The TWO Witnesses?

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Logostician said:

I tend to agree.  Moses, the great law giver, and Elijah, the great prophet appear at the transfiguration of Jesus.  They discuss the things to come.  Elijah was translated to heaven.  Moses was buried by God.  Nobody else I know of was buried by God.  It's mysterious enough to make me think that God took Moses like he took Enoch and Elijah.  However, there is also some logic to Enoch being one of the two witnesses as well, in addition to his translation by God.  Enoch preceded Noah during the time when the world was approaching destruction by the great flood.  He was God's primary witness in this largely godless time.

Jude 14-15

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these saying behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints to execute judgement upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and all of their ungodly speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The great flood and great tribulation both entail the purifying destruction of the world at their respective times.  First with water, and then with fire.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Enoch may announce both judgements of God.

As a side note, destruction by water and fire are also divine purification.  There is a parallel here to baptism.

Mat 3:11

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear.  He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

The great flood (water) and the fast approaching end times (fire) are both divine means to purify this world just as our own repentance and receiving of the Spirit purify us.  This purification has to happen regardless of the trauma that it entails.  And the two witnesses will turn people to God even during these traumatic times, especially after they are killed and resurrected as Jesus was.

Rev 11:13

And the same hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand AND THE REMNANT WERE AFFRIGHTED AND GAVE GLORY TO THE GOD OF HEAVEN.

God has a purpose for everything.  Even the hard things.  He is purifying all things to usher in his everlasting kingdom.

 

 

 

Well written and I agree. The symbolism, typology and message I interpret about Enoch & Noah. Enoch walked with God and that pleased Him; could the same be said of the true born again believers, collectively called the Church? Enoch escaped the coming global judgment and punishment. Noah and his family were also 'lifted up' and were above and out of harms way. 

Matthew 24:37 (KJV) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. This begs the question; what was it like in the days of Noe, why did Jesus have to go so far back in history for His comparison? Immediately after this verse, it's clear Jesus can only be referring to the harpazo. Jesus's second coming that closes out the tribulation can be exactly marked using a calendar and 360 day year, no need to watch because the exact day will be known of His return. 

 Genesis 6:5 (KJV) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. With the recent historical escalation of everything going on today, both nationally and globally; I'd say were heading in that direction. If the Restrainer were to be suddenly removed, what would the globe be like? But I suspect there is much more to this and why Jesus went all the way back to the antediluvian period. Are we witnessing an exponential unrest, agenda, tyranny and evil taking over the globe? It's a published and known fact governments want biological super soldiers, space soldiers and enhanced humans for a myriad of reasons. It's a known fact much experimentation is taking place crossing the "kind" barriers with human / animal combinations. A well respected geneticist was asked, "how much of the human DNA can be changed before we cease to be human?" Her immediate response was, "less than 1%."

The historical pictures, pictographs, descriptions, statues, accounts, etc. from all the global ancient cultures of [half human - half animal] gods and demigods they worshiped; did someone just dream them up one day, or is there some truth of their existence? Not to mention the bones of giants being unearthed today?

I like this quote from Jan Markell of Olive Tree Ministries: "The world is not falling into pieces, the pieces are falling into place."

[Bible_Gazer]

I think these are:

Two candlestick = Rev. 1 candlesticks represented churches

Two olive trees =  Jews and Gentiles

Two witnesses = represent Jesus and his Gospel

Two prophets = represent his ministry

 The great city Sodom(flesh) and Egypt(false religions) = False Christianity crucifying our Lord afresh. Hebrews 6

The Temple = was the early rain church with its Apostles and ministry and saints.

Gentile trampled it = falling away

two witnesses standing on their feet again = restored church in the latter rain.

[Dennis1209]

55 minutes ago, Bible_Gazer said:

I think these are:

Two candlestick = Rev. 1 candlesticks represented churches

Two olive trees =  Jews and Gentiles

Two witnesses = represent Jesus and his Gospel

Two prophets = represent his ministry

 The great city Sodom(flesh) and Egypt(false religions) = False Christianity crucifying our Lord afresh. Hebrews 6

The Temple = was the early rain church with its Apostles and ministry and saints.

Gentile trampled it = falling away

two witnesses standing on their feet again = restored church in the latter rain.

Hi Bible_Gazer,

That's basically what I'm seriously looking at; could the two witnesses be two people groups, and not the traditional view of two individuals? There's a good scriptural debate on either side. With the symbolism given of the olive tree(s) and candlesticks, and the scriptural explanations of what they are and represent. Regardless of which view one is looking at, I think it can be agreed that whomever these two are; they are Resurrected and a Rapture has occurred. 

A stumbling block I run across in my hermeneutics and viewpoint based on my personal pretribulation view is; I don't see a 'general' resurrection at the mid point of the seven year tribulation? My viewpoint is there's a general Rapture / Resurrection prior to the seven year tribulation [the Gospel church Saints], at the second coming of Jesus at the end of the seven years [tribulation Saints], and at the close of the millennium for the Old Testament Saints. With the resurrection of the dead at the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the millennium. 

It also appears most reputable scholars agree on whom the olive tree, wild olive tree and candlesticks represent and the grafting in. My understanding is these two witnesses are murdered at some point about half way through the seven years, but we're not given the exact timing. If we knew if these two witnesses were murdered prior to or after the abomination of desolation, that might help?  

Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. [emphasis added]

In addition to the obvious rapid non linear increase in technological knowledge and advancements in this modern age; many past and present scholars claim this increase in knowledge has more to do with a biblical scriptural and prophetic knowledge, as we see the day approaching, and I concur. One quick example of dozens: For the first time, this is the only generation that can see how everything prophetic can come about by using technological advancements [image of the Beast, the whole world watching the two witnesses in real time, etc.]. The forming, posturing, buildup and alliances of the nations mentioned for the Gog - Magog invasion, never before in history have these nations had any formal ties, associations or commonalities. 

God's prophetic Word is unfolding right before our very own eyes, and we have the privilege to experience and witness it. Hearing that trumpet and shout "come up here"; I believe and feel is ever so close. What a glorious day that's going to be. 

[Last Daze]

I think the two witnesses rescued Lot (Genesis 18-19).  They are primarily spirit beings that can take human form or support the witness of other.  John the baptizer came in the spirit and power of Elijah.  What does that mean?  The same spirit beings that aided Elijah's witness aided John's.

When the ministry of the two witnesses is finished, who overcomes them?  The evil spirit being from the abyss.  Why not the man of sin?  Because the ministry of the two witnesses is primarily spiritual in nature.  Whether the two spirit beings take on human form as in the case of Lot, or God raises up two from the past (Moses, Elijah, Enoch, etc.) and they work through them isn't clear.

God's judgment and mercy bear witness to His righteousness.  Mercy and judgment are seen in the law and the prophets.  Jesus refers to mercy as a weightier provision of the law in Matt 23:23.  Judgment is carried out against those who disobey.  Mercy is shown to the repentant / obedient. 

[Bible_Gazer]

On 8/5/2020 at 10:14 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Hi Bible_Gazer,

That's basically what I'm seriously looking at; could the two witnesses be two people groups, and not the traditional view of two individuals? There's a good scriptural debate on either side. With the symbolism given of the olive tree(s) and candlesticks, and the scriptural explanations of what they are and represent. Regardless of which view one is looking at, I think it can be agreed that whomever these two are; they are Resurrected and a Rapture has occurred. 

A stumbling block I run across in my hermeneutics and viewpoint based on my personal pretribulation view is; I don't see a 'general' resurrection at the mid point of the seven year tribulation? My viewpoint is there's a general Rapture / Resurrection prior to the seven year tribulation [the Gospel church Saints], at the second coming of Jesus at the end of the seven years [tribulation Saints], and at the close of the millennium for the Old Testament Saints. With the resurrection of the dead at the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the millennium. 

It also appears most reputable scholars agree on whom the olive tree, wild olive tree and candlesticks represent and the grafting in. My understanding is these two witnesses are murdered at some point about half way through the seven years, but we're not given the exact timing. If we knew if these two witnesses were murdered prior to or after the abomination of desolation, that might help?  

Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. [emphasis added]

In addition to the obvious rapid non linear increase in technological knowledge and advancements in this modern age; many past and present scholars claim this increase in knowledge has more to do with a biblical scriptural and prophetic knowledge, as we see the day approaching, and I concur. One quick example of dozens: For the first time, this is the only generation that can see how everything prophetic can come about by using technological advancements [image of the Beast, the whole world watching the two witnesses in real time, etc.]. The forming, posturing, buildup and alliances of the nations mentioned for the Gog - Magog invasion, never before in history have these nations had any formal ties, associations or commonalities. 

God's prophetic Word is unfolding right before our very own eyes, and we have the privilege to experience and witness it. Hearing that trumpet and shout "come up here"; I believe and feel is ever so close. What a glorious day that's going to be. 

If these two prophets are just 2 people.  Why do most people think they have to be somebody from the past. I would think it would be somebody from the church at that time.

I see it seem to me you are a futurist. Everything from Rev. 6 is all future. I have a hard time making that work.

I am a mixture with Rev. 

Preterist - some of it was during the Roman Empire and Holy Roman Empire time.

Futurist - some of it is for the future

Historicist - some of it is History already fulfilled

Past - Present - Future

It was written to the early church to let them know what was going to happened to the church falling away and restored.

For us it is for to know history of the church and restoration of the church and the future church.

I don't the think the first part of Rev. 11 until you read about the 7 trumpet is all in between trumpet 6 and 7. 

I think part of is starting from the early church up to the coming of the Lord.

I don't think everything in Rev. is all in chronological order as you read it. If so,  we are going to have 3 different beasts coming at different times from different places.

book of Revelation is a head scratcher sometime.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Bible_Gazer

[Tigger56]

Interesting. I know many ponder who the two witnesses are. We are nearing the time of tribulation and the two witnesses are two people alive upon the earth at this time. One is on Israel and one is of Judah. One is in our country at this time and one is in Jerusalem at this time. Both already know their destinies but are not know of the world at this time.

[Dennis1209]

20 hours ago, Bible_Gazer said:

If these two prophets are just 2 people.  Why do most people think they have to be somebody from the past. I would think it would be somebody from the church at that time.

I see it seem to me you are a futurist. Everything from Rev. 6 is all future. I have a hard time making that work.

I am a mixture with Rev. 

Preterist - some of it was during the Roman Empire and Holy Roman Empire time.

Futurist - some of it is for the future

Historicist - some of it is History already fulfilled

Past - Present - Future

It was written to the early church to let them know what was going to happened to the church falling away and restored.

For us it is for to know history of the church and restoration of the church and the future church.

I don't the think the first part of Rev. 11 until you read about the 7 trumpet is all in between trumpet 6 and 7. 

I think part of is starting from the early church up to the coming of the Lord.

I don't think everything in Rev. is all in chronological order as you read it. If so,  we are going to have 3 different beasts coming at different times from different places.

book of Revelation is a head scratcher sometime.

A head scratcher? Yea it still is with a myriad of different viewpoints, which are correct? Prior to 73 years ago, our great-grandfathers and previous generations had no idea how Israel could be reborn in just one day? They just knew it would be. In hindsight we see how and the process Israel was reborn and declared a nation in just 'one day' by the League of nations [United Nations], the persecution and genocide of the Jew's in WW 2, Balfore Declaration etc. Our forefathers couldn't imagine how the entire globe could watch the two witnesses and their lying in the streets dead for 3 1/2 days and their resurrection. Today with satellite, smart phones, internet, TV, live streaming etc., that's a no brainer. 

Prior to our generation, no one could fathom how the False Prophet could command an image of the Beast be made. Now with the advent of robotics, artificial intelligence, computers and electronics, the world wide web and a ton of other advancements; it's not a mystery anymore. All the preceding is to say, the half darkly glass has and is clearing up for the terminal generation. 

It's my view the book of Revelation is written in chronological order: Revelation 1:19 (KJV) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; [past-present-future]. In John's day, chapters 1-3 cover his past and present; chapter four begins "shall be hereafter. If you count the number of times the church is mentioned in chapters 1-3, you come up with 19 times. If you count the number of times the church is mentioned from Revelation chapter four to nineteen, it's zero; something happened. I believe John's calling up is symbolic of the Rapture and the 24 Elders are symbolic of the church in Heaven. 

Anyway... I view Revelation as written in chronological order with chapters 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 as being parenthetical. The seven churches can be accurately dated in history and now we have a combination of all seven churches with us today. 

For a thing to be believed and accepted, the Jew's always required two or more witnesses, or a sign from God. Two is the biblical number for union, division or witnessing. By definition; a witness had to be present and see an event occur in real time. Moses and Elijah were transported forward in time and witnessed Jesus's transfiguration and talked and communicated about something. Question: How did John, Peter and James know that was Moses and Elijah Jesus was talking to? Maybe: 1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Just my current views and thoughts...

[Dennis1209]

35 minutes ago, SONshine said:

@Dennis1209  So.  I assume you wanted to learn more about the two witnesses that appear at the end of this age.  I provided scriptures that reveal who they are.  No comment?  Still holding on to your herMANeutics?  

Morning there SONshine!

My herMANeutics and thoughts on woe-man's are not necessarily correct and maybe some fine print and disclaimers are needed 

I think I previously mentioned it, I still suspect the 'two witnesses' are Moses & Elijah, two people who witnessed the events. I won't dismiss other possibilities such as the two witnesses are two people groups also, as at this time it seems it wouldn't contradict scripture? What was the primary mission of the Apostle's and the primary mission of the church today?

[Buddy D. Mouse]

The plagues they send match Elijah and Moses.

Many early church fathers said Elijah and Enoch, maybe because of a Hebrews 9:27 interpretation - Enoch and Elijah never died.

Then again, there will be a whole generation that will not die - "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"

An Egalitarian approach might have Mary Magdalene and Margaret Macdonald as the 2 witnesses, or Priscilla and Phoebe

 

[Dennis1209]

17 hours ago, SONshine said:

This all transpires very shortly before Jesus returns

Matthew 24:34 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

There's little room for debate on what Jesus was stating here in the context and explanation of this chapter. We all know the fig tree is representative of national Israel, Israel was officially reborn again 'in one day' on May 14, 1948. Because of the years gone by since, we know a generation spoken of here is not 30, 40 or fifty years. There's been so much debate on this subject, on exactly how long a generation is in this context, even to the last person standing in that generation. I think you'll agree the "we" are that generation Jesus was referring to. 

Like no other previous generation, we saw the rebirth of Israel and are witnessing the precursors / shadows of everything prophetic pertaining to the last days leading up to the tribulation. An alliance, buildup, positioning and reasons never before seen in history with the exact countries listed in Ezekiel for the impending Gog-Magog invasion. It's all happening right before our very own eyes right here, right now. 

We're all aware the Lord's word goes into great detail on genealogies and life spans for various reasons and purposes for our understanding and to search out a thing. We're all aware of the 'average' life spans that have drastically changed since the creation of Adam, pre / post antediluvian, etc. I find it intriguing that the last listed average human lifespan for a generation in Ps 90: 10, is 70 -80 years and is a window of time, then we fly away? Doing the math for the generation in Matthew 24: and Psalm 90: 10 raises and interesting ten year period. We can't know the day nor the hour but; we are to watch, be ready and we will know the season. I think we are so very close!

Some personal thoughts: I've wondered what that glorious experience of our bodies being transformed is going to feel like, and not feeling or experiencing the sting of physical death? Hearing the trumpet and shout; we following those asleep in Christ being second; will there be a moment of time to watch and witness the graves exploding and those ascending into the clouds. How joyous, excited and expectant are we going to be on our knees with arms raised up to the Lord in anticipation? Will the thought of our lost family members and loved ones come to mind? Will we be in a position to be ashamed and caught off guard? 

What a glorious day it's going to be, and I get more excited by the day, as we are one day closer to our redemption.