The Antichrist's seven year covenant with many

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I imagine no such thing. Scripture is explicit. Paul and Peter are speaking to believers in Jesus, believers in Jesus of all races. No such thing as Jew or Greek as all are one in Christ. But pretrib has a racist bent, is prejudicial and arrogant. "We're better than everyone else. They have to suffer, not us." Ludicrous.

Shabbat shalom, Diaste.

I hope you are having a good Shabbat ("Sabbath")!

While it is true that there's "No such thing as Jew or Greek as all are one in Christ," no such thing has been said about those OUTSIDE of the Messiah, the Christ! It's not just two groups either way, not "Jew vs. Greek," not "Christian vs. unbeliever." We have at least THREE groups: "Believers within the Messiah, Jews outside of the Messiah, and Gentiles outside of the Messiah."

Furthermore, the word "holy" doesn't mean "righteous." It means "cleansed" and "set apart" for some service to God.

"To be made holy" (Old English, hālig, from Germanic origins) is the same as "to be consecrated" (Latin: con + sacrare, "dedicated or devoted as sacred") or "to be sanctified" (Latin: sanctificare from sanctum). The two root words simply come from two different languages. Even the word "saint" comes through Old French seint from the Latin sanctum.

So, a "holy one" is a "saint" is a "sanctified one" is "one who is set apart," and may have been "ritually cleansed" to be "set apart." The Jews, for instance, are NOT "righteous" by any stretch of the imagination. However, they ARE "sanctified," that is, they are "set apart" as a special people for God's own reasons. They are Yeshua`s natural family! Is that "racial?" YOU BET! And, there's NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! I'd prefer that it be called "familial" rather than "racial" because there's really only ONE race - the HUMAN race!

Today, we hear so much crying against racism and prejudice that we think they must really be evil. HOWEVER, God DID favor the Jews above every other tribe of men! And, the Scriptures in the prophecies STILL favor the Jews! That's not "evil"; that's GOD'S business! And, He is ALWAYS righteous! If someone doesn't like that about God, he or she should take it up with God! And, I'd say to him or her, "Good luck with that!"

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

...

No it does not. This is just more pretrib lies. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah was neither Christian or Jew. Neither was Abraham. The 'dispensation of grace' is just a pretrib fantasy used to dupe the masses, and it works.

"I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness."

Pretrib elevates themselves above this. Imagine that, Jesus in the wilderness with the Jews. I guess that must have been a different Christ. Another Spirit. Pretribbers have a better, higher spirit. 'Christians' will never be struck down by God because they are just better.

Pretrib says:

"Christians do not suffer wrath because God does not appoint Christians to wrath."

"We are Christians so we don't endure wrath."

"The 70th week is wrath."

"Therefore we are taken out before the 70th week begins."

Unless you have to fix a glitch in the doctrine, that is. "Some may well be people God loves, but had to leave behind because they were "Christian" but not born again"

And, "And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

According to pretrib great tribulation is wrath. Yet here we have what can only be Christians with blood washed robes standing about the throne. Clearly these are post trib people of every people group. Believers. That went through wrath. Which pretrib says is impossible. Something is rotten in the doctrine.

What?? Believers who are not born again? I think pretrib would fit in nicely with the Jim Crow south of the 40's and 50's. Pretrib just loves it's segregation.

How is it a believer is in the wrath of God when the scripture says, "For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." and is the foundation of pretrib nonsense?

Shaming and manipulation. I'm not afraid as the Lord is looking out for me. You are terrified along with the pretrib camp. And you should be. You're not prepared and you are not keeping the word  of His patience.

"Wrath" is simply "extreme anger, rage." The differentiation comes from the SOURCE of that anger or wrath! Is it GOD'S anger or is it the anger from some other person or power? When the Scriptures talk about "God does not appoint Christians to wrath," they are talking about GOD'S wrath! There's absolutely NO guarantee that Christians won't suffer the wrath of OTHERS, such as that of the Beast!

[Retrobyter]

34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

the "Rapture" didn't occur 7 years prior to His Coming but AT His Coming!  How strange you wrote this in the past tense! It will be a future event. And certainly the rapture will be a "coming." Paul used that very word in 1 Thes. 4.

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Yeah, I have the tendancy to write from a certain viewpoint sometimes. In the above case, I was writing as though FROM His Coming, looking backward. The rapture is NOT a "coming" but will OCCUR at His Coming, hence the word is used in 1 Thess. 4!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Why do you feel you must separate the rapture from the Second Coming? This passage tells me that they happen AT THE SAME TIME!

34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 What you are missing is that coming in 1 thes. 4 WILL BE over 7 years from His coming to Armageddon.

Really? How do you figure this? And, don't say the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet, and the 7th vial (7-7-7)! That's circular reasoning! You can't say that "the 7-year trib is seen in the 7-7-7" and then say "the 7-7-7 is seen in the 7-year trib!

So, how - independently - do you know that the 1-Thes-4 coming will be 7+ years before His arrival at Har Megiddow?

34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It puzzles me why SO MANY want to stay behind and live through both God's wrath and Satan's wrath, as if they were being forced into it - when the truth is, God has an escape planned. The "reason" for the rapture is that God will begin the Day of His wrath (6th seal) and will NOT allow His children to suffer His wrath - so He will remove us.

We know that God will not send HIS wrath upon us, but we really don't have any promise that He will not allow us to suffer in the wrath of an enemy. Nobody "WANTS" to "stay behind and live through wrath," but we may be called to do so. As far as God's Wrath is concerned, He will protect us through it, just as He did for the children of Israel in Egypt during the plagues that fell on the Egyptians. However, there may be a time when one will be called upon to suffer as did his or her Lord, and don't forget, there will be many who are beheaded during the oppression by the Beast. And, God will AVENGE all who so suffer!

34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I agree with you on the passage in Jude. I looked it up. I did not know before that. Thanks. 

I have often wondered about Isaiah 63:3: He comes with armies but fights in Bozrah alone.  We will know when it happens!

Regarding Isaiah 63:3, I believe that Yeshua` at first comes and fights alone in Baatsrah because of the URGENCY and the PASSION He feels for His people who will be suffering at their hands. He will be FASTER than we will be, and He's not waiting around! But, in the battle to come, there will be an arrival to that region where He will come WITH His armies. His setting foot upon Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) is not His FIRST arrival! Think about it: Har haZeitiym is just outside Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) but we are told this in Zechariah:

Zechariah 12:7-9 (KJV)

 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

So, there's a progression of rescue that will happen as Yeshua`, YHWH'S "Strong Right Arm," fights for His people. Even before He rescues Yerushalayim, He will rescue those who are in Yhudah (the Jews) first, reaching as far as Baatsrah in Edowm out in the Negev. After He frees those captive in Yerushalayim, He will then chase His enemies over the mountains of Israel (the West Bank) and on north to the Plain of Yisr`e'l under the watchtower, Tel Megiddo or Har Megiddow, where they will think they can regroup and fight back. And, we know how THAT will go!

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Why do you feel you must separate the rapture from the Second Coming? This passage tells me that they happen AT THE SAME TIME!

Really? How do you figure this? And, don't say the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet, and the 7th vial (7-7-7)! That's circular reasoning! You can't say that "the 7-year trib is seen in the 7-7-7" and then say "the 7-7-7 is seen in the 7-year trib!

So, how - independently - do you know that the 1-Thes-4 coming will be 7+ years before His arrival at Har Megiddow?

Please use a different nomenclature  - such as His coming to Armageddon. You see, if indeed He comes next FOR His bride, then again 7 + years later WITH His bride, then His coming FOR His church would be His "second coming," and His coming WITH His bride would be His THIRD coming.  ( I can at least count to three!) 

I like to say His coming as shown in 1 thes 4, vs. His coming to Armageddon.  No one should misunderstand. 

This passage tells me that they happen AT THE SAME TIME!  Please explain this part. I HIGHLY suspect reading with preconceptions here. 

Why separate one coming from another? Very simple: the bible does it, not me. One coming is to the clouds and He remains hidden in the clouds - while another coming is when "every eye will see." How can these be compared? In one coming, He comes with the spirits of the deceased in Christ - while at the other coming, He comes with the armies of heaven: I see a huge difference here. Then there is John 14. It MUST take place sometime: it seems to fit perfectly with His 1 Thes. 4 coming. 

Really? How do you figure this?  It's really very simple: when we study 1 Thes. 5, we see that Paul's rapture comes just before wrath- I believe it will be the trigger for wrath. Where does the Day of His wrath begin? At the 6th seal (before the 7th seal). Where in Revelation is the great crowd too large to number? Just AFTER the 6th seal (the raptured church in heaven). Since we have no appointments with His wrath, written IN the rapture passage, it is logical that the rapture takes place BEFORE wrath. Since John 14 shows Jesus taking people back to the homes prepared, and since in Rev. 19 the church is already in heaven before Christ descends, all ready for the marriage and supper, again it is logical that all those at the marriage must have arrived in heaven sometime BEFORE chapter 19. The strongest argument is Paul himself: mentioning the Day of the Lord, and then God's wrath in His rapture passage. I am convinced, it will be GRACE -> WRATH, no time between. 

Paul gives us a paradigm, bringing up two groups of people to show us how each gets different results: those IN CHRIST get raptured, and so get to live together with Him, while the other group - those left behind -  at the same moment in time get sudden destruction. Just what IS this sudden destruction? When God raises the dead in Christ, that resurrection is going to cause a worldwide earthquake, as God brings together the "dust" that once made up those bodies. Considering just one body out of perhaps billions, the "dust" that once made up that one body could well be scattered over miles or hundreds of miles, and some of the dust could be a hundred feet deep. But in a split second God will bring that dust together. That is going to cause a great earthquake. 

How amazing then that the first event of the start of the Day of His wrath is a great earthquake.  I am convinced, Paul's rapture will CAUSE that earthquake. It will be Paul's sudden destruction. It is the start of Wrath, and it is an earthquake: two events that fit hand in glove with Paul's rapture. 

Since much of Revelation is the 70th week (chapter 8 to 16) and since Jesus spends all that time in heaven, it makes good sense that the saints will spend that time in heaven: "SO shall we ever be with the Lord." 

Note, I did not write "7th seal," "7th trumpet" or "7th vial." John wrote that - and wrote in such a manner that these events cannot possibly be overlaid. Rather, they are sequential and the trumpets and vials take up the 70th week. 

You see, we have to put all this together. First Daniel tells us of the 7 years, and confirms it by half being 3.5 years. Then John confirms it 5 more times. 

One day as I was reading Daniel 9, verse 27, just minding my own business, when my eyes and my mind got to the word “midst” sudden God spoke to me in what seemed like an audible voice: “You could find that exact midpoint ‘clearly marked’ in the book of Revelation.” I was not asleep, and I was not dreaming. I was very much awake and alert. I did not have pizza the night before. I recognized the voice of My Lord. 

I was dumbfounded, and could not speak, but my spirit man immediately spoke and ask “How would I find that?”

He answered, “Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 years of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint.” Then, almost as an afterthought, he concluded: “In fact, you could find the entire 70th week ‘clearly marked.’”

Is there in fact, mentions of a 3 1/2 year period of time in Revelation? You know there are: 5 different mentions. Do they begin at or near the midpoint? CHECK!

Do they run to the end of the week? CHECK!

In the end, I HAVE to believe my Lord. 

 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

We know that God will not send HIS wrath upon us, but we really don't have any promise that He will not allow us to suffer in the wrath of an enemy. Nobody "WANTS" to "stay behind and live through wrath," but we may be called to do so. As far as God's Wrath is concerned, He will protect us through it, just as He did for the children of Israel in Egypt during the plagues that fell on the Egyptians. However, there may be a time when one will be called upon to suffer as did his or her Lord, and don't forget, there will be many who are beheaded during the oppression by the Beast. And, God will AVENGE all who so suffer!

He will protect us through it [Wrath]...  Now that we have your theory, what does the WORD say about this special time of Great tribulation Jesus spoke of?

Rev, 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

Dan. 7: 21  I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

I cannot find a verse that suggests what you suggest. For this specific period of time, these two verses seem to be the ONLY verses saints can have faith in. 

we really don't have any promise that He will not allow us to suffer in the wrath of an enemy  Again I would have to disagree. A good understanding of John's chronology in Revelation would help here. When one understands, they find God's wrath covers the entire 70th week. Satan's wrath only the last half of the week. But when Satan is cast down (midpoint) and is VERY angry, and begins taking that angry out by murdering the saints, when his wrath it at its peak, God then pours out the vials of his wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. The truth then, it is impossible to separate God's wrath and Satan's wrath during the last half of the week - as far as timing -  because they happen together.  During the first half of the week in the trumpet judgments, it is God's wrath. 

When we understand Paul and the timing he gives us for the rapture, it is before the start of God's wrath, so we we are then exempt from either God's wrath or Satan's wrath.  When God allows a nuclear war (trumpets 1 to 3 ?) Saints and sinners alike will suffer and/or die. When God turns the sea into blood, saints and sinners alike will suffer. That is why God's plan is an escape plan as Luke 21 shows us:

36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This promise is found in Jesus' Olivet discourse. If we merge them (I think He gave ONE discourse) then what we escape would be found not only in Luke 21 but also in Matthew 24. I think Luke just used some different words to describe the same period of time - the days of GT.  Luke did say, "all these things." A few verses before, Luke wrote, :This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled"  "All then would include the days of God's wrath, Satan's wrath, and GT.  The verse before that Luke wrote, "when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."  He is therefore talking about all those things that happen just before the Millennial Kingdom, which would include the time of God's wrath. 

Therefore I must disagree that we don't have any promise. I say we do. 

Therefore, for those that want to stay behind, don't count on God protecting you through His wrath. The truth, with scripture to prove it, is that you WILL BE overcome. Why be overcome when you can escape? Could it be that part of being WORTHY to escape all these things is to BELIEVE you can escape?

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, luigi said:

Many words in Job were those by his friends, and it was pointed out that they were false, having their origin from the enemy. There are many other such instances where what something false from someone is pointed out as such.

Thanks to Retro, I looked up the Greek behind "ten thousands:"

1. ten thousand

2. an innumerable multitude, an unlimited number

3. innumerable hosts

ten thousand times ten thousand (2x), two hundred thousand thousand (with G1417) (2x), innumerable multitude (1x), ten thousand (1x), innumerable company (1x), fifty thousand (with G3902) (1x), thousands (1x).

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, luigi said:

Where is the he goat with the notable horn/military who traverses the whole earth from the West without touching the ground? It's a notable air force in the end times who destroys Persia/Iran? CONTEXT.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 

How Strange: you take Alexander as a goat - symbolism - and the ram as Darius - symbolism - but then insist the Alexander did not touch the ground.  The truth is, his army MARCHED, on the ground, but they conquered nations (crossing them) faster than other armies would march without any conquering. It is SYMBOLISM for Alex' rapid conquests. They marched over 1300 KM to get to where the battle of Issus took place. 

GIll's Commentary:  And touched not the ground;
as he went; he seemed rather to fly in the air than to walk upon the earth; with such swiftness did Alexander run over the world, and make his conquests: 

Ellicott's Commentary:  Touched not the ground.—An exact prediction of the early conquests of Alexander, all whose movements were characterised by marvellous rapidity. This is expressed by “the wings of a fowl” (Daniel 7:6).

Benson Commentary: he touched not the ground — His marches were so swift, and his conquests so rapid, that he might be said, in a manner, to fly over the ground without touching it. 

Barnes' Notes:  And touched not the ground - He seemed to bound along as if he did not touch the ground - denoting the rapidity of his movements and conquests. 

J.F.B.  Commentary: "Touched not … ground," implies the incredible swiftness of his conquests; he overran the world in less than twelve years.

Matthew Poole's Commentary: Touched not the ground; therefore called a leopard with wings, for he conquered with incredible swiftness in a short time, for in six years’ space he overcame the Medes and Persians, Babylon, Egypt, and all the countries round far and near; as if he had but travelled over them, he so came, saw, and overcame them.

Geneva Study Bible:   Meaning Alexander that came from Greece with great speed and warlike undertaking.

Cambridge Bible:  and touched not the ground] as though flying,—such was the incredible rapidity of its course. The Heb. is properly, ‘and there was none touching the earth,’—a more graphic and forcible expression than simply, ‘and it touched not the earth.’ 

Pulpit Commentary: No symbol could express in a more graphic way the rapidity of the conquests of Alexander the Great than this of the goat that flew over the ground. One can parallel with this the four wings of the leopard in ch. 7.

I imagine next you will argue the phrase "on the face of the whole earth."

 

[luigi]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Thanks to Retro, I looked up the Greek behind "ten thousands:"

1. ten thousand

2. an innumerable multitude, an unlimited number

3. innumerable hosts

ten thousand times ten thousand (2x), two hundred thousand thousand (with G1417) (2x), innumerable multitude (1x), ten thousand (1x), innumerable company (1x), fifty thousand (with G3902) (1x), thousands (1x).

Ten thousand is finite, while Revelation 7:9  is more than finite.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

[luigi]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How Strange: you take Alexander as a goat - symbolism - and the ram as Darius - symbolism - but then insist the Alexander did not touch the ground.  The truth is, his army MARCHED, on the ground, but they conquered nations (crossing them) faster than other armies would march without any conquering. It is SYMBOLISM for Alex' rapid conquests. They marched over 1300 KM to get to where the battle of Issus took place. 

 

 

This is why the Lord provides us in his Word that the he goat would traverse the whole world from the west without touching the ground, knowing that the devil would try to deceive mankind with false illumination on this being a historical event rather than an end time event as Gabriel in Daniel 8:17 & 19 clearly states.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Diaste.

I hope you are having a good Shabbat ("Sabbath")!

While it is true that there's "No such thing as Jew or Greek as all are one in Christ," no such thing has been said about those OUTSIDE of the Messiah, the Christ! It's not just two groups either way, not "Jew vs. Greek," not "Christian vs. unbeliever." We have at least THREE groups: "Believers within the Messiah, Jews outside of the Messiah, and Gentiles outside of the Messiah."

Furthermore, the word "holy" doesn't mean "righteous." It means "cleansed" and "set apart" for some service to God.

"To be made holy" (Old English, hālig, from Germanic origins) is the same as "to be consecrated" (Latin: con + sacrare, "dedicated or devoted as sacred") or "to be sanctified" (Latin: sanctificare from sanctum). The two root words simply come from two different languages. Even the word "saint" comes through Old French seint from the Latin sanctum.

So, a "holy one" is a "saint" is a "sanctified one" is "one who is set apart," and may have been "ritually cleansed" to be "set apart." The Jews, for instance, are NOT "righteous" by any stretch of the imagination. However, they ARE "sanctified," that is, they are "set apart" as a special people for God's own reasons. They are Yeshua`s natural family! Is that "racial?" YOU BET! And, there's NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! I'd prefer that it be called "familial" rather than "racial" because there's really only ONE race - the HUMAN race!

Today, we hear so much crying against racism and prejudice that we think they must really be evil. HOWEVER, God DID favor the Jews above every other tribe of men! And, the Scriptures in the prophecies STILL favor the Jews! That's not "evil"; that's GOD'S business! And, He is ALWAYS righteous! If someone doesn't like that about God, he or she should take it up with God! And, I'd say to him or her, "Good luck with that!"

"Wrath" is simply "extreme anger, rage." The differentiation comes from the SOURCE of that anger or wrath! Is it GOD'S anger or is it the anger from some other person or power? When the Scriptures talk about "God does not appoint Christians to wrath," they are talking about GOD'S wrath! There's absolutely NO guarantee that Christians won't suffer the wrath of OTHERS, such as that of the Beast!

I agree on all points except one;

It's not race, it's spiritual condition. When that spiritual condition aligns with our Father's desires for the spiritual condition of His people, favor; when it doesn't, punishment. God punished His people more than once. Anyone was allowed to be in the camp of the Jews and become a Jew so long as they did become Jews. All the fathers before Jacob were not Jews but found favor in God's eyes through the Spirit. So then favor is conferred though the Spirit and not race.

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands...

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." - Rev 7

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please use a different nomenclature  - such as His coming to Armageddon. You see, if indeed He comes next FOR His bride, then again 7 + years later WITH His bride, then His coming FOR His church would be His "second coming," and His coming WITH His bride would be His THIRD coming.  ( I can at least count to three!) 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Nomenclature should be of LEAST concern! It's "nomenclature" that invents LABELS! Look at how Hollywood has abused the term "Armageddon!" Yet, "Armageddon" is simply a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase Har Megiddow, which means the "Mountain of Megiddow." Today, we use the term "Tel Megiddo" for the same "mountain" or "hill."

And, the rest of this is messy. To me, the "Coming" of the Lord is a vertical descent from off-planet. I'm using the word "arrival" for a horizontal transfer from one place to another. I believe that, once the Messiah has returned to earth, He won't leave again. First, it would be too much expenditure of energy for an efficient God, both literally and in the revelation of prophecy. Any such abrupt vertical transfer would have some prophecy attached to the move. And, I believe that God gave us Scripture that supports TWO Comings, His First Coming or His First Advent in 5 to 4 B.C. (at first mistakenly thought to be 1 A.D.), and His Second Coming is His Second Advent which hasn't occurred, yet. There's no such thing as a "Third Coming" in Scripture.

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I like to say His coming as shown in 1 thes 4, vs. His coming to Armageddon.  No one should misunderstand. 

This passage tells me that they happen AT THE SAME TIME!  Please explain this part. I HIGHLY suspect reading with preconceptions here. 

I'm not reading with "preconceptions"; I'm reading with regard to the Scriptures' revelation of TWO "Comings" or TWO Advents. When Yeshua` said,

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

These verses are frequently read with preconceptions! He does NOT say that He's taking us ANYWHERE! All He is saying is that He will receive us to Himself and we will continually be with Him wherever He goes from there! It is a PRECONCEPTION to think that He is saying "He is taking us back to Heaven with Him!" He didn't say that!

Furthermore, He didn't add, "I will come again and again and ...!" He's coming back ONE TIME!

 

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why separate one coming from another? Very simple: the bible does it, not me. One coming is to the clouds and He remains hidden in the clouds - while another coming is when "every eye will see." How can these be compared? In one coming, He comes with the spirits of the deceased in Christ - while at the other coming, He comes with the armies of heaven: I see a huge difference here. Then there is John 14. It MUST take place sometime: it seems to fit perfectly with His 1 Thes. 4 coming. 

That's not what my Bible tells me.

Acts 1:6-11 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

First, it's important that you understand the various words that were translated "heaven" or "heavenly": The main Greek word translated as "heaven" is "ouranos." The word means the "sky." A clear usage of this word is seen in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

It's the SAME GREEK WORD in verse 1, translated "heaven," as in verses 2 and 3, translated "sky!" To a Greek speaking individual, he or she would not notice a difference. Only when translated into English, at the whim of the translator, do we see two different English words in play!

This word "ouranos" has an adjectival form "ouranios," which means "of or related to the sky." 

There's also "ouranothen" formed from "ouranos" that means "from-the-sky" as one word. It's found in Acts 14:17 about the rain and in Acts 26:13 about the light that Paul saw from the sky.

With a different word ending and a prefix "meso" added, The Greek New Testament also has the word "mesouraneema," which means "in the middle of the sky." It's where the birds fly in Revelation 19:17.

Revelation 19:17 (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God...."

Finally, the adjective form "ouranios" had an "epi" prefix, meaning "above" or "upon," added to form "epouranios," meaning "above the sky." This word was used in 1 Corinthians 15:48, 49 for the "heavenly" bodies, such as the sun, moon, and stars. This is talking about space, the area of vacuum that is above the sky or the atmosphere that exists around our planet Earth.

So, when the two men said, "Why stand ye gazing up into heaven?" they were asking the disciples, "Why are you standing here gazing up into the sky?" Then, they said something that was very important: "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (into the sky)."  He went from the ground into the sky until a cloud blocked their view of Him, and they were searching the sky to see if they could see Him as a small dot once He had passed the cloud, much as we do here in Florida when we're watching a rocket going up into the sky.

Thus, He will return in like fashion, just reverse the order: He will descend from above the sky into the earth's atmosphere, come through the clouds, and LAND upon the earth once more. There's no "bounce" in the earth's atmosphere, sending Him, and those who meet Him in the sky, back up above the sky! Such a "bounce" is PURE CONJECTURE on the part of those who tell such a tall tale. Instead, it makes much better sense that we will meet our Lord in the sky and be transferred to the Middle East and then brought back down to the ground with Him. It makes better sense to find horses there! Furthermore, we will be arriving with Him on horses to Har Megiddow.

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Really? How do you figure this?  It's really very simple: when we study 1 Thes. 5, we see that Paul's rapture comes just before wrath- I believe it will be the trigger for wrath. Where does the Day of His wrath begin? At the 6th seal (before the 7th seal). Where in Revelation is the great crowd too large to number? Just AFTER the 6th seal (the raptured church in heaven). Since we have no appointments with His wrath, written IN the rapture passage, it is logical that the rapture takes place BEFORE wrath. Since John 14 shows Jesus taking people back to the homes prepared, and since in Rev. 19 the church is already in heaven before Christ descends, all ready for the marriage and supper, again it is logical that all those at the marriage must have arrived in heaven sometime BEFORE chapter 19. The strongest argument is Paul himself: mentioning the Day of the Lord, and then God's wrath in His rapture passage. I am convinced, it will be GRACE -> WRATH, no time between. 

Paul gives us a paradigm, bringing up two groups of people to show us how each gets different results: those IN CHRIST get raptured, and so get to live together with Him, while the other group - those left behind -  at the same moment in time get sudden destruction. Just what IS this sudden destruction? When God raises the dead in Christ, that resurrection is going to cause a worldwide earthquake, as God brings together the "dust" that once made up those bodies. Considering just one body out of perhaps billions, the "dust" that once made up that one body could well be scattered over miles or hundreds of miles, and some of the dust could be a hundred feet deep. But in a split second God will bring that dust together. That is going to cause a great earthquake. 

How amazing then that the first event of the start of the Day of His wrath is a great earthquake.  I am convinced, Paul's rapture will CAUSE that earthquake. It will be Paul's sudden destruction. It is the start of Wrath, and it is an earthquake: two events that fit hand in glove with Paul's rapture. 

Since much of Revelation is the 70th week (chapter 8 to 16) and since Jesus spends all that time in heaven, it makes good sense that the saints will spend that time in heaven: "SO shall we ever be with the Lord." 

Note, I did not write "7th seal," "7th trumpet" or "7th vial." John wrote that - and wrote in such a manner that these events cannot possibly be overlaid. Rather, they are sequential and the trumpets and vials take up the 70th week. 

You see, we have to put all this together. First Daniel tells us of the 7 years, and confirms it by half being 3.5 years. Then John confirms it 5 more times. 

One day as I was reading Daniel 9, verse 27, just minding my own business, when my eyes and my mind got to the word “midst” sudden God spoke to me in what seemed like an audible voice: “You could find that exact midpoint ‘clearly marked’ in the book of Revelation.” I was not asleep, and I was not dreaming. I was very much awake and alert. I did not have pizza the night before. I recognized the voice of My Lord. 

I was dumbfounded, and could not speak, but my spirit man immediately spoke and ask “How would I find that?”

He answered, “Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 years of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint.” Then, almost as an afterthought, he concluded: “In fact, you could find the entire 70th week ‘clearly marked.’”

Is there in fact, mentions of a 3 1/2 year period of time in Revelation? You know there are: 5 different mentions. Do they begin at or near the midpoint? CHECK!

Do they run to the end of the week? CHECK!

In the end, I HAVE to believe my Lord. 

 

"Spirit man," really?