8:

There I think you are half correct. We are to look expectantly for His return, but we are also told to be aware to the times and events, the main one being the anti-christ, so we will know when it is time to expect great tribulation, and to hang on for the blessed hope, Jesus himself.  “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30As soon as they come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and know that the summer is already near. 31 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place. Luke 21

 

Question: can anyone truly be "looking for Him" when they believe in their heart that they will see the Beast first?  

 

^{Heb. 9:28} so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

In other words, are you expecting Him tonight?

Edited August 11, 2020 by iamlamad