The Antichrist's seven year covenant with many

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Nomenclature should be of LEAST concern! It's "nomenclature" that invents LABELS! Look at how Hollywood has abused the term "Armageddon!" Yet, "Armageddon" is simply a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase Har Megiddow, which means the "Mountain of Megiddow." Today, we use the term "Tel Megiddo" for the same "mountain" or "hill."

And, the rest of this is messy. To me, the "Coming" of the Lord is a vertical descent from off-planet. I'm using the word "arrival" for a horizontal transfer from one place to another. I believe that, once the Messiah has returned to earth, He won't leave again. First, it would be too much expenditure of energy for an efficient God, both literally and in the revelation of prophecy. Any such abrupt vertical transfer would have some prophecy attached to the move. And, I believe that God gave us Scripture that supports TWO Comings, His First Coming or His First Advent in 5 to 4 B.C. (at first mistakenly thought to be 1 A.D.), and His Second Coming is His Second Advent which hasn't occurred, yet. There's no such thing as a "Third Coming" in Scripture.

I'm not reading with "preconceptions"; I'm reading with regard to the Scriptures' revelation of TWO "Comings" or TWO Advents. When Yeshua` said,

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

These verses are frequently read with preconceptions! He does NOT say that He's taking us ANYWHERE! All He is saying is that He will receive us to Himself and we will continually be with Him wherever He goes from there! It is a PRECONCEPTION to think that He is saying "He is taking us back to Heaven with Him!" He didn't say that!

Furthermore, He didn't add, "I will come again and again and ...!" He's coming back ONE TIME!

 

That's not what my Bible tells me.

Acts 1:6-11 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

First, it's important that you understand the various words that were translated "heaven" or "heavenly": The main Greek word translated as "heaven" is "ouranos." The word means the "sky." A clear usage of this word is seen in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

It's the SAME GREEK WORD in verse 1, translated "heaven," as in verses 2 and 3, translated "sky!" To a Greek speaking individual, he or she would not notice a difference. Only when translated into English, at the whim of the translator, do we see two different English words in play!

This word "ouranos" has an adjectival form "ouranios," which means "of or related to the sky." 

There's also "ouranothen" formed from "ouranos" that means "from-the-sky" as one word. It's found in Acts 14:17 about the rain and in Acts 26:13 about the light that Paul saw from the sky.

With a different word ending and a prefix "meso" added, The Greek New Testament also has the word "mesouraneema," which means "in the middle of the sky." It's where the birds fly in Revelation 19:17.

Revelation 19:17 (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God...."

Finally, the adjective form "ouranios" had an "epi" prefix, meaning "above" or "upon," added to form "epouranios," meaning "above the sky." This word was used in 1 Corinthians 15:48, 49 for the "heavenly" bodies, such as the sun, moon, and stars. This is talking about space, the area of vacuum that is above the sky or the atmosphere that exists around our planet Earth.

So, when the two men said, "Why stand ye gazing up into heaven?" they were asking the disciples, "Why are you standing here gazing up into the sky?" Then, they said something that was very important: "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (into the sky)."  He went from the ground into the sky until a cloud blocked their view of Him, and they were searching the sky to see if they could see Him as a small dot once He had passed the cloud, much as we do here in Florida when we're watching a rocket going up into the sky.

Thus, He will return in like fashion, just reverse the order: He will descend from above the sky into the earth's atmosphere, come through the clouds, and LAND upon the earth once more. There's no "bounce" in the earth's atmosphere, sending Him, and those who meet Him in the sky, back up above the sky! Such a "bounce" is PURE CONJECTURE on the part of those who tell such a tall tale. Instead, it makes much better sense that we will meet our Lord in the sky and be transferred to the Middle East and then brought back down to the ground with Him. It makes better sense to find horses there! Furthermore, we will be arriving with Him on horses to Har Megiddow.

"Spirit man," really?

Nomenclature should be of LEAST concern!  Before any discussion can get anywhere, there must be an agreement in terms and definitions!

To me, the "Coming" of the Lord is a vertical descent from off-planet.  Good. I agree. Rev. 19 shows this definition of a coming very well: leaving heaven and arriving on earth - to Armageddon. But 1 Thes. 4:16-17  is good also: the Lord departing from heaven but stopping in the clouds which is in the air.  My point is, these are two different comings, first, because of the timing; second, because of their description. 

Any such abrupt vertical transfer would have some prophecy attached to the move.  Just read John 14 as a child would read it. Or read it with the idea of a typical Jewish marriage at the time of Christ. 

There's no such thing as a "Third Coming" in Scripture.  There is no such thing as a "second coming" in Scripture, just as "trinity" is not found in scripture.  However, the IDEA is there: He came once: if He comes again, it will be a SECOND coming. We agree on that. What we disagree on is the TIMING of this second coming.  Paul tells us, but many disregard His timing or just don't believe it: Paul's timing for the rapture is JUST before the start of the Day of the Lord. But then, most people don't believe John on when the Day of the Lord starts. The truth is, IF He comes for His bride and takes them back to heaven, then comes again to Armageddon 7 plus years later, that coming would be His THIRD coming.  Then again, Paul tells us His rapture is a COMFORT to believers!  He did not change his mind in his second letter either: there he tells us the departing must come FIRST, THEN people will see the man of sin revealed and THEN they will know THE DAY has started. 

He does NOT say that He's taking us ANYWHERE!   Not in so many words, but the INTENT is there in this passage. Let a beginning reader read it. "if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself"  Why would Jesus mention preparing a place? There would be NO NEED to mention houses, or abodes or places to live that he has prepared UNLESS He meant to take us there. Some people, due to preconceptions, read it like this:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

That is not the intent of the Author! Only preconceived glasses would cause someone to read it that way. Jesus is copying the typical Jewish wedding; boy meets girl, boy falls for girl, boy asks father for the girl. With father's approval, boy goes to prepare a house for he and the girl to live in. When the house is finished, boy goes to GET  girl. Once GOTTEN, boy and girl don't forget all about the new house and stay with girl's family! NO! Boy  takes  girl to NEW house.

He didn't add, "I will come again and again and ...!"  We have the scriptures He has given us. We are to study these scriptures to show ourselves approved. Many times people WANT the scriptures to say something word for word the way they WANT it. God did not do it that way.  The truth is, God showed us A COMING in 1 Thes. 4. He shows us A COMING in Rev. 19. We have to study and determine by the context of the ENTIRE REST OF END TIME SCRIPTURES if these are both describing ONE coming or TWO DIFFERENT comings. I think there is enough evidence for TWO MORE comings. I am not alone in this belief. 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Acts 1:6-11 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

First, it's important that you understand the various words that were translated "heaven" or "heavenly": The main Greek word translated as "heaven" is "ouranos." The word means the "sky." A clear usage of this word is seen in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

It's the SAME GREEK WORD in verse 1, translated "heaven," as in verses 2 and 3, translated "sky!" To a Greek speaking individual, he or she would not notice a difference. Only when translated into English, at the whim of the translator, do we see two different English words in play!

This word "ouranos" has an adjectival form "ouranios," which means "of or related to the sky." 

There's also "ouranothen" formed from "ouranos" that means "from-the-sky" as one word. It's found in Acts 14:17 about the rain and in Acts 26:13 about the light that Paul saw from the sky.

With a different word ending and a prefix "meso" added, The Greek New Testament also has the word "mesouraneema," which means "in the middle of the sky." It's where the birds fly in Revelation 19:17.

Revelation 19:17 (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God...."

Finally, the adjective form "ouranios" had an "epi" prefix, meaning "above" or "upon," added to form "epouranios," meaning "above the sky." This word was used in 1 Corinthians 15:48, 49 for the "heavenly" bodies, such as the sun, moon, and stars. This is talking about space, the area of vacuum that is above the sky or the atmosphere that exists around our planet Earth.

So, when the two men said, "Why stand ye gazing up into heaven?" they were asking the disciples, "Why are you standing here gazing up into the sky?" Then, they said something that was very important: "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (into the sky)."  He went from the ground into the sky until a cloud blocked their view of Him, and they were searching the sky to see if they could see Him as a small dot once He had passed the cloud, much as we do here in Florida when we're watching a rocket going up into the sky.

Here is Strong's bible usage of this word:

1.  the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it

     A.   the universe, the world

    B.   the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced

     C.  the sidereal or starry heavens

2.  the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

Here are some examples:

Mat 3:2  And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven G3772 is at hand.  (The kingdom of the sky is at hand? I don't think so.)

 Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens G3772 were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (The fact that something was "opened" tells us He was seeing MORE than "sky.")

Mat 5:12  Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: G3772 for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Great is your reward in the sky? I think not.)

Mat 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. G3772  (God sits on a cloud? I think not! Jesus said there are mansions there. If God build homes for us, does it not make sense He has a "home" where His throne is? The truth is, many people have BEEN THERE and seen the throne, and came back to tell us: they all describe it in similar ways. First it is a palace. In the throne room it is HUGE. God's throne is above all.  in short, God does not float on a cloud in the sky. Ouranos has more meaning that sky.)

Mat 5:34  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; G3772 for it is God's throne: (Sweat by the sky? I don't think so.  This verse is very clear: God's throne is in heaven. Not the sky, but some place beyond the sky. )

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Thus, He will return in like fashion, just reverse the order: He will descend from above the sky into the earth's atmosphere, come through the clouds, and LAND upon the earth once more. There's no "bounce" in the earth's atmosphere, sending Him, and those who meet Him in the sky, back up above the sky! Such a "bounce" is PURE CONJECTURE on the part of those who tell such a tall tale. Instead, it makes much better sense that we will meet our Lord in the sky and be transferred to the Middle East and then brought back down to the ground with Him. It makes better sense to find horses there! Furthermore, we will be arriving with Him on horses to Har Megiddow.

"Spirit man," really?

This fits His return when He touches down in the mount of Olives. It says nothing about His coming to the air. It is not conjecture: it is the common sense idea given us in John 14. Some take Him at His word, that He went to prepare HOMES for us as His bride: and one day He will come and take us TO those Homes he has prepared. 

MANY have been to heaven and SEEN the many mansions or palaces. One man said his was HUGE, like the size of the white house, but still small in comparison to others. Several have seen their OWN place, and came back to tell. Some were seeing mansions being built, while later others have been told ALL mansions are complete: heaven is just waiting on the Bride. Of course, due to preconceptions, you will ignore the many, many testimonies of people who have been there. I get that. On the other hand, since I believe God lives on his own planet, called heaven or the heavenly planet, and on that planet the Holy City, and in that Holy City, many mansions plus God's temple, and inside that temple the throne room, and in the throne room, above all else, God's throne. You can deny these testimonies now, but the day could come that you will see with your OWN eyes (Thomas?) and then you will believe. However, you will first have to be accounted worthy to escape what is coming. 

Believers that SKIP OVER Acts 1 and 2, and reject God's mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit seldom become spirit conscious enough to hear their OWN spirit, much less the voice of God. 

The truth is, all believes SHOULD be hearing from their OWN spirit (made perfect and righteous by the Holy Spirit at regeneration), then the voice of Jesus, then the voice of the Holy Spirit, and then the voice of the Father. All are different. But all speak to us. Again, people that don't pray in the Spirit seldom here anything but their own imagination. 

When God the Father speaks, it is VERY authoritative and one is usually and instantly "in the spirit." 
When Jesus speaks, it is authoritative, but different from the Father. EVERY believer should hear Jesus' voice often enough to KNOW it. 
The Holy Spirit speaks to  us also.

[Retrobyter]

On 9/6/2020 at 7:16 AM, Diaste said:

I agree on all points except one;

It's not race, it's spiritual condition. When that spiritual condition aligns with our Father's desires for the spiritual condition of His people, favor; when it doesn't, punishment. God punished His people more than once. Anyone was allowed to be in the camp of the Jews and become a Jew so long as they did become Jews. All the fathers before Jacob were not Jews but found favor in God's eyes through the Spirit. So then favor is conferred though the Spirit and not race.

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands...

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." - Rev 7

Shalom, Diaste.

No, it's not about "spiritual condition," either. It's about FAMILY, in Hebrew, MISHPAACHAAH! Just look at all the references to family and family connections! The first thing one should learn about God's justification of an individual is that one is "born again" into God's family. God sent His only begotten Son to die in our place; so that might be made the children of God through His Sacrifice. Are you seeing the pattern?

John 3:3-8 (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him,

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus saith unto him,

"How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

5 Jesus answered,

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

The "water" here is not talking about one's baptism; it is talking about the fact that when a woman goes into labor, her "water breaks."

1 John 3: (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:1-6 (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

Notice Yeshua`s words here:

John 14:16-24 (KJV)

16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot,

"Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"

23 Jesus answered and said unto him,

"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

And, Paul's words here:

Romans 8:28-34 (KJV)

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Notice Paul's words to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:3- (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 2:1-18 (KJV)

1 And you hath he quickened (brought back to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (brought us back to life) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

So, we have become ONE in the Messiah, in the "Christ!"

Therefore, it's not about being righteous that makes us God's children; it's being God's children that makes us become righteous through the power of the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God! It may seem like a subtle difference to some, but it is FUNDAMENTALLY DISTINCT! One doesn't become righteous in order to become God's child; one becomes God's child in order to become righteous!

How good does one have to be in order to become acceptable to God? The answer is simple: One absolutely CANNOT be good enough to become acceptable to God! One must first come humbly to God as he or she is. THEN, God can step in and make that person, now accepted as His child,  become good in God's sight.

That's the nature of God's justification.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

No, it's not about "spiritual condition," either. It's about FAMILY, in Hebrew, MISHPAACHAAH! Just look at all the references to family and family connections! The first thing one should learn about God's justification of an individual is that one is "born again" into God's family. God sent His only begotten Son to die in our place; so that might be made the children of God through His Sacrifice. Are you seeing the pattern?

John 3:3-8 (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him,

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus saith unto him,

"How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

5 Jesus answered,

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

The "water" here is not talking about one's baptism; it is talking about the fact that when a woman goes into labor, her "water breaks."

1 John 3: (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:1-6 (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

Notice Yeshua`s words here:

John 14:16-24 (KJV)

16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot,

"Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"

23 Jesus answered and said unto him,

"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

And, Paul's words here:

Romans 8:28-34 (KJV)

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Notice Paul's words to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:3- (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 2:1-18 (KJV)

1 And you hath he quickened (brought back to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (brought us back to life) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

So, we have become ONE in the Messiah, in the "Christ!"

Therefore, it's not about being righteous that makes us God's children; it's being God's children that makes us become righteous through the power of the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God! It may seem like a subtle difference to some, but it is FUNDAMENTALLY DISTINCT! One doesn't become righteous in order to become God's child; one becomes God's child in order to become righteous!

How good does one have to be in order to become acceptable to God? The answer is simple: One absolutely CANNOT be good enough to become acceptable to God! One must first come humbly to God as he or she is. THEN, God can step in and make that person, now accepted as His child,  become good in God's sight.

That's the nature of God's justification.

Is it race? Hmmm...

Is it family? Hmmm...

Maybe it's education.

 

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Is it race? Hmmm...

Is it family? Hmmm...

Maybe it's education.

Shalom, Diaste.

Every now and again, someone will react to something I've said or say something that makes me worry for him or her. As I said above, one who is a true believer should KNOW that one's "salvation" (or rather, God's JUSTIFICATION of that individual) cannot be earned. It must be GIVEN by God to that individual! And, God only gives one His justification when he or she comes humbly and contritely to Him and asks for His intervention. Anyone who is trying to EARN his or her way into God's favor, does NOT have God's justification, yet, and is still lost, because one can NEVER do enough to earn his or her way into God's favor.

This is (or at least, SHOULD be) Christianity 101! Here's how Yeshua` ("Jesus") put it:

Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee ("Paruwsh" Hebrew for a self-righteous "Separatist") stood and prayed thus with himself,

" 'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 "And the publican (a hated and despised tax-collector), standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

" 'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

YHWH God said,

Isaiah 66:1-2 (KJV)

1 Thus saith the LORD,

"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been," saith the LORD: "but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

Micah said,

Micah 6:6-8 (KJV)

6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but ...
(1) to do justly, and ...
(2) to love mercy, and ...
(3) to walk humbly with thy God?

So, maybe there IS some "education" involved!

Edited September 8, 2020 by Retrobyter
just to add a thought

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Every now and again, someone will react to something I've said or say something that makes me worry for him or her. As I said above, one who is a true believer should KNOW that one's "salvation" (or rather, God's JUSTIFICATION of that individual) cannot be earned. It must be GIVEN by God to that individual! And, God only gives one His justification when he or she comes humbly and contritely to Him and asks for His intervention. Anyone who is trying to EARN his or her way into God's favor, does NOT have God's justification, yet, and is still lost, because one can NEVER do enough to earn his or her way into God's favor.

This is (or at least, SHOULD be) Christianity 101! Here's how Yeshua` ("Jesus") put it:

Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee ("Paruwsh" Hebrew for a self-righteous "Separatist") stood and prayed thus with himself,

" 'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 "And the publican (a hated and despised tax-collector), standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

" 'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

YHWH God said,

Isaiah 66:1-2 (KJV)

1 Thus saith the LORD,

"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been," saith the LORD: "but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

Micah said,

Micah 6:6-8 (KJV)

6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but ...
(1) to do justly, and ...
(2) to love mercy, and ...
(3) to walk humbly with thy God?

So, maybe there IS some "education" involved!

This has my full support and agreement. I was not making a point that had anything to with salvation or how it is achieved or the nature of salvation. My point was it's not about anything other than a spiritual condition, either that of evil or righteousness. It's not about race, gender, position, wealth, religion, age or any other discriminatory label. It's about the Spirit of God imbued in the individual. That is the one and only standard and the only way in which righteousness is achieved. "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness."  Faith that leads to belief originates with our Father. 

" For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,  not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2

“To those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” - 2 Peter 1

“Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith.” - Hebrews 12

It all comes from God and Jesus and we do not have any of it ourselves. It is a spiritual enlightenment manifest in us showing us truth, giving knowledge and wisdom that leads to understanding.

And that faith and grace and belief all come from our Lord Jesus Christ without respect of persons.

So I reject any other position that isn't the above as it's love for the whole world in God given Spirit and Truth.

[Retrobyter]

On 9/7/2020 at 10:41 AM, iamlamad said:

Nomenclature should be of LEAST concern!  Before any discussion can get anywhere, there must be an agreement in terms and definitions!

Shalom, iamlamad.

True, but while there must be agreement in terms, I'm going to be hard to placate about definitions. First, I prefer terms that don't degenerate into LABELS for various events and periods. Various words were used BECAUSE of their meanings within the given context, and they were NOT intended just to name the event or period.

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To me, the "Coming" of the Lord is a vertical descent from off-planet.  Good. I agree. Rev. 19 shows this definition of a coming very well: leaving heaven and arriving on earth - to Armageddon. But 1 Thes. 4:16-17  is good also: the Lord departing from heaven but stopping in the clouds which is in the air.  My point is, these are two different comings, first, because of the timing; second, because of their description. 

Starting already? First, I don't think of Revelation 19 as being the "Second Coming" (as opposed to the "Rapture"), although I was taught such when I was young. Instead, I see Revelation 11, the Seventh Trumpet, as being an important component of the Second Coming. Look at the two passages again:

Revelation 19:1-20:3 (KJV)

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven (the loud voice of many people in the sky), saying,

"Alleluia (Greek transliteration of 'Halleluyah'); Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

3 And again they said, "Alleluia!" 

And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying,

"Amen; Alleluia!"

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying,

"Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great!"

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,

"Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me,

"Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb!" 

And he saith unto me,

"These are the true sayings of God."

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me,

"See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy!"

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called "Faithful" and "True," and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "The Word of God." 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great!"

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is "the Devil," and "Satan," and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This involves riding on white horses, which would not be able to move successfully in the sky. Either they would have to be "Pegasus's" with wings, or they would have to be touching ground somewhere. I think of them as the riders of Rohan (in the Lord of the Rings) coming over the hill with Gandalf in the lead upon Shadowfax, high above the enemy orcs in the valley below. Earlier, we read in chapter 11:

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great (loud) voices in heaven (in the sky), saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (God the Father), and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he (God the Father) shall reign for ever and ever!" 

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken (Greek: eileefas, perfect indicative active = "you have taken") to thee thy great power, and hast reigned (Greek: ebasileusas, aorist indicative active = "have begun to reign")! 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth!"

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (was broken open by the sky), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Thus, God the Father, as of this trumpet, has begun to reign over the kingdoms of this world-system, and, yes, there was a "knee-jerk reaction" of rebellion, but it is quelled by chapter 19.

It is VITAL that we understand the difference between the "sky" (Greek: ouranos) and areas "ABOVE the sky" (Greek: epouranios). Not always do the Scriptures use the word "epouranios," as Paul did in 1 Corinthians 15; however, the language may still suggest things above the sky, such as the sun, the moon, and/or the stars (which include "falling stars" or "meteors," "fallen stars" or "meteorites," whether they come from comets or asteroids, which would still be lumped in the term "stars").

Therefore, I see Him actually Coming back to this earth PRIOR to the Kingdom beginning in chapter 11!

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Any such abrupt vertical transfer would have some prophecy attached to the move.  Just read John 14 as a child would read it. Or read it with the idea of a typical Jewish marriage at the time of Christ. 

No, a child who has never been taught what you propose and who has never been exposed to such teaching before wouldn't make such a bold mistake! John 14 doesn't say Yeshua` takes His disciples ANYWHERE! (I'll come back to this below.)

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There's no such thing as a "Third Coming" in Scripture.  There is no such thing as a "second coming" in Scripture, just as "trinity" is not found in scripture.  However, the IDEA is there: He came once: if He comes again, it will be a SECOND coming. We agree on that. What we disagree on is the TIMING of this second coming.  Paul tells us, but many disregard His timing or just don't believe it: Paul's timing for the rapture is JUST before the start of the Day of the Lord. But then, most people don't believe John on when the Day of the Lord starts. The truth is, IF He comes for His bride and takes them back to heaven, then comes again to Armageddon 7 plus years later, that coming would be His THIRD coming.  Then again, Paul tells us His rapture is a COMFORT to believers!  He did not change his mind in his second letter either: there he tells us the departing must come FIRST, THEN people will see the man of sin revealed and THEN they will know THE DAY has started. 

Actually, the SECOND Coming is said quite often. When He says, "I will come again," that implies to us a "Second Coming" is going to happen. He came the first time as haMashiyach ben Yosef, "the Messiah Son of Joseph" (the "Joseph" of Genesis), the SUFFERING AND DYING Messiah, and told John that He would be coming back a second time as haMashiyach ben David, "the Messiah Son of David," the RESCUING AND REIGNING Messiah! There's no "third instance" implied ANYWHERE (except in your teaching)! When He returns, He SHALL begin His rescue of His people and the deliverance of His Land! When His people are safe, He will once again offer to them the Kingdom of God - God's Kingdom as David knew it - and begin His reign which shall NEVER END!

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He does NOT say that He's taking us ANYWHERE!   Not in so many words, but the INTENT is there in this passage. Let a beginning reader read it. "if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself"  Why would Jesus mention preparing a place? There would be NO NEED to mention houses, or abodes or places to live that he has prepared UNLESS He meant to take us there. Some people, due to preconceptions, read it like this:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

That is not the intent of the Author! Only preconceived glasses would cause someone to read it that way.

Actually, it's more like this:

2 In my Father's house [in the New Jerusalem currently above the sky] are many mansions [rooms, compartments]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [the New Jerusalem to] prepare a place for you, [too, in my Father's house, the New Jerusalem]. 3 And, if I go and prepare a place for you [in the New Jerusalem], I will come again [to the earth] and receive you unto myself [on the earth in the Land]; that where I am [on earth in the Land], there [in the Land] ye may be also [and we'll never be separated again].

His point was NOT to say He was bringing them, or anyone, to His Father's house! His point was to say, "Yes, we'll be separated for a while, but we'll be together again before you know it!" He was letting them know that He would be busy, thinking of them (and us), while away! The more He builds rooms for His disciples, the more disciples He gains! The more disciples He gains, the more rooms He has to build! He's been away for 1,990 years now, and He's STILL not finished! He won't be finished until His Father sends Him back! The New Jerusalem will be sent, as well, but it won't arrive until a thousand years after Yeshua` has begun His reign.

The New Jerusalem is said by John in Revelation 21:16 to be 12,000 "furlongs" long (Greek: stadioon doodeka chiliadoon = "twelve thousand stades"), wide, and high when it descends to earth. The "furlong" in the Greek is the word "stadion" and comes from the Roman stade, which we now know to be 607.142222... feet long. Thus, 12,000 stades would be 1,379 miles, 4,586 feet, 8 inches long! That's 42 miles longer than from Clearwater, Florida, to Augusta, Maine, as the crow flies! This one, three-dimensional city is COLOSSAL!

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Jesus is copying the typical Jewish wedding; boy meets girl, boy falls for girl, boy asks father for the girl. With father's approval, boy goes to prepare a house for he and the girl to live in. When the house is finished, boy goes to GET girl. Once GOTTEN, boy and girl don't forget all about the new house and stay with girl's family! NO! Boy takes girl to NEW house.

Well, the "NEW house" isn't here, yet! Although it's coming, it won't arrive until AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment! So, for now, Yeshua` will just have to settle for a "honeymoon suite" in old Jerusalem.

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He didn't add, "I will come again and again and ...!"  We have the scriptures He has given us. We are to study these scriptures to show ourselves approved. Many times people WANT the scriptures to say something word for word the way they WANT it. God did not do it that way.  The truth is, God showed us A COMING in 1 Thes. 4. He shows us A COMING in Rev. 19. We have to study and determine by the context of the ENTIRE REST OF END TIME SCRIPTURES if these are both describing ONE coming or TWO DIFFERENT comings. I think there is enough evidence for TWO MORE comings. I am not alone in this belief. 

Of course you're not alone in your belief; however, neither am I.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Retrobyter
to correct auto-correct on Maine!

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

This has my full support and agreement. I was not making a point that had anything to with salvation or how it is achieved or the nature of salvation. My point was it's not about anything other than a spiritual condition, either that of evil or righteousness. It's not about race, gender, position, wealth, religion, age or any other discriminatory label. It's about the Spirit of God imbued in the individual. That is the one and only standard and the only way in which righteousness is achieved. "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness."  Faith that leads to belief originates with our Father. 

" For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,  not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2

“To those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” - 2 Peter 1

“Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith.” - Hebrews 12

It all comes from God and Jesus and we do not have any of it ourselves. It is a spiritual enlightenment manifest in us showing us truth, giving knowledge and wisdom that leads to understanding.

And that faith and grace and belief all come from our Lord Jesus Christ without respect of persons.

So I reject any other position that isn't the above as it's love for the whole world in God given Spirit and Truth.

Shalom, Diaste.

I believe all this, too; however, you've got to come to terms with the fact that "discrimination" is NOT the "dirty word" that our media and politically correct society likes to paint it! Rest assured that GOD HIMSELF discriminates and justly so!

Equality and fairness is not as good as one might think in our social ways of thinking. Justice and righteousness are FAR better! It's like in the parable of the laborers sent into the field:

Matthew 20:1-16 (KJV)

1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny (denarius) a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 

3 "And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 And said unto them; 'Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you.' And they went their way. 

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 

6And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, 'Why stand ye here all the day idle?' 7 They say unto him, 'Because no man hath hired us.' He saith unto them, 'Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.'

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, 'Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.' 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12 Saying, 'These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day!' 13 But he answered one of them, and said, 'Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?' 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

These workers were grumbling and complaining that the land-owner wasn't being FAIR! He wasn't being EQUITABLE! They were right! He wasn't ... BUT, THAT'S OKAY!

Yeshua` made the point quite well that it was the land-owner's money to do with as he pleased! The first laborers were contracted for a denarius for the day, and that's PRECISELY what they received! Just because the last laborers were given the same amount didn't directly have ANYTHING to do with the first laborers! He just chose to be generous to the last laborers. That was HIS prerogative! He didn't have to be FAIR or EQUITABLE! Instead, he was JUST and GENEROUS!

Now, the additional information I get from this parable is this: Having done this kind of day labor work, the "many [are] called but few [are] chosen" part means that those who grumbled and complained didn't get hired again the next time the land-owner needed help. Those few who did not grumble or complain were not only hired again, but may have been hired on full time as permanent workers with benefits, never to be unemployed again!

Don't think that this land-owner whom Yeshua` was talking about (nor wise Yeshua` Himself) didn't discriminate! He LISTENED to the complaints and grumbling and discriminated AGAINST those individuals!

When all things are equal, God and His Messiah Yeshua` will be FAIR and EQUITABLE. HOWEVER, when things are based upon the character of the individuals who are SELDOM equal in character, He will do what is JUST and HAVE FAVORITES; others He will choose to IGNORE! That's HIS business and HIS prerogative! And, there's NOTHING you or I can do about it, and it would be wise if we also have nothing to SAY about it!

[Charlie744]

There must be a million valuable lessons we could take from this neat parable.

 The one that resonates with me is that God will bring into heaven one who has done His work for his entire life AND one who finds Him at the 11th hour of his life. 

Unfortunately, I have seen those Christians who are “more” saved than others due to their church pedigree-similar in thought to those early Americans who can trace their family to the Mayflower... 

Thanks, Charlie