Mideast Peace 2.0

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Is Christ returning?  Yes, then we know there is a resurrection.  When ever, and every single time HIS Return is spoken of we know there is a resurrection because He is only returning ONE MORE TIME.  If it wasn't for the "theory" brought forth by that lady in 1830, we would never even question it.  It would remain simple.  It only becomes confusing when it gets clouded by other doctrines.  

No one understands why you guys keep talking about the 1800's when Paul spoke of the Rapture 2000 years ago, you guys just do not understand the Rapture it seems. The bible is not a THEORY Sister. 

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

All "return" passages are of the 2nd Advent.  All "coming" passages are of the 2nd Advent.  SIMPLICITY IN CHRIST
THE RATPURE THEORY MAY TRY TO STEAL some of them, BUT THERE IS NOT ONE WORD THAT SAYS Christ returns before then. 
At least NOT FROM GOD.  

Jesus reaps from a Cloud.

Rev. 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

COVERED BY 1 THESS
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The return with the Bride, while the beast is still on earth, finishes off the argument tbh. 

What you and your ilk do is imitate what the Pharisees did while Jesus was alive, they called Jesus a heretic, because he came like a meek Lamb to die for the world, and all the Pharisees could see in the Bible, you know those learned men, was what THEY WANTED TO SEE, a Conquering Hero. QUESTION, wasn't the suffering servant there in the bible for all to see? YES.......but is was placed in the bible just like the Rapture is apparently, too difficult for some people to understand, because they have tunnel vision.

The problem with you guys who refuse to see the obvious is you can't quite seem to understand why God doesn't say specifically in the bible this, this and this about the Rapture, then you just IGNORE what Paul said, I tell you a MYSTERY (Musterion = Secret by God's Silence, LOOK IT UP *Musterion* "TO SHUT THE MOUTH" So God is SILENT on the subject Paul says) then he tells about the Rapture, and you can't decipher that, well, that is on you sister. Its not my place to get you to see what you can't see, its on you. 

Jesus descends to the earths Atmosphere/Clouds and then CALLS US HOME.......SHOUTS to come up here. You just do not understand it, and you can't put the forensic data together for some reason. Do you think Homicide Investigators always have STATEMENTS OF FACT? No, of course not, they have evidence that points to the guilty party. Here, I have shown you the forensics/evidence, and you refuse to take it at face value, the Bible/God, CAN NOT LIE. The Church is IN HEAVEN in Rev. chapters 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are even opened. You can't get past that. The Bride/Church, RETURNS with Jesus to fight the Beast and all his Minions in Rev. 19, you can't get past that, so you ignore it. 2, Thess. 2 says the Church must DEPART before the Anti-Christ/Man of Sin and the Wrath of God falls. Ignoring the facts does not change the facts sister.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Would it even be possible for the church to be raptured without gathering them first?  No, but apparently that doesn't matter.  Must be ignored or gotten around, no matter the cost.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You miss the WHOLE POINT, we say its TWO SEPERATE EVENTS, we supply the evidence, you are stuck on ONE EVENT, which is wrong, then you say, look at 1 Thess. 4:16-17, that's proof, and I say, its proof of the Rapture, not the 2nd Coming. 

The Second Coming argument is jus preposterous anyway, it means Second Advent, do you know what Advent means? I suppose you do, now think, the two Advents mean The Suffering Servant AND the Conquering King. If one reads John 20, they will know Jesus went to the Father to offer the Sacrifice, and then came back and brought the gift of the Holy Spirit with him. He told Mary, TOUCH ME NOT, for I have not yet gone to the Father, when she saw him and understood it was Jesus disguised, but then 8 days later Jesus allowed John to put his hands in his wounds, BECAUSE, Jesus had went to the Father and offered the Sacrifice, Mary touching Jesus would had defiled that Sacrifice. The Second coming is a MISNOMER..........its the Second Advent, Jesus came come a million times to earth, but until he comes as a Conquering King he is NOT in his 2nd Advent. 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

This is just all sorts of wrong.  

 

This is a waste of time, you have tunnel vision like the Pharisees did. 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

You poor thing. 

Here is a quote:

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/11-33.htm

This takes place when the armed forces of the north begin to occupy Jerusalem. 

³³ They who are wise and have spiritual insight among the people will instruct many and help them understand; yet for many days some [of them and their followers] will fall by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-13.htm

This is what takes place when the second beast begins to practice the authority of the first beast on it behalf. 

¹³ Then I heard [the distinct words of] a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘^[a]Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes, [blessed indeed],” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest and have relief from their labors, for their deeds do follow them.”

NOT "begin to occupy." It is history, so should be DID occupy Jerusalem. There is no mention here of "the end." It is still talking about Antiochus. A "host" was given to him - an army. They occupied Jerusalem and prevented ANY KIND of worship to the God of heaven.  Daniel wrote, "yet for many days." Gabriel told them, it would be 2300 Days. 

As for Rev. 14: I agree: it is when both beasts start to enforce the worship of the image and receiving the mark, or lose the head.  God has just given the warning not to take the mark. Now the days of GT start. 

Note carefully, this verse in Revelation is FUTURE, while your verse in Daniel 11 is HISTORY. I do hope you learn the difference.  I hope you realize, Daniel 11, up to Antiochus, covers many generations - many kings of the north, and many kings of the south.  You asked when Egpyt was destroyed. Read this verse: It was Antiochus' first war against Egypt:

 ²⁸ Then he (Antiochus IV Epiphanes) will return to his land with great treasure (plunder); and his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and return to his own land (Syria).  (amp)   

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Here is a quote:

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/11-33.htm

This takes place when the armed forces of the north begin to occupy Jerusalem. 

³³ They who are wise and have spiritual insight among the people will instruct many and help them understand; yet for many days some [of them and their followers] will fall by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-13.htm

This is what takes place when the second beast begins to practice the authority of the first beast on it behalf. 

¹³ Then I heard [the distinct words of] a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘^[a]Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes, [blessed indeed],” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest and have relief from their labors, for their deeds do follow them.”

NOT "begin to occupy." It is history, so should be DID occupy Jerusalem. There is no mention here of "the end." It is still talking about Antiochus. A "host" was given to him - an army. They occupied Jerusalem and prevented ANY KIND of worship to the God of heaven.  Daniel wrote, "yet for many days." Gabriel told them, it would be 2300 Days. 

As for Rev. 14: I agree: it is when both beasts start to enforce the worship of the image and receiving the mark, or lose the head.  God has just given the warning not to take the mark. Now the days of GT start. 

Note carefully, this verse in Revelation is FUTURE, while your verse in Daniel 11 is HISTORY. I do hope you learn the difference.  I hope you realize, Daniel 11, up to Antiochus, covers many generations - many kings of the north, and many kings of the south.  You asked when Egpyt was destroyed. Read this verse: It was Antiochus' first war against Egypt:

 ²⁸ Then he (Antiochus IV Epiphanes) will return to his land with great treasure (plunder); and his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and return to his own land (Syria).  (amp)   

Like I said, you should keep verses in the context of the writing and stop taking them out of context. 

Daniel 11:33 precedes 11:34 and that verse precedes 11:35.All three verses are speaking of the same events of the same time period. 

You shouldn't separate them and just pick one verses out and say hey. This verse doesn't fit my narrative so I will just say it takes place 5000 years after the former verse. Daniel didn't write that in his prophecy. 

 

 

[iamlamad]

11 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Like I said, you should keep verses in the context of the writing and stop taking them out of context. 

Daniel 11:33 precedes 11:34 and that verse precedes 11:35.All three verses are speaking of the same events of the same time period. 

You shouldn't separate them and just pick one verses out and say hey. This verse doesn't fit my narrative so I will just say it takes place 5000 years after the former verse. Daniel didn't write that in his prophecy. 

 

 

First, I said much of the church world has picked verse 36 as the change from history to future. But, you would not have that, because you found the word END. So again, what if we end Antiochus with verse 34 and make verse 35 the future?

 

I did some research:

DANIEL 11:21 "And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue."

 This starts the reign of Antiochus Epihanes. He wants Egypt. He is crafty and goes to Egypt with a small army and GIVES MONEY AWAY to the people – to get them on his side:

 DANIEL 11:24 "He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province; and he shall do what his fathers have not done, nor his forefathers: he shall disperse among them the plunder, spoil, and riches; and he shall devise his plans against the strongholds, but only for a time."

 Antiochus storms Egypt and takes spoil.  170 BC

 DANIEL 11:25 "He shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the South with a great army. And the king of the South shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand, for they shall devise plans against him."

 Verse 26: Egypt defeated

Verse 28: home through the Holy Land with the riches of Egypt.

 Why did God give time and scripture to Antiochus?

 “Antiochus IV left Egypt; on his way home, he and his armies marched against Jerusalem. He commanded his soldiers to kill everyone they encountered (men, women, and children). Within the space of three days, his forces had killed somewhere between 40,000 and 80,000 people. A similar number were captured and sold into slavery. Not satisfied with the slaughter, Antiochus IV entered the Temple and (guided by Menelaus) took the holy vessels, including the golden altar, the menorah, the table for the showbread, the cups for drink offerings, the bowls, the golden censers, the curtain, the crowns, and the gold decoration on the front of the temple. He took all the silver and gold, as well as the hidden treasures which he found. After appointing the Phrygian Phillip as governor in Jerusalem, Antiochus IV then returned to Antioch.

 Verse 29: Antiochus still wanted more from Egypt! Heads south again.

 Two brothers (nephews of Antiochus) are ruling Egypt. Antiochus had an agreement with one of them. But they outsmart him and join forces, leaving Antiiochus outside wanting more. So he heads south again. This time a Roman stands in His way. Draws a circle around Antiochus in the sand and demands an answer before Antiochus steps out of the circle. Of course Antiochus is FURIOUS, frustrated to the MAX because Rome is preventing him from having his way. Of course, his way home is back through Israel.

 “On his return to Syria, Antiochus IV tried to ease the sting of the humiliation he had suffered at the hands of the Romans by taking out his frustration on the Jews in Judea. His armies encircled Jerusalem and then attacked. All those Jews who resisted were executed.”

 DANIEL 11:31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation."

 “Antiochus IV's army desecrated the Temple and stopped the daily sacrifices. On the 15th of Kislev, in December 168 BCE, the Syrians built a pagan altar over the altar of burnt offering in the Temple and placed an image of Zeus Olympius upon it. Ten days later, on the 25th of Kislev, swine's flesh was offered on the altar to Zeus.”

 DANIEL 11:32   Some Jews side with Antiochus, but others refuse  and  carry out exploits.

 DANIEL 11:33 "And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering."

 “. Antiochus IV appointed inspectors to watch the Jews and commanded the cities of Judah to offer pagan sacrifices. Yet many in Israel stood firm and rejected the innovations of the king of the North.”

 DANIEL 11:34 "Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue."

 “As the historical book of I Maccabees shows, the decrees of Antiochus IV eventually led to a rebellion started by the priest Mattathias and his five sons (including Judas Maccabee). “ 

 Antiochus dies.

 DANIEL 11:35 "And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time."

 Many people have this verse tied with the previous, about Antiochus, and about THAT “end.” The end written about in Dan. 8: the end of the indignation caused by Antiochus.  OF COURSE they could be purified according to OT standards.

 DANIEL 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done." (ESV)

 “In this verse, the king being spoken of changes. Starting in verse 21, Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the referenced king. Verses 32 through 35 prophesy his defeat by the Maccabees (the Hasmoneans) and encompass the subsequent fall of their dynasty. But the context shows that the remaining verses in this chapter cannot apply to Antiochus IV.

 Most Christian scholars try to insert a huge chronological gap in the prophecy here, making the rest of it apply not to the antetype Antiochus IV, but to the end-time type, the Antichrist. “

 Is this correct? The entire chapter is about the king of the North vs the King of the South. If this is Correct, then the Antichrist must come from the ancient lands of Antiocus Epiphanes.

 About “THE END”

Premises  (Another website)

1) The words "the end" or "the end of time" do not necessarily refer to the literal end of the world. Although they can refer to the end of the world, they more generally refer to the end of whatever the writer or angel has been talking about. This may include a certain kingdom or series of events. One must examine the context to determine what the phrase "the end" or "an end" applies to.

     For example: The angel giving the vision to Daniel says to Daniel at the end of the book, "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance." (Daniel 12:13). It should be apparent to the reader that the end as it is used in the first part of the verse refers to Daniel's end or his death. The second "the end of the days" refers to the resurrection. More on that later.     

     Another example:  "Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." (Dan. 11:35). Later as we study this verse in its context, we find that the time of the end as used in the text does not refer to the end of the world, even though we may learn a great lesson from it. In other words, it's primary application is for another time. However, the principles involved are applicable to all time and especially at the end of the world. (from another website) This same author also wrote this:

“In verse 40 above, the most straightforward approach is to ask, "what does the end refer to?" I believe it refers to the end of what we've been talking about, namely, the end of the Ptolemaic Empire and the Seleucid Empire.” 

 So this author does not jump to our future.  “At the time of the end of the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Empires, the King of the North, now the Roman Empire (Julius Caesar and his general Pompey) swept down through Palestine, into Egypt, and into Libya and Ethiopia (Nubia). The Roman galleys (warships) struck terror in the sight of many of the countries and eventually, the Roman Empire controlled all the coastal countries around the Mediterranean Sea.”

 From yet another website:

From Dan 11:36 on, there is quite a diversity of opinions...

   a. Some believe Antiochus Epiphanes is still the subject

   b. Others suggest that a Roman emperor is being described

   c. Still others believe it refers to someone yet to come

 

A. THREE DIFFERENT VIEWS...

      1. The king is Antiochus Epiphanes of Syria

         a. The vile and blasphemous ruler described in Dan 11:21-35

         b. The time of his persecution would therefore be 169-167 B.C.

         c. The time of the Maccabean revolt

         -- This view is espoused by Albert Barnes in his commentary

      2. The king represents the Roman emperors

         a. Who persecuted Christians in the early years of the church

         b. The time of this persecution would therefore be 60-313 A.D.

         -- This view is proposed by Robert Harkrider in his workbook

      3. The king represents the Anti-Christ

         a. A future ruler still to come

         b. The time of this persecution would be shortly before the

            return of Christ

         -- This view is held by pre-millennialists, but also by some

            amillennialists

 

If the experts cannot agree, why should I spend time trying to get it. It is just not that important a verse.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No one understands why you guys keep talking about the 1800's when Paul spoke of the Rapture 2000 years ago, you guys just do not understand the Rapture it seems. The bible is not a THEORY Sister. 

BECAUSE IF THERE WAS A PRE TRIB RAPTURE PAUL COULD NOT HAVE WRITTEN THIS

.. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him...Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


 

OR THIS

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:




OR THIS

2  Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

TRULY, IT IS THAT SIMPLE.  

EITHER PRE TRIB RAPTURE IS A LIE, OR PAUL.  IF THERE WAS A COMING PREVIOUS HE COULD NOT HAVE WROTE THAT.  

 

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS NO MATTER HOW MUCH WISDOM OF MAN YOU PUT FORTH.  

 

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

What you and your ilk do is imitate what the Pharisees did while Jesus was alive, they called Jesus a heretic, because he came like a meek Lamb to die for the world, and all the Pharisees could see in the Bible, you know those learned men, was what THEY WANTED TO SEE, a Conquering Hero. QUESTION, wasn't the suffering servant there in the bible for all to see? YES.......but is was placed in the bible just like the Rapture is apparently, too difficult for some people to understand, because they have tunnel vision.

WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST QUOTE THIS PART OF MY POST?

You see back in the day, they would have figured out a way around this TOO.  They had the entire Old Testament to root around in.  And they did. DAILY.   BUT they didn't recognize the Messiah when He came.   Wise men, Herod, many others did, BUT not them. 

They had their own idea.  Why?  because they made the WORD of GOD fit what they thought or wanted.  They thought they could just believe what ever.  Look at where it got them.  And just as Jesus WARNS US, do not be deceived, BELIEVE THEM NOT.  WHEN THEY SAY   HE IS IN THE DESERT, DON'T BELIEVE IT.  TODAY THEY ARE SAYING  "HE IS IN THE SKY".  NOT SO DIFFERENT REALLY.


 

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus descends to the earths Atmosphere/Clouds and then CALLS US HOME.......SHOUTS to come up here. You just do not understand it, and you can't put the forensic data together for some reason. Do you think Homicide Investigators always have STATEMENTS OF FACT? No, of course not, they have evidence that points to the guilty party. Here, I have shown you the forensics/evidence, and you refuse to take it at face value, the Bible/God, CAN NOT LIE. The Church is IN HEAVEN in Rev. chapters 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are even opened. You can't get past that. The Bride/Church, RETURNS with Jesus to fight the Beast and all his Minions in Rev. 19, you can't get past that, so you ignore it. 2, Thess. 2 says the Church must DEPART before the Anti-Christ/Man of Sin and the Wrath of God falls. Ignoring the facts does not change the facts sister.

HERE is more proof that what THE THEORY putS forth and what GOD does are not the same thing

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

No need to look to the "Atmosphere/Clouds"               HE ISN'T CALLING US      -       HOME HE IS COMING HOME

NO NEED TO EVEN BE GAZING UP INTO HEAVEN, NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN THERE.  JESUS WAS TAKEN UP FROM US INTO HEAVEN AND WHAT DOES IT SAY AFTER THAT??????????

so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.

AND IF IT WASN'T FOR THE THEORY, NO ONE WOULD EVER EVEN QUESTION WHAT  "COME"  MEANS.   HE LEFT.  HE'S COMING BACK  

SUFFERING SERVANT FOLLOWED BY  LORD OF LORDS  

SALVATION FOLLOWED BY VENGEANCE  


AND THAT SHOUT  -  YOU FULL ON ADDED YOUR OWN WORDS THERE 

 AND THIS IS JUST ONE OF MANY OF THE "ADDITIONS"  OF THE THEORY 


AS FOR THE "FORENSIC DATA" I'LL STICK WITH GODS WORDS.  IF GOD SAID IT YOU WOULD NO DOUBT SHOW IT.  BUT YOU DON'T SHOW IT BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE DONE.  IT CAN'T BE DONE BECAUSE IT ISN'T A DOCTRINE FOUND IN THE BIBLE.  

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The problem with you guys who refuse to see the obvious is you can't quite seem to understand why God doesn't say specifically in the bible this, this and this about the Rapture, then you just IGNORE what Paul said, I tell you a MYSTERY (Musterion = Secret by God's Silence, LOOK IT UP *Musterion* "TO SHUT THE MOUTH" So God is SILENT on the subject Paul says) then he tells about the Rapture, and you can't decipher that, well, that is on you sister. Its not my place to get you to see what you can't see, its on you. 

YES, HE SHOWS US A MYSTERY



AND HE EVEN GIVES THE TIMEING OF THIS MYSTERY



1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2078  eschatos

last, extreme

finally, till the end

final  the furthest extreme end 

farthest

FINAL (OF PLACE OR TIME)  
 

DOESN'T IT DRIVE THE THEORY INSANE THAT EVERY WHERE IT GOES SOMETHING ELSE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED OR EXPLAINED?  






WHY DOESN'T MY "ILK" BELIEVE IN PRE TRIB?  CAUSE "IT ISN'T WRITTEN".  IT IS A DOCTRINE BEING BROUGHT FORTH THAT THE WORD OF GOD DOESN'T


NOT TO MENTION 
IT FLIES IN THE FACE OF WHO GOD IS



AND HOW HE TEACHES US.   ALL OF US.    HOW EVEN CHRIST LEARNED OBEDIENCE.    NOT A RESPECTOR OF PERSONS.    ALL MADE ONE.  DIVIDING WALL DOWN.  
OR DO I HAVE YOU MIXED UP WITH ANOTHER PRE TRIBBER THAT SAYS THE CHURCH IS ONLY GENTILES?  IF SO THEN

 

 

1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for He careth for you.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

1 Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

1 Peter 5:11 To Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

First, I said much of the church world has picked verse 36 as the change from history to future. But, you would not have that, because you found the word END. So again, what if we end Antiochus with verse 34 and make verse 35 the future?

 

I did some research:

DANIEL 11:21 "And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue."

 This starts the reign of Antiochus Epihanes. He wants Egypt. He is crafty and goes to Egypt with a small army and GIVES MONEY AWAY to the people – to get them on his side:

 DANIEL 11:24 "He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province; and he shall do what his fathers have not done, nor his forefathers: he shall disperse among them the plunder, spoil, and riches; and he shall devise his plans against the strongholds, but only for a time."

 Antiochus storms Egypt and takes spoil.  170 BC

 DANIEL 11:25 "He shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the South with a great army. And the king of the South shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand, for they shall devise plans against him."

 Verse 26: Egypt defeated

Verse 28: home through the Holy Land with the riches of Egypt.

 Why did God give time and scripture to Antiochus?

 “Antiochus IV left Egypt; on his way home, he and his armies marched against Jerusalem. He commanded his soldiers to kill everyone they encountered (men, women, and children). Within the space of three days, his forces had killed somewhere between 40,000 and 80,000 people. A similar number were captured and sold into slavery. Not satisfied with the slaughter, Antiochus IV entered the Temple and (guided by Menelaus) took the holy vessels, including the golden altar, the menorah, the table for the showbread, the cups for drink offerings, the bowls, the golden censers, the curtain, the crowns, and the gold decoration on the front of the temple. He took all the silver and gold, as well as the hidden treasures which he found. After appointing the Phrygian Phillip as governor in Jerusalem, Antiochus IV then returned to Antioch.

 Verse 29: Antiochus still wanted more from Egypt! Heads south again.

 Two brothers (nephews of Antiochus) are ruling Egypt. Antiochus had an agreement with one of them. But they outsmart him and join forces, leaving Antiiochus outside wanting more. So he heads south again. This time a Roman stands in His way. Draws a circle around Antiochus in the sand and demands an answer before Antiochus steps out of the circle. Of course Antiochus is FURIOUS, frustrated to the MAX because Rome is preventing him from having his way. Of course, his way home is back through Israel.

 “On his return to Syria, Antiochus IV tried to ease the sting of the humiliation he had suffered at the hands of the Romans by taking out his frustration on the Jews in Judea. His armies encircled Jerusalem and then attacked. All those Jews who resisted were executed.”

 DANIEL 11:31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation."

 “Antiochus IV's army desecrated the Temple and stopped the daily sacrifices. On the 15th of Kislev, in December 168 BCE, the Syrians built a pagan altar over the altar of burnt offering in the Temple and placed an image of Zeus Olympius upon it. Ten days later, on the 25th of Kislev, swine's flesh was offered on the altar to Zeus.”

 DANIEL 11:32   Some Jews side with Antiochus, but others refuse  and  carry out exploits.

 DANIEL 11:33 "And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering."

 “. Antiochus IV appointed inspectors to watch the Jews and commanded the cities of Judah to offer pagan sacrifices. Yet many in Israel stood firm and rejected the innovations of the king of the North.”

 DANIEL 11:34 "Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue."

 “As the historical book of I Maccabees shows, the decrees of Antiochus IV eventually led to a rebellion started by the priest Mattathias and his five sons (including Judas Maccabee). “ 

 Antiochus dies.

 DANIEL 11:35 "And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time."

 Many people have this verse tied with the previous, about Antiochus, and about THAT “end.” The end written about in Dan. 8: the end of the indignation caused by Antiochus.  OF COURSE they could be purified according to OT standards.

 DANIEL 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done." (ESV)

 “In this verse, the king being spoken of changes. Starting in verse 21, Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the referenced king. Verses 32 through 35 prophesy his defeat by the Maccabees (the Hasmoneans) and encompass the subsequent fall of their dynasty. But the context shows that the remaining verses in this chapter cannot apply to Antiochus IV.

 Most Christian scholars try to insert a huge chronological gap in the prophecy here, making the rest of it apply not to the antetype Antiochus IV, but to the end-time type, the Antichrist. “

 Is this correct? The entire chapter is about the king of the North vs the King of the South. If this is Correct, then the Antichrist must come from the ancient lands of Antiocus Epiphanes.

 About “THE END”

Premises  (Another website)

1) The words "the end" or "the end of time" do not necessarily refer to the literal end of the world. Although they can refer to the end of the world, they more generally refer to the end of whatever the writer or angel has been talking about. This may include a certain kingdom or series of events. One must examine the context to determine what the phrase "the end" or "an end" applies to.

     For example: The angel giving the vision to Daniel says to Daniel at the end of the book, "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance." (Daniel 12:13). It should be apparent to the reader that the end as it is used in the first part of the verse refers to Daniel's end or his death. The second "the end of the days" refers to the resurrection. More on that later.     

     Another example:  "Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." (Dan. 11:35). Later as we study this verse in its context, we find that the time of the end as used in the text does not refer to the end of the world, even though we may learn a great lesson from it. In other words, it's primary application is for another time. However, the principles involved are applicable to all time and especially at the end of the world. (from another website) This same author also wrote this:

“In verse 40 above, the most straightforward approach is to ask, "what does the end refer to?" I believe it refers to the end of what we've been talking about, namely, the end of the Ptolemaic Empire and the Seleucid Empire.” 

 So this author does not jump to our future.  “At the time of the end of the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Empires, the King of the North, now the Roman Empire (Julius Caesar and his general Pompey) swept down through Palestine, into Egypt, and into Libya and Ethiopia (Nubia). The Roman galleys (warships) struck terror in the sight of many of the countries and eventually, the Roman Empire controlled all the coastal countries around the Mediterranean Sea.”

 From yet another website:

From Dan 11:36 on, there is quite a diversity of opinions...

   a. Some believe Antiochus Epiphanes is still the subject

   b. Others suggest that a Roman emperor is being described

   c. Still others believe it refers to someone yet to come

 

A. THREE DIFFERENT VIEWS...

      1. The king is Antiochus Epiphanes of Syria

         a. The vile and blasphemous ruler described in Dan 11:21-35

         b. The time of his persecution would therefore be 169-167 B.C.

         c. The time of the Maccabean revolt

         -- This view is espoused by Albert Barnes in his commentary

      2. The king represents the Roman emperors

         a. Who persecuted Christians in the early years of the church

         b. The time of this persecution would therefore be 60-313 A.D.

         -- This view is proposed by Robert Harkrider in his workbook

      3. The king represents the Anti-Christ

         a. A future ruler still to come

         b. The time of this persecution would be shortly before the

            return of Christ

         -- This view is held by pre-millennialists, but also by some

            amillennialists

 

If the experts cannot agree, why should I spend time trying to get it. It is just not that important a verse.

You would have been better off not listening to the Pharisees who you claim are experts. They are the one who said Daniel 11:31 was talking about Antiochus. 

I have no idea why you feel the Pharisees were wise and enlightened as they believed they were. Jesus said they were blind leaders of the blind. Why don't you believe Jesus Insted of them? 

https://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/24-15.htm

The abomination of desolation spoken by the prophet Daniel was not placed in Jerusalem by Antiochus. It has not been placed in Jerusalem yet and Jesus knew it. I know it. 

But the expert Pharisees and those who believe them don't know it. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[iamlamad]

46 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

You would have been better off not listening to the Pharisees who you claim are experts. They are the one who said Daniel 11:31 was talking about Antiochus. 

I have no idea why you feel the Pharisees were wise and enlightened as they believed they were. Jesus said they were blind leaders of the blind. Why don't you believe Jesus Insted of them? 

https://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/24-15.htm

The abomination of desolation spoken by the prophet Daniel was not placed in Jerusalem by Antiochus. It has not been placed in Jerusalem yet and Jesus knew it. I know it. 

But the expert Pharisees and those who believe them don't know it. 

Much of what I wrote, other than the scriptures, was written by GENTILES in the last hundred years - so NOT pharisees.

Next, why is it, when someone disagrees with YOUR take on this, you call them a pharisee? Just maybe, YOU are mistaken. 

Did you never read what Solomon wrote: " That which is has already been, And what is to be has already been; And God requires an account of what is past."

Question, why do you doubt history? Do you imagine the people that wrote of what Antiochus did LIED?  

THERE IS AN ABOMINATION COMING. Jesus said it. I believe that. It will be caused by the man of sin who will turn Beast after he is possessed by the devil. Why then to you say I should believe Jesus? I DO believe Jesus. 

Why is it you can't seem to understand, something can happen TWICE? Are you one of those people that imagine the signs in the sun and moon can happen only once, so that the signs at the 6th seal before the 70th week must also be the same exact sign at the same exact time as the signs in the sun and moon after the tribulation of those days Jesus talked about in Matthew 24?  

Next, do you take all of Dan. 11 as future?

Do you take some of Dan. 8 as future?

[DeighAnn]

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This is a waste of time, you have tunnel vision like the Pharisees did. 

LUCKY FOR ME, it has no effect here, as it did them THEM at least not according  TO THIS VERSION OF THE THEORY. 

It's hard to keep track and unless that specific person points out what they want, well....

BUT accordingly, I don't have to believe in the Pre trib rap in any way shape or form, AND YET STILL, I would, just as you, be raptured as a believer in the Lord, if it's true.  

Not BELIEVING IN IT changes NOTHING.  

While believing in it changes EVERYTHING and could have deadly consequences.

AS

NOTHING IS TO BE withheld or watched out for while here on earth except Jesus returning in the clouds 

DOES THE THEORY UNDERSTAND THIS???
 

for those taken in by it, there CAN BE NO DECEPTION/deceiver, no beast, no image, no worship, no mark NO WORSHIP, 

THAT would ever be even considered " OFF LIMITS " 

BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THEY WONT BE HERE.

They can be deceived by SATAN without ever giving it a thought, just life progressing as it does before Christ arrives.  They will never see it COMING because 

"the theory"  has made them believe "they wont be here".  

DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN DOESN'T APPLY TO ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THE THEORY.   why oh why would Christ tell his followers that?  Didn't He know??? 


DOESN'T THAT BOTHER ALL WHO TEACH THIS DOCTRINE?  DOESN'T IT SCARE THOSE WHO TEACH IT TO KNOW THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY SINGLE ONE THAT IS TAUGHT and who FINDS THEMSELVES HAVING BEEN DECEIVED??

Probably why some of the pre trib proponents changed it to "those who know the secret/mystery only" or dividing the church or leaving some brethren out.  

I won't waste your time anymore.  

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Much of what I wrote, other than the scriptures, was written by GENTILES in the last hundred years - so NOT pharisees.

Next, why is it, when someone disagrees with YOUR take on this, you call them a pharisee? Just maybe, YOU are mistaken. 

Did you never read what Solomon wrote: " That which is has already been, And what is to be has already been; And God requires an account of what is past."

Question, why do you doubt history? Do you imagine the people that wrote of what Antiochus did LIED?  

THERE IS AN ABOMINATION COMING. Jesus said it. I believe that. It will be caused by the man of sin who will turn Beast after he is possessed by the devil. Why then to you say I should believe Jesus? I DO believe Jesus. 

Why is it you can't seem to understand, something can happen TWICE? Are you one of those people that imagine the signs in the sun and moon can happen only once, so that the signs at the 6th seal before the 70th week must also be the same exact sign at the same exact time as the signs in the sun and moon after the tribulation of those days Jesus talked about in Matthew 24?  

Next, do you take all of Dan. 11 as future?

Do you take some of Dan. 8 as future?

The Pharisees were the first to teach everyone the the king in Dan 11:31 was antiochus. All interpretations since came from them. 

And no, the abomination of desolation is not plural, its singular. 

The abomination of desolation, spoken by the prophet Daniel is what Jesus said. 

https://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/24-15.htm

The Pharisees taught that it happened in 167 bc. Jesus taught that it would happen at the time of the end. It is a sign of his coming. 

Jesus made it clear that it would take place at this time. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/12-1.htm

Sadly there are few people who pay attention to what Jesus said about the abomination of desolation so they can't see it. 

[iamlamad]

On 9/23/2020 at 9:09 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

The Pharisees were the first to teach everyone the the king in Dan 11:31 was antiochus. All interpretations since came from them. 

And no, the abomination of desolation is not plural, its singular. 

The abomination of desolation, spoken by the prophet Daniel is what Jesus said. 

https://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/24-15.htm

The Pharisees taught that it happened in 167 bc. Jesus taught that it would happen at the time of the end. It is a sign of his coming. 

Jesus made it clear that it would take place at this time. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/12-1.htm

Sadly there are few people who pay attention to what Jesus said about the abomination of desolation so they can't see it. 

Then  are you saying Daniel lied in chapter 8, and Antiochus did not polute the sancturay and stop the daily sacrifices? Most of the commentators say that also was an abomination of Desolation. It is not written, but I would say what happened in 70 AD was yet another abomination of desolation. 

And you are still wrong, most of the church world believes there is an AoD coming. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by iamlamad