JERUSALEM IS FALLING

[DeighAnn]

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

It was addressed to Jewish converts, not Jewish non-converts. 

No, it was addressed to Hebrews.  

 

31 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Clearly the author of Hebrews is a Christian

Yes, Paul

 

 

31 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The "us" cannot be non-believing Jews who do not believe or accept Jesus as the Son of God.

1Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

1Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

1Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Corinthians 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

 

33 minutes ago, Josheb said:

indicating the author was not someone who heard Jesus teach in the first person but learned the gospel form someone who was an actual witness to Jesus' teachings,

Or maybe got struck down on a road

 

34 minutes ago, Josheb said:

" again indicating this person is is a Christian writing to Christians about Christians. Jews do not see Jesus "crowned with glory and honor," or as having died for all. These are Christian truths. 

but they might

 

35 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Jewish converts to Christ are not Jews. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile; there is only Christ. 

Yeah, I wrote that then erased, feeling it would be demeaning to you to bring up such basics

 

38 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The point of debate here in this tangent is the idea Jesus is coming to save Jews because of Hebrews 9:28. Hebrews was not written to non-Messianic Jews. Any Jew meeting the criteria of the Hebrews text is a believer in Jesus as the Messiah, not a Jew who denies Jesus as Messiah. The book of Hebrews was written by a Christian to Christians about Christians. Even if they were all or majority Jewish converts the book of Hebrews was written by a Jewish-convert-to-Christ to Jewish-converts-to-Christ about Jewish-converts-to-Christ and NOT about to or about non-converts.

Not sure why you are repeating this.  Just because that is what you presently believe, does not make it TRUTH.  What you presently possess in the way of knowledge is well, I don't want to be rude and say something like a FAIL, so I will just say it is severely lacking in depth. 
 a little hint to get you started down the road.  

What position does Hebrews occupy in the MSS 
Codex Sinaiticus Codex Alexandrinus  Codex Vaticanus  Codex Ephraemi

Why would that be?

And who but Paul has ever been put forth?  

Would there be a really good reason for not signing it at the time?

Wouldn't he write in a different style to them?  

You know how I love the scriptures.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Fail. Hebrews 9:28 was not written by Jews (at least not OT unregenerate Jews ). Hebrews 9:28 was not written to Jews. Hebrews 9:28 was not written about Jews. Hebrews 9:28 was written by a Christian to Christians about Christians. 

Please go back and read your post and my previous post to this one.

In the particular part of your post that I responded to, you were criticizing the belief that Jesus comes for the rapture/resurrection and then years later comes for the purpose of judgment (but you did not include physical salvation for the Jews in Jerusalem).    

It appeared as though you disagree with the belief of the rapture/resurrection taking place - and then years later Jesus returning to this earth with the rapture/resurrected saints.  

My comment was that not only does Jesus come (his return to earth) for the purpose of judgment in Zechariah 14, but also for rescue of the Jews in Jerusalem from physical harm as the Jews will escape harm by fleeing through the valley created when Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives.

____________________________________________________________________________

For Christians, Hebrews 9:28, looking for Jesus's coming, it is a referral to rapture/resurrection to happen anytime between now and the beginning of the Day of the Lord when God's wrath will be poured out on the earth.

Regarding Jews, Hebrews 9:28 is information about them, not they are looking for Jesus as Christians are looking for him for the rapture/resurrection, nor reading Hebrews 9:28.     Jews (Judaism) consider the prophecies of Jesus's return as fairy tales at present.    So they are not reading Hebrews 9:28, nor other passages in the New Testament as we are reading them.   And most Jews (Judaism) are not reading the New Testament at all.

But during the great tribulation, after the rapture/resurrection will have already taken place,  the Jews will turn to Jesus and be looking for Him to return to this earth, stand on the Mt. of Olives, from where he left this world, and split it in half so that they escape physical destruction.

The Jews in that day, in Jerusalem, will say at that time blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.    Matthew 23:39.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by douggg

[douggg]

51 minutes ago, Josheb said:

That statement contradicts something you posted in a previous post. It was earlier stated the verse has nothing to do with sin yet both the rapture and the resurrection are directly related to sin and our salvation thereof.

The rapture/resurrection is the redemption of our bodies.    For the living believers at the time, the rapture is also salvation from physical harm.

Salvation from sin is when a person believes on Jesus and him crucified for the atonement of our sins.

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by douggg

[douggg]

54 minutes ago, Josheb said:

That would be incorrect. 

And you've just made the conversation about the poster, not the posts. I'll not collaborate with such dross. 

Please clarify your position.   Do you agree/disagree with the belief of the rapture/resurrection taking place - and then years later Jesus returning to this earth with the rapture/resurrected saints ?  

[douggg]

17 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Cr@p, I wish Josh wouldn't do that. I hate it when he refutes my positions with scripture . 

you are delusional, Josh.      You are quoting passages, not knowing what they mean.

Salvation from sin is about redemption of the soul, which is why we say people are saved, although they don't have their redeemed bodies yet.

redemption of the body is the resurrection if a person is asleep in Christ at the time, or the rapture if a Christian is alive at the the time - to have salvation from physical death that will take place during the beginning of the Day of the Lord when the wrath of God is poured on the world.

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by douggg

[abcdef]

One must decide, if the images that show the destruction of Jerusalem are the 70 AD destruction or a future destruction.

------

Now, consider this,

Preterism says that all of the images are the 70 AD destruction.

Pretrib say that they are all future.

Again the answer lies in between.

Some images are the 70 AD destruction and some are future.

Applying the description to the right time period is essential for understanding the time line.

The main problem has been that the symbolism has been interpreted as literal. That is, the symbols themselves are taken as the entities instead of recognizing what the symbols represent as the entity.

============

Zech 14, 70 AD, The time when the Holy Spirit "living waters" v 8, flow from Jerusalem is Pentecost. Jn 4:9-14,10.

Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21, 70 AD, Jesus did come at the 70 AD destruction. His presence was there. But it wasn't a resurrection coming.

----

Rev 6: 12-17, 70 AD, The day of the Lord against Jerusalem,

Rev 11:7-13, Future (Very soon), The second resurrection unto salvation, Heb 9:28.

--

Rev 12, The good woman Israel in the wilderness of the gentile nations. The woman's time begins with the 70 AD destruction.

-

Rev 14: 14-20, vs. 14-16, The first resurrection of Jesus and the OT saints 33 AD.

vs 17-20, The Wine press is trodden while Israel is "without the city", after the 70 AD destruction.  It is implied here that after Israel returns from the gentile nations and is restored to Jerusalem, that the wine press would no longer be used.

-

Rev 17:3, Since the harlot Israel is shown in the wilderness of the gentile nations, this would show Israel in Roman captivity after the 70 AD destruction.

-

Rev 20, There are only 2 resurrection 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23. The first resurrection is Jesus and the OT saints in 33 AD.

The second resurrection happens just before the fire from heaven. This is future, happening right now, Jerusalem is restored (1967) and surrounded by gentile armies.

The 2nd resurrection shown here is the 2nd coming resurrection for salvation.

Since there is a resurrection, it cannot be the 70 AD destruction.

------------------

Identifying and separating the two helps define the future event, which is here.

Although there are similarities between the two, which makes it harder, they can be defined.

------

[Biblican]

On 1/26/2021 at 9:28 AM, Josheb said:

The posts prove otherwise. Merely alluding to a chapter in a book is not "presenting scripture." What little was provided was handled poorly, eisegetically, not exegetically. 

The problem is you have NOT presented scripture. You have in fact acknowledged the modern state does not bear any resemblance to Biblical Israel. You have not presented a rational case, scripturally or otherwise, how a nation that bears no resemblance can be a restoration when it bears no resemblance! 

It is a country with the name "Israel," but it is not a restoration of Israel. It is at best the restoration of a name. Can't have a Jerusalem fulfilling prophesy if the country in which it exists is not fulfilled prophesy. 

I said that Israel does not have to be "restored" Israel to be present in prophecy. Jesus specifically refers to Jerusalem in Matthew 24 as being in existence prior to His physical return. In His discourse He also refers to the tribulation she will endure, again before His return. Not being a preterist I take Jesus' words at face value without twisting them to suit any man made philosophy.

[Biblican]

23 hours ago, Josheb said:

It does if the attributed "restored" is to be applied. 

I'm gonna give you credit where credit is do. However, and sadly, very little credit is do here. All you have done is mention a couple of books of the Bible and mentioned something completely unrelated to the discussion. None of it in any way proves the position asserts, that modern Israel has a place in prophesy. Some future Israel might have a place in prophesy but that does not mean this Israel does. 

The Israel of Biblical prophesy had a specific character of nature; it possessed specific attributes. That is the Israel being prophesied about. No correlation has yet been proven and the mere mention of a book or chapter is not even evidence, much less proof. 

And as I have already shown the events of Zechariah 14 are tied to the incarnation of the Messiah and the destruction of Jerusalem. These two conditions occurred in the first century and a person does not have to be preterist to acknowledge those facts - those facts of scripture, the facts of Zech. 14, or the facts of history as testified in the NT or as testified in well-established history. Zec. 14 is couched in the Messiah's coming and the destruction of Israel. There is nothing in the entire chapter indicating the 21st century is relevant unless one reads that view into the text.

 

That does not an affirmative case make. 

 

And if all we're going to do is argue over what you believe are competing interpretations and not sound methodical exegesis we can both practice that's not a problem on my end of this non-conversation.

You've twisted Zechariah 14 into something it is not. Jesus has not returned physically, He has never ruled physically from Jerusalem as the text indicates. That will happen when He returns and "Every eye shall see Him" Rev. 1:7, and we shall see Him return as His disciples saw Him ascend (Acts  1:11). The representatives of the nations have never gone up to Jerusalem every year to worship the physically returned Jesus - yet. Your preterist dogma is wrong and I have to say because of its distortion of the holy scriptures I have to classify preterism as a cult. Any doctrine that has been added after the first century that contradicts the scriptures and what the apostles taught must be rejected.

[abcdef]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

THIS IS NOT TRUE! 

You accuse me.

 

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Full-preterists alone believe all the images are the 70 AD destruction. Full-preterism is a minority point of view.

So preterism DOES teach that all the images are the 70 AD destruction.

You accuse me of an untruth,

Then state exactly the same thing as being truth.

You have accused your brother falsely.

 

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Neither I nor anyone else here is a full-preterist. Please do not group us with full-prets.

So you now speak for everyone on this website?

Are you a Mod?

 

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

It is wrong of you to do so; it is fallacious of you to do so.

Again you accuse me of something I have not done.

 

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

The distinctions are so substantive that fulls and partials should never be treated identically.

 

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

I have also said many times: you can disprove preterism and still not prove your own position. It is a red herring.

Not everything is as vague as you want it to be.

You say that you are a partial preterist, then you believe some of what is taught, and do not believe other things that preterism teaches.

(Pure) Preterists say that all prophecy was completely fulfilled by 70 AD. It seems that you might disagree with that.

If you believe that prophecy was not all completed by 70 AD, that would make you a partial futurist, saying that some things were done by 70 AD and some were not.

So now you must decide which things are future to 70 AD.

What things are shown in the Bible, that are future to 70 ad? 

The Bible is about the people of Israel, what happens to the people of Israel after 70 AD? Do they remain scattered forever? Or do they come back together? (These questions are not rhetorical.)

Answer them, or evade them.

 

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

And we're not talking about all images. We're talking about modern Jerusalem and 1967 as relevant to prophesy. 

This is my thread and I'm talking about it. You are not the one to decide what I want to talk about or anyone who wants to say something on this thread. I hope that everyone will be free here to say and talk about what they believe. These are my brothers and sisters.

All images of the destruction of Jerusalem are to be evaluated for content and placement in the time line.

 

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

You have not proved the case. 32 pages of posts is plenty of space to do so.

Apparently, you do not know how prophecy works.

Prophecy is proven true, when it comes true.

Anything before that is by faith, and not by proof.

------

Now I will give you prophecy that is already coming true.

Jerusalem is going to fall to the kings of the east Iran and the gentile nations.

Jerusalem is surrounded.

The WAR of Armageddon has already begun.

The final battle of Armageddon will soon take place.

3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls, the 7th/last trumpet will sound, Jesus will come the second time for salvation Heb 9:28, at the resurrection/rapt, when Jesus comes for the kingdom.

Then this planet will end in fire.

Now, you want me to prove, that this will happen?

Jesus will be the one who proves it to you.

I am only the messenger.

 

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Now I will give you prophecy that is already coming true.

Jerusalem is going to fall to the kings of the east Iran and the gentile nations.

Jerusalem is surrounded.

The WAR of Armageddon has already begun.

The final battle of Armageddon will soon take place.

3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls, the 7th/last trumpet will sound, Jesus will come the second time for salvation Heb 9:28, at the resurrection/rapt, when Jesus comes for the kingdom.

Then this planet will end in fire.

Now, you want me to prove, that this will happen?

Jesus will be the one who proves it to you.

I am only the messenger.

This is a mouthful. Can you show how this is with scripture?

Good luck with that and I don't mean that unkindly. End time events have been taught by a great many a great many ways---all can't be right and yet all can be wrong.

Your statement here, sounds like you are prophesying. Perhaps you aren't, but what will you say when things don't happen as you are predicting?

Perhaps its better to couch these things in different terms--like, I think or maybe or I think maybe and this is why.