Daniel 11:5

[Charlie744]

11:5. And the KOS (Judaism / Word) shall be strong, and one of His princes (Messiah), and He (Messiah) shall be strong above him and have dominion; his (Messiah) dominion shall be a great dominion.

This is the start of a new interpretation at 11:5.... Would like to hear your thoughts and comments please. Thank you very much!

[Sister]

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

11:5. And the KOS (Judaism / Word) shall be strong, and one of His princes (Messiah), and He (Messiah) shall be strong above him and have dominion; his (Messiah) dominion shall be a great dominion.

This is the start of a new interpretation at 11:5.... Would like to hear your thoughts and comments please. Thank you very much!

 

Hi Charlie

There have been many great dominion's throughout history, and there still is today.  The Messiah does not come out of the King of the south's dominion, because only men and great leaders come out of the dominions of the earth.  Christ will come and establish his own dominion which he has inherited of his Father.

Daniel 11:5 is referring to one of Alexander's four generals who ruled the south after his death.  This general was Ptolemy who ruled over Egypt of the south quarter.  It's of Ptolemy's seed, one of his princes (offspring) that would be greater than him and will rule over the south in the distant future.  In my opinion it could be Saudi Arabia having dominion over the Arab territories of the south.  This particular leader's ancestry is Greek going way way back to the lineage of Ptolomy 1 Soter.  One of Ptolomy's princes of the future having the same royal blood, but not in the power of Greece, or even Egypt.

Daniel 11:5   And the king of the south (Ptolemy 1 Soter) shall be strong, and one of his princes (future, future, future descendant); and he (of his seed) shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion

[Charlie744]

Thank you very much for your prompt response Sister! 

I have provided just the first verse (5), from chapter 11 showing a new interpretation- which is certainly completely different than all others which contend most of 11 is just another history lesson provided by God in the last 2 chapters of one of the important prophetic books of the Bible.

Chapter 11 is not concerned with a minor group of people that have no purpose or importance in His Plan and important prophetic capital - the AE and/ or the Ptolemy folks are part of and within the 3rd kingdom- although at the end. 

The 4th kingdom begins with pagan Rome and where the actors and events must occur and certainly continue with those already revealed to us in the 3 previous chapters- 2, 7 & 8. 

Chater 11 and 12 is an explosion of detail (but it is not written in an historical way since it is truly prophetic and spiritual- not literal interpretation giving us a simple history lesson before His 1st coming.

The actors and events of the 4th kingdom start AFTER the 3rd kingdom of Greece (which includes the 4 territories post Alexander). Verse 11:1 - 4 identify and complete all the discussion of the first 3 kingdoms which were provided in detail in the previous chapters.

Now God wants us to focus on :

1) the 2 iron legs and feet/toes of iron and clay which is pagan Rome. There is no gap or transition between the stomach/thighs and the 2 legs of iron. Further, I’m chapter 7, we should notice that the 3rd kingdom represented by the leopard also includes the 4 wings (4 territories after Alexander). They are not part of the 4th kingdom and not a “transitional” power or entity between the last 2 kingdoms. God has specifically revealed the players and operating characteristics of each of the kingdoms (including beginning and ending points).

Now, regarding the 4th kingdom... it must begin with the 2 legs of iron which is the same power as the beast in chapter 8. Then we find 10 toes in chapter 2 which corresponds to the 10 horns in chapter 7. In chapter 2 we find the stone that will come and destroy the image - this certainly is God Himself coming at the end of time. However, we find His combatant (little horn) in chapter 7. This little horn (papacy), represents the leader, of you will, of the “spiritual “ war that takes place on earth between His 1st and 2nd coming. These actors and events occur in the 4th kingdom only and this is the most important message within Daniel- the period where the Messiah arrives, He is not accepted by His people, He turns to the gentiles, there is the corruption of His covenant and His Word by the papacy. The destruction and damage from His church by the little horn... Chapter 11 & 12 is the most important prophetic message- that being those “things” that will take place during the last 2,000 years and concerns His Plan of Salvation. I have started trying to unpack 11 for the last 7 months and have learned it must not be and can not be a focus on anything other than His Plan (events) between His 2 comings.  I listed just 11:5 to get some responses knowing they will mirror your response- because that is essentially what everyone has accepted. But this one s because everyone has interpreted 11 from an almost historical perspective- many ( but certainly not all of the important verses match up to the historical records of AE or the Ptolemy group). This has been our only approach- look at it in the same manner as the first 3 kingdoms. But the 4th kingdom is quite different and is not a literal view - it is spiritual... God has not identified the name of the kingdom nor the king as He has done for the first 3 kingdoms. Also, please look at much of the very specific terms, phrases and words used within 11 to identify the actors or kind of events - God does not do random, or coincidence, or makes mistakes. He has a purpose for everything and His selection of words- which anyone might agree would have NO place speaking about an unimportant actor like an AE or Ptolemy and the unimportant conflicts occurring between the last 2 kingdoms. Look at the many scriptural type words He uses - Daughter of the KOS, Daughter of women, Branch of her roots, has done what his fathers fathers have not done(twice), establish the vision, and certainly more!  These have no purpose or value unless we try to ignore the spiritual relationship / prophetic messages in 11. These thoughts convey only some of the reasons why I have realized that 11 is prophetic / spiritual and is meant to reveal His Plan of Salvation- and give us an exact and complete understanding of those actors and events that will occur and are relevant to “the beast”, His church, the little horn including the 3 plucked up by the little horn.

Once again, this interpretative approach does NOT end with verse 5, but continues throughout 11. I have not completed 11 as of this writing since it is quite difficult- there are so many “he’s and him’s” in 11 and it is easy to misinterpret each of them .... but one will learn of this should it fail to follow true in later verses.... but this does reveal His story and not a meaningless history of an AE or the Ptolemy period. These are the final 2 chapters of Daniel AND the 4th kingdom—- it MUST not be about Him and those interested in corrupting His covenant, His church and our salvation.  Thanks again Sister and I apologize for the long winded response! 

 

[Sister]

Hi Charlie744

If I had to explain Daniel 11 in short it would be this;

Daniel 11 is showing us that the two major players of the world are the king of the south and the king of the north after Alexanders death.

These two came together to try and work out a deal, but not until the end times will they come together and both speak lies at the same table.  This shows me that they have an agenda and are working together which is what God is really revealing.  Both are using each other and not only telling lies to each other, but are being crafty telling lies to the populations of the world.  Remember what Christ said?  There will be wars and 'rumours of wars'.  To make us afraid, they must spark little fires - to cause fear between the populations of both kingdoms, so that each side will honour their king and do whatever is required of them.  But out of these lies, and the agreement made between the two kings, it backfires, and shows the king of the North is the one with the real power and treads over the king of the south which stirs him up.

In the book of Revelation, at the 6th vial, we are told that the 'kings of the east' cross over into the Euphrates river to battle.  To me, it shows that the King of the South is in charge of the kings of the East who are their allies.

The fourth beast spoken about in Daniel 7 is that king of the North.  It is not acting in the King of the North's power as of old times (old Rome), but is a mixed kingdom of iron and clay, and reformed.  It is after - when these 10 horns receive power that now a real war (not a fake set up one), will emerge.

Many think that it is papal Rome that holds all the power of the king of the North, and that the power comes from the Vatican, but I don't see it that way.  I see the king of the North as Europe and the leaders of those nations standing up against multiculturism wanting to retain their own national identities and going back to their old roots.  All the laws we have today, they will reject and demolish.  This will be the fuel for the fire.  The thing to remember is that God has put it into their hearts (the 10 kings), to despise the current system and laws and strip it naked and burn it with fire.  The populations of the north will stand by this and with their support, it becomes a mighty powerful kingdom trampling on anyone that comes against it.  But they have also been fooled, because their 'cause' will only lead to their own destruction, and every one elses.

Daniel 11 shows us that it is the king of the North who is the dominant force and beast of the end times, and not the king of the South.  Revelation shows us that the kings of the east are controled by the king of the south and that when they stand up against the king of the North's power, they cause some mighty destruction.  All must happen and be fulfilled according to as written.  It's this war that Christ will cut short at his appearing or else no flesh will be saved.  And that's my take of it in a nutshell from what I have observed in scripture, and what is really going on behind the scenes today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

Once again Sisterw  I thank you very much for your time and consideration in answering this and providing your opinion! As you know 11 is a very difficult chapter and has more than a few interpretations. At this time I believe that God has yet to reveal/unseal Daniel and of course Revelation—- the closer we get to His second coming the more He will release our understanding.... regardless, He is coming soon and I am glad you are a strong believer and follower of Jesus. God bless you and yours and I hope we can continue to learn each other’s views in this, Daniel, and other verses... Charlie 

[Revelation Man]

On 8/2/2020 at 12:39 AM, Charlie744 said:

Once again Sisterw  I thank you very much for your time and consideration in answering this and providing your opinion! As you know 11 is a very difficult chapter and has more than a few interpretations. At this time I believe that God has yet to reveal/unseal Daniel and of course Revelation—- the closer we get to His second coming the more He will release our understanding.... regardless, He is coming soon and I am glad you are a strong believer and follower of Jesus. God bless you and yours and I hope we can continue to learn each other’s views in this, Daniel, and other verses... Charlie 

Its hard until you buckle down and put the grunt work in. I got tired a few years ago of not being able to explain this chapter so I put in the tie to do an Exegesis on 11 and 12, afterwards I realized I should have did 10, 11 and 12 together as they are all one DREAM/Vision.

During my studies, God rewarded by with a nice nugget, I now understand the False Prophet had a TYPE also, and he lived at the same time as the Anti-Christ TYPE Antiochus Epiphanes and he bribed Antiochus to become the Jewish High Priest, thereby having his own brother, Onias III, a Pious High Priest killed. His name was "Jason" real name Yeshua, he tried to Hellenize the Jews, leading to the Maccabean Revolt.

So, thee False Prophet will be a Jewish High Priest gone rouge, when the Jews repent BEFORE the DOTL, he will TAKE AWAY the Sacrifice (FORBID Jesus Worship, in the Temple maybe in all Jerusalem) and set up the AoD ( IMAGE of the E.U. President) like Rev. 13 says. 

Daniel 11:5 is about Alexander the Great. 

[Charlie744]

RM, very nice to hear from you! I am fairly certain I have seen this very detailed and well put together thoughts on  11 before. Also, there are many other commentators that contend that v. 5 speaks of the time within the 3rd kingdom- and continues for much of 11! 

As you probably know, I believe that v. starts the beginning of the 4th kingdom and begins to expand on those events and actors found in chapter 7... beast, little horn, 10 horns and the 3 plucked up. Further, it speaks of the coming Messiah and the rejection by the Jews and  how His Covenant will be given to the gentiles but will certainly be corrupted by the little horn. 

It has taken me almost 7 months to see how these verses are meant to reveal the actors and events mentioned above... however, there is still much to uncover and identify all the many pronouns found in 11. 

These very very important prophetic verses in 11 & 12 are not speaking about AE or Ptolemy rulers, etc., of the 3rd kingdom. It would just turn Daniel into one long history lesson that would have no value to our salvation or the “details” of His Plan of Salvation for the entire period between His 1et and 2nd coming.  The book of Daniel is NOT just a history book with neat stories like the metal man image, the furnace and the lion”s den. Daniel moves from 1 to 12 in the same manner as the metal man image - begins with man in control and ends with God”s Kingdom. Chapter 11 takes us from the final man’s kingdom (pagan Rome) through papal Rome and the idolatry and disobedience of the little horn against His covenant / church. 

Look forward to hearing back from you, God bless, Charlie 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

It would just turn Daniel into one long history lesson that would have no value to our salvation or the “details” of His Plan of Salvation for the entire period between His 1st and 2nd coming.

Hi,

Is the above your starting point? 

It looks to me like the strong prince in v 5 is one of the princes of the mighty king in v 3. Dan 11:1-5 is an iteration of Dan 8:8 and 21-22. Are you saying the strong prince in v 5 is one of the princes of the KOTS?

And what leads you to conclude the KOTS is Judaism/Word and not Egypt? From history we know exactly how the prophecy of Dan 8 played out: Ptolemy in the South, Cassander in the West, Antigonus in the North and Seleucid in the east.

Daniel 11:7-8 literally say the descendant of the daughter of the southern king takes the KOTN's stuff to Egypt. Now if that already happened I can't tell, but it certainly seems the KOTS is Egypt.

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond!

 I think there may be just two ways to view 11: either 11.5 speaks about the post Alexander / pre-pagan Rome period or it speaks of post Greek kingdom (which would include the breakup of his kingdom into the 4 territories). 

Further, either 11.5 speaks of historical or secular actors or events, or it speaks of a non literal or spiritual message that is an explosion of detail of the 4th kingdom which must therefore talk about: the beast, the 10 horns, the little horn, the 3 plucked up, the movements from pagan Rome to papal Rome, the transition or activities where His Covenant / Church was hi-jacked (sorry, my feelings) by the little horn from the first Christian Jews, and how the resulting church   corrupted His Word / Church / 10 commandments.

 I hope that answers your question / response... 

Look forward to hearing back from you, best wishes, Charlie 

[Markie51]

This prophecy is not referring to Jesus.  It is referring to one of Alexander's of Greece-after his death-generals: Ptolemy I of Egypt.  The initial "king of the south."