Daniel 7..... the 10 horns

[Charlie744]

Joe, that was a terrific comment and certainly on point! 

Since I have individuals like you interested in this topic, AND who are more knowledgeable than myself, I would really like you to “keep me honest “, if you will, on this exact subject within Daniel:

1) I would ask you to go back into Daniel and pleading identify all those verses that speak or address “the visions and, I guess the specific times Daniel is told to “shut up or seal up the vision”.

  a) as you are aware, even before you spend your time doing this, there are more than one time this is said. 

  b) I would like to ask if each of those times this was said to Daniel, it specifically pertained to a DIFFERENT period of time - they do not speak to the same “end times” (my opinion only). 

I believe one speaks to the end times when Jesus will return, while the other mention is referring to the “end time of the vision”, or the end of the 490 years (Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy). 

Also, and please forgive me since it has been almost 1 year since I worked on Daniel 8 ... but you did mention two points in your response that jogged my memory of Daniel 8:

   a) indignation - what is this referring to? Is this the indignation of the crucifixion this occurs within the 490 years? 

  b) it’s one of God’s appointed Feasts - agreed, but given my comment in “indignation” above where it might speak of the crucifixion, isn’t this one of them- Passover?

 I believe the “sealing up” commands each speak to a very different time; one at Daniel’s 70 week vision, and one at His second coming (chapter 12), where God is telling both Daniel and us, these things will NOT be understood until near the end times only ( which is why I have mentioned that Daniel and Revelation have YET to be understood. God will reveal them at His perfect time!

 Thank you Joe for your interest and comments, Charlie 

[abcdef]

13 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

   b) The 10 horns WERE previously identified as the 10 toes on the metal image. They also, in my studies, existed prior to the crucifixion AND would continue to the of times (second coming).

Brother,

I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the 10 toes/horns existed at the time of the crucifixion.

The statue of Dan. 2 shows that the horns/toes do not exist as entities until after the fall of the Roman Empire.

What is the logic that you use to come to this conclusion?

Edited October 2, 2020 by abcdef
typo

[Charlie744]

Thanks abcdef!

 I COMPLETELY understand your  question AND just how confusing my response to the 10 toes / 10 horns!!!!!!!!

The ONLY response I can offer to you or anyone AT THIS TIME is that the identity of the 10 horns is not what you believe them to be... I certainly know how this sounds and comes across but it is only because I am not able to release the identity at this time... very sorry!

But FYI, it took me at least 2 months to determine the identity of them... 

In any event, in my opinion, the beast is pagan Rome and also represents all the various rulers and powers over the next 2,000 years- another reason there can not be any animal on earth that could possibly resemble it. The 10 horns are 10 powers where the little horn will indeed pluck up 3 of them. 

As I mentioned in my previous posts, there are the 11 items within the book of Daniel (all 12 chapters), that have been misinterpreted and which cause so much confusion among scholars and interpreters over the past 2,000 years. Most importantly, these very same misinterpretations have a tremendous affect on how we interpret Revelation. This is why Daniel must be understood WITHOUT any reliance on Revelation. 

It is so ironic - people instructed me to study Daniel BEFORE I tried to understand Daniel, but all during my study of Daniel, when I would seek their opinion and understanding of some verse in Daniel, they told me (in many occasions), to find the answer in Revelation !!!  

They really could not interpret the very difficult verses (and especially chapter 11), on its own— they went to Revelation to see if those verses would help interpret Daniel... consequently, their Daniel interpretation would definitely match those verses in Revelation. 

I certainly realize how important it is to give you the basis for the identification of the 10 horns, but I can not reveal it OR most of the other 11 items previously listed. 

But this does not really change the discussion- they are 3 separate actors that have a significant role in how they affect His Plan... obviously, the little horn (papacy) does come to claim he holds the position of god on earth (blasphemy), and he does in fact change times and laws (Sabbath), and insists that man must go through the RCC to be saved and seek repentance through their confessionals.... and on and on!

So you can see the little horn is a religious actor while the beast is secular (throughout the 2,000 years) - definitely not the same. 

Once again, sorry for not revealing the 10 horns but I am sure you can see through why I might not be able to at this time.

 Thank you, Charlie 

[abcdef]

21 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks abcdef!

 I COMPLETELY understand your  question AND just how confusing my response to the 10 toes / 10 horns!!!!!!!!

The ONLY response I can offer to you or anyone AT THIS TIME is that the identity of the 10 horns is not what you believe them to be... I certainly know how this sounds and comes across but it is only because I am not able to release the identity at this time... very sorry!

 

I certainly realize how important it is to give you the basis for the identification of the 10 horns, but I can not reveal it OR most of the other 11 items previously listed. 

 

Why can you not reveal them?

Do you know who they are but will not reveal them?

Or are you not sure of who they are?

[Charlie744]

No it is NOT because I am not sure of them... I am currently trying to complete chapter 11 and that means I have obviously completed chapters 1 - 10... 

I mentioned the 11 specific issues that have more than one interpretation within this “community” (this of course includes all individuals over the past 2,000 years (Augustine, Origin to today’s scholars and expository). Yet, there really are no more than two main interpretations for these 11 issues. 

So when I attempted to learn Daniel, it made perfect sense to try and learn what these folks believed- they certainly were and are so much more knowledgeable and educated than myself... but I kept trying to determine which major interpretation made more sense to me - but why shouldn’t these talented folks all agree? 

I decided to identify those “issues” where they disagreed- again, this came to these 11. 

I can assure you there was no way I could determine who had the better interpretation UNTIL I discovered they were both approaching the meaning of those issues/verses incorrectly- it was the APPROACH that was wrong. They were all interpreting the issues at what I refer to as “man’ level”, instead at His level... meaning we need to stop looking for their meaning by matching them to a certain man / ruler (like an AE or Ptolemy). Instead, we should see how these verses center or focus on the Messiah. The perfect example is in 9:27. Almost everyone contends the “he” is some future anti-Christ figure- and you can obviously see how this will affect Revelation. However, if you find the “he” is “He”, then it will give you a completely different interpretation within both Daniel AND Revelation. 

If you are able to perform this exercise for all 11 issues, Daniel will come together WITHOUT accessing Revelation and provide a very different interpretation. Then this understanding of Daniel will open up Revelation.

Bottom line is this will all be presented for publication.... Charlie 

 

[abcdef]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

No it is NOT because I am not sure of them... I am currently trying to complete chapter 11 and that means I have obviously completed chapters 1 - 10... 

I mentioned the 11 specific issues that have more than one interpretation within this “community” (this of course includes all individuals over the past 2,000 years (Augustine, Origin to today’s scholars and expository). Yet, there really are no more than two main interpretations for these 11 issues. 

So when I attempted to learn Daniel, it made perfect sense to try and learn what these folks believed- they certainly were and are so much more knowledgeable and educated than myself... but I kept trying to determine which major interpretation made more sense to me - but why shouldn’t these talented folks all agree? 

I decided to identify those “issues” where they disagreed- again, this came to these 11. 

I can assure you there was no way I could determine who had the better interpretation UNTIL I discovered they were both approaching the meaning of those issues/verses incorrectly- it was the APPROACH that was wrong. They were all interpreting the issues at what I refer to as “man’ level”, instead at His level... meaning we need to stop looking for their meaning by matching them to a certain man / ruler (like an AE or Ptolemy). Instead, we should see how these verses center or focus on the Messiah.

 

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

The perfect example is in 9:27. Almost everyone contends the “he” is some future anti-Christ figure- and you can obviously see how this will affect Revelation. However, if you find the “he” is “He”, then it will give you a completely different interpretation within both Daniel AND Revelation. 

I agree that the he is HE.

Jesus is the prince who confirmed the covenant.

Jesus destroys Jerusalem with the Roman armies as He said it would happen.

If this is what you are saying, it has been said before.

 

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

If you are able to perform this exercise for all 11 issues, Daniel will come together WITHOUT accessing Revelation and provide a very different interpretation. Then this understanding of Daniel will open up Revelation.

Bottom line is this will all be presented for publication.... Charlie 

Daniel 11 is history.

Maybe you should test your ideas here first.

If they won't stand here, then maybe they need an adjustment.

[Charlie744]

Thank you for your thoughts... As I mentioned, nothing was more difficult than 11 and I can assure you it is NOT history!  It is like so many other things that I and I am sure everyone has experienced at least a few times each —- and I will try and get my point across using a math analogy:

 I remember more than a few times where I simply could not get a particular math equation under my belt... my mind just could not see it. Totally frustrating and yet there were many others who had no problem understanding it. But then, for whatever reason, the light came on and I immediately understood the equation... and it seemed so simple to me then! Well, chapter 11 provided me with the same exercise ONLY it seemed 1,000 times more difficult. I am very comfortable with it AND it dovetails with the earlier chapters in Daniel, Charlie 

[abcdef]

8 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you for your thoughts... As I mentioned, nothing was more difficult than 11 and I can assure you it is NOT history!  It is like so many other things that I and I am sure everyone has experienced at least a few times each —- and I will try and get my point across using a math analogy:

 I remember more than a few times where I simply could not get a particular math equation under my belt... my mind just could not see it. Totally frustrating and yet there were many others who had no problem understanding it. But then, for whatever reason, the light came on and I immediately understood the equation... and it seemed so simple to me then! Well, chapter 11 provided me with the same exercise ONLY it seemed 1,000 times more difficult. I am very comfortable with it AND it dovetails with the earlier chapters in Daniel, Charlie 

Dan. 11:2, says that the passage is about Persia and Greece, history.

[Charlie744]

Yes, verses 1 to 4 are nothing more than a very brief recap of the first 3 kingdoms - God’s way of confirming He has already dealt with them and put them in our rear view mirror.. 

Think about it... He provided us with almost 6 chapters of Babylon, then a lot of information about Medes-Persia (you can see each kingdom is receiving less and less “ink”. Then despite the very impressive military events associated with Alexander, there is even less “ink” given to the 3rd kingdom, so why are these first 4 verses necessary to record? They are a way to summarize and specifically identify them and put them behind us.. now, on to the most important kingdom- the 4th where He and His Plan take center stage. Charlie 

[abcdef]

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Yes, verses 1 to 4 are nothing more than a very brief recap of the first 3 kingdoms - God’s way of confirming He has already dealt with them and put them in our rear view mirror.. 

They were future to Daniel, not past.

Daniel was written 2500 years ago, not yesterday as a recap.

We see them as history, but they were future and were not revealed until they happened years and centuries later.

 

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Think about it... He provided us with almost 6 chapters of Babylon,

That was the empire that ruled the people of Israel at the time that most of Daniel was written. You would expect that it would apply to the people of that time period.

 

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

then a lot of information about Medes-Persia (you can see each kingdom is receiving less and less “ink”. Then despite the very impressive military events associated with Alexander, there is even less “ink” given to the 3rd kingdom, so why are these first 4 verses necessary to record?

They are future to Daniel, not a summary of past events.

 

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

They are a way to summarize and specifically identify them and put them behind us.. now, on to the most important kingdom- the 4th where He and His Plan take center stage. Charlie 

Tell me all about the timeline of the 4th kingdom,

As seen in the Dan 2 statue.