Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.

[Marathoner]

Well done, @JAG**. I'm in agreement for we read in the scriptures that antichrists were already at work in the days of the apostles. The antichrists persist and are with us today. 

[JAG**]

9 hours ago, Michael37 said:

All the verses in the Bible are connected, as are all its God-breathed concepts,

precepts, principles, and doctrines. 

The metaphorical beast from the earth in Revelation 13 fits the description of

antichrist, and as the ultimate and final perpetrator of satanically enhanced

human opposition to God it is reasonable to refer to him in context as the

 antichrist, or just antichrist as Matthew Henry comfortably does without

equivocation.

Given the activities attributed to the final false prophet I have no qualms

about referring to him as the ultimate endtimes antichrist due to the

connections Scripture provides me.

Rev 13:11  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and

he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

All that is just more personal assumptions and more personal interpretive

speculations in lieu of the fact that you do NOT have a Bible Verse that makes

a clear connection between John's antichrists and  any of the following:

■ Daniel 7

■ 2 Thess 2

■ Revelation 13

■ the book of Revelation 

■ Ezekiel 

■ the "false prophet"

■ the "harlot" 

■ the "beast"

■ the "little horn"

■ the "man of sin" {the "man of lawlessness" -- in  2 Thess 2}

 

Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.

The truth is that NOT one {1} single Bible Verse makes that connection -- all of

it is pure interpretative personal speculation without so much as one {1} clear 

Bible-Verse that makes a connection to John's antichrists mentioned in  these 4

instances in John's epistles with that list up there.

1 John 2:18

1 John 2:22

1 John 4:3

2 John 7 

So?

So this truth ought to be known and believed because it is the truth:

There is no  Bible -Verse that makes the connection between John's antichrists

and any of the following

■ Daniel 7

■ 2 Thess 2

■ Revelation 13

■ the book of Revelation 

■ Ezekiel 

■ the "false prophet"

■ the "harlot" 

■ the "beast"

■ the "little horn"

■ the "man of sin" {the "man of lawlessness" -- in  2 Thess 2}

■ or any other parts of the Bible

Again the above is the  truth and the truth needs to be known and believed.

So far the title of my Opening Post stands unrefuted:

Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.

 JAG

Edited August 1, 2020 by JAG**

[douggg]

One question...

Did Dr. Loraine Boettner ever say that the Antichrist concept is rooted in  "the Christ" concept of being the King of Israel ?

[Diaste]

3 minutes ago, JAG** said:

So far the title of my Opening Post stands unrefuted:

Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.

 

 

I just realized this is a fundamentally flawed argument. Tomorrow there will be antichrists. Some will act and some will be born. 1 John 2 says this and you missed it.

"...it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." - 1 John 2:18

John is not saying that only those who deny Christ are 'antichrist'. John begins by affirming the belief of the congregants 'that antichrist shall come'; proof of affirmation in 'and as ye have heard', in no way disputing this belief; and adding that we know it is the last time by the 'many antichrists'.

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed." - 2 Thess 2

Clearly this guy Paul shows us in the above is 'very antichrist' by John's description; "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." because Paul says of the 'man of lawlessness';

"He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thess 2

I don't believe one can be more 'antichrist' than that denying both the Father and the Son, and it is the standard John gives for determining who is 'antichrist'.

 

 

 

[douggg]

19 minutes ago, JAG** said:

So far the title of my Opening Post stands unrefuted:

Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.

 JAG

Just to refute your opening post propositon, the bible verses are 1John2:18,  and John 5:43.

 

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

 

 

In 1John2:18 "the" is implied.   "the antichrist".     Just as "the" is implied in John 4;25, the woman at the well saying....

 

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that [the] Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

The concept of the Antichrist is rooted in the concept of "the" messiah (the Christ) as being the King of Israel.       John 12:13 and Mark 15:32-33.

 

The Antichrist concept is not rooted in any of the other functional roles normally associated  with him, such as the little horn, the beast.    The person is not the Antichrist, when is the little horn, or beast.

 

[JAG**]

8 hours ago, Marathoner said:

Well done, @JAG**. I'm in agreement for we read in the scriptures that antichrists

were already at work in the days of the apostles. The antichrists persist and are

with us today. 

Thank you.

Yeah there sure is  a LARGE number of antichrists in the world today. I can name 6 of them

right now:

{1} Richard Dawkins

{2} Sam Harris

{3} Daniel Dennett 

{4} Matt Dillahunty {all over You Tube with antichrist messages}

{5} Stephen Fry  {see explanation below}

{6} The late Christopher Hitchens {still speaking against Christ through his books and videos}

 

■ Then you can add to that list all the activists thread-atheists that haunt most every forum on the

Internet At Large and there are a HUGE number of them that daily post AGAINST Christ and AGAINST

the Bible and AGAINST the God of the Bible.

 

■ Regarding the atheist Stephen Fry mentioned up there # {5} : Stephen Fry was being interviewed and

he  was asked what if there really is a God? What if when you die you meet God? What would you say

to God? Stephen Fry said he would ask God, "Bone cancer in children, what's that all about, God?" 

The video of all that is on You Tube and it went viral and so many activist thread-atheists do now accuse

the God of the Bible of putting bone cancer in children.

So?

So yes there are MANY antichrists in the world today and there have been many antichrists in the world for

the last 2000 years. In fact any humans that are AGAINST God are  antichrists and in this sense there were

antichrists in the Old Testament also, eg the wicked Jezebel was an antichrist because she was AGAINST God

and to be AGAINST God is to also be against His Christ because the Father , the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One.

 

JAG

 

``

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by JAG**

[JAG**]

17 minutes ago, douggg said:

Just to refute your opening post propositon, the bible verses are 1John2:18,  and John 5:43.

 

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

 

 

In 1John2:18 "the" is implied.   "the antichrist".     Just as "the" is implied in John 4;25, the woman at the well saying....

 

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that [the] Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

The concept of the Antichrist is rooted in the concept of "the" messiah (the Christ) as being the King of Israel.       John 12:13 and Mark 15:32-33.

 

The Antichrist concept is not rooted in any of the other functional roles normally associated  with him, such as the little horn, the beast.    The person is not the Antichrist, when is the little horn, or beast.

 

All the above is nothing  more than your personal assumptions and your

personal interpretative speculations. You have not produced one {1} Bible Verse

that makes the  connection with John's antichrists  , , , ,

1 John 2:18

1 John 2:22

1 John 4:3

2 John 7

 , , , , and this list below:

■ Daniel 7

■ 2 Thess 2

■ Revelation 13

■ the book of Revelation 

■ Ezekiel 

■ the "false prophet"

■ the "harlot" 

■ the "beast"

■ the "little horn"

■ the "man of sin" {the "man of lawlessness" -- in  2 Thess 2}

■ or any other parts of the Bible

Conclusion: There is no Bible-Verse argument for a future antichrist.

JAG

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

On 7/29/2020 at 12:07 PM, JAG** said:

We make bold to say that this picture of Antichrist as a (future) world ruler . . . is pure fiction,

without so much as one clear supporting verse in all Scripture."

There is coming a time of great tribulation unlike anything in the history of the world, yes, even more troubling than the flood.  This is made clear by both Jesus and Daniel in these verses:

• For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:21
• And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time.  Daniel 12:1b

There has not been anything since the time of Jesus that fulfills the above verses.  The great tribulation is still future.  The great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation.

• Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)   .....   For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.   Matthew 24:15,21

Jesus associates the abomination of desolation with the great tribulation.  The abomination of desolation is the one spoken of by Daniel.  Here is a picture of the king who is associated with the future abomination of desolation:

• Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.  Daniel 11:36

There is coming a future time of great tribulation associated with the abomination of desolation that is led by a king who can only be described anti-God / anti-Christ.  Whether he is ever given the title of "The Antichrist" in scripture is a trivial point not worth arguing.  We should all be preparing for the difficult days ahead.

[JAG**]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 

I just realized this is a fundamentally flawed argument. Tomorrow there will be antichrists. Some will act and some will be born. 1 John 2 says this and you missed it.

"...it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." - 1 John 2:18

John is not saying that only those who deny Christ are 'antichrist'. John begins by affirming the belief of the congregants 'that antichrist shall come'; proof of affirmation in 'and as ye have heard', in no way disputing this belief; and adding that we know it is the last time by the 'many antichrists'.

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed." - 2 Thess 2

Clearly this guy Paul shows us in the above is 'very antichrist' by John's description; "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." because Paul says of the 'man of lawlessness';

"He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thess 2

I don't believe one can be more 'antichrist' than that denying both the Father and the Son, and it is the standard John gives for determining who is 'antichrist'.

 

 

 

 As I said there Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.

The antichrists mentioned in John's epistles were in John NEAR FUTURE and NOT

in John's FAR OFF FUTURE. See {1} and {2} and {3} below.

Pure speculation about John's "future" yet to come antichrist is NOT a BIBLE-VERSE
argument because the Biblical text nowhere in John's epistles gives any indication that
John was saying that the antichrist was in John's  FAR OFF FUTURE.

That means that John's antichrist appeared in John's NEAR FUTURE and in fact  John's

epistles clearly support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation.

Evidence to support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation  is the clear statements in John's epistles
that certainly and COMPELLINGLY identify John's antichrists as JOHN'S PRESENT DAY
Christian apostates. John clearly said the following about them, and about his present
time of the first century:

(1) "this is the last hour" (written over 2000 years ago and clearly not a reference to the year 2020)
"this is the last hour" is a clear reference to the time when John wrote that, namely the first century.

(2) "even NOW many antichrists have come." (John's antichrist were there in the first century)

(3) "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us"

In (3) up there John is clearly speaking about his time of the first century and clearly does NOT
have reference to some future time period.

So?

So the Bible is CLEAR that John's antichrists were first century Christian apostates.

So far the title of my Opening Post stands unrefuted:

Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Diaste Wrote:

Start quote.

I just realized this is a fundamentally flawed argument. Tomorrow there will be antichrists. Some will act and some will be born. 1 John 2 says this and you missed it.

"...it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." - 1 John 2:18

John is not saying that only those who deny Christ are 'antichrist'. John begins by affirming the belief of the congregants 'that antichrist shall come'; proof of affirmation in 'and as ye have heard', in no way disputing this belief; and adding that we know it is the last time by the 'many antichrists'.

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed." - 2 Thess 2

Clearly this guy Paul shows us in the above is 'very antichrist' by John's description; "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." because Paul says of the 'man of lawlessness';

"He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thess 2

I don't believe one can be more 'antichrist' than that denying both the Father and the Son, and it is the standard John gives for determining who is 'antichrist'.

End quote.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

 

All the above is nothing  more than your personal assumptions and your

personal interpretative speculations. You have not produced one {1} Bible Verse

that makes the  connection with John's antichrists  , , , ,

1 John 2:18

1 John 2:22

1 John 4:3

2 John 7

 , , , , and this list below:

■ Daniel 7

■ 2 Thess 2

■ Revelation 13

■ the book of Revelation 

■ Ezekiel 

■ the "false prophet"

■ the "harlot" 

■ the "beast"

■ the "little horn"

■ the "man of sin" {the "man of lawlessness" -- in  2 Thess 2}

■ or any other parts of the Bible

Conclusion: There is no Bible-Verse argument for a future antichrist.

JAG

 

 

 

[JAG**]

49 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

There is coming a time of great tribulation unlike anything in the history of the world, yes, even more troubling than the flood.  This is made clear by both Jesus and Daniel in these verses:

• For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:21
• And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time.  Daniel 12:1b

There has not been anything since the time of Jesus that fulfills the above verses.  The great tribulation is still future.  The great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation.

• Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)   .....   For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.   Matthew 24:15,21

Jesus associates the abomination of desolation with the great tribulation.  The abomination of desolation is the one spoken of by Daniel.  Here is a picture of the king who is associated with the future abomination of desolation:

• Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.  Daniel 11:36

There is coming a future time of great tribulation associated with the abomination of desolation that is led by a king who can only be described anti-God / anti-Christ. 

Whether he is ever given the title of "The Antichrist" in scripture is a trivial point not worth arguing. 

 

We should all be preparing for the difficult days ahead.

 

All the above is nothing  more than your personal assumptions and your

personal interpretative speculations. You have not produced one {1} Bible Verse

that makes the  connection with John's antichrists  , , , ,

1 John 2:18

1 John 2:22

1 John 4:3

2 John 7

 , , , , and this list below:

■ Daniel 7

■ 2 Thess 2

■ Revelation 13

■ the book of Revelation 

■ Ezekiel 

■ the "false prophet"

■ the "harlot" 

■ the "beast"

■ the "little horn"

■ the "man of sin" {the "man of lawlessness" -- in  2 Thess 2}

■ or any other parts of the Bible

____________________

 The Bible is  CLEAR that John's antichrists were first century Christian apostates.

So far the title of my Opening Post stands unrefuted:

Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.

___________________

 

 

"Whether he is ever given the title of "The Antichrist"

in scripture is a trivial point not worth arguing."__Last Daze

That is incorrect. That is no more than your personal attempt to dismiss and ignore

the central key crucial all-important word  antichrist, in this debate. You seek to

win by issuing your personal proclamation that the word  "antichrist" is not worth

arguing about ---when THAT is what the debate is ALL ABOUT. Your proclamation is

not to be seriously considered.

You cannot make your "no Bible-Verse connection" problem

go away by merely issuing a personal proclamation that the

word antichrist is "not worth arguing."

__________________

 

You either have a Bible-Verse that makes the connection or you do not have one. My view is

that you do NOT  have one --- because there is NOT one --- not even one {1} Bible verse that

connects John's antichrists with this list below:

■ Daniel 7

■ 2 Thess 2

■ Revelation 13

■ the book of Revelation 

■ Ezekiel 

■ the "false prophet"

■ the "harlot" 

■ the "beast"

■ the "little horn"

■ the "man of sin" {the "man of lawlessness" -- in  2 Thess 2}

■ or any other parts of the Bible

JAG

 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by JAG**