Daniel 7..... the 10 horns

[Michael37]

Political Rome Destroyed:

Dan 7:11  "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.
 

Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece Restrained:

Dan 7:12  As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

The Seven Heads Who At Times Were Allowed To Govern God's People:

1.Egypt, 2.Assyria, 3. Babylon, 4. Medo-Persia, 5. Greece, 6. Political Rome, 7.Papal Rome.

The Seven Together Unrestrained:

Rev 13:1  Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
 

Political Rome Revived:

Rev 13:3  And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
 

 

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for your responses. It's great to dialogue with a brother that engages with a calm spirit. Iron sharpens iron.

My initial response is to question whether Rome will or must conquer the previous and SPECIFIC 3 kingdoms

We have to go by what scripture says, and not let our own interpretation guide us. So, what does scripture say:

"Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces."...Dan 2:40

Alright Joe, we are going to have to set some ground rules here before we continue discussing this or any other topic on Daniel: It is not fair for you to bring in Scriptures and logic to this discussion ?. It just isn’t right Joe!!!

I went back to 2:40 and TRIED to allow my mind to clear itself and interpret this and the surrounding verses to see what they say (TO ME). And I certainly understand how easy Scriptures can be written with the identical words (translation) and still result in a few interpretations. I wish I could read / understand Hebrew AND the proper meaning of each Hebrew Word used in each verse (Hebrew words can have more than one meaning). Translations to English contribute to an already difficult understanding!

In any event, 2:40, I believe it is telling me that this 4th kingdom is represented by iron, which is a metal stronger than any of the previous 3 metals, or their associated kingdoms. Also, this seems to confirm (to me) of the sheer brutality and destruction of this iron kingdom. I don’t see this as saying it is going to crush THOSE 3 previous / specific kingdoms, but any and ALL kingdoms and peoples they encounter (a more shotgun v. single shot meaning). 

 

 

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

It will crush and break all these..... What/who  are "all these".... scripture is specific. Back up to verses 38-39....Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece are "all these". The head of gold, the chest of silver and the thighs of bronze......... Who represents these....Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. This is what scripture says.....Can we agree on that?.....Yes?

Second part is they are simply the NEXT conquering kingdom and do not have to be s conquerer of the previous 3.  One simple reason is the timing issue. Rome came into power well after the demise of the first two kingdoms. 

You are still looking at Rome being the fourth kingdom. Yes, Rome came into power well after the demise of the first three kingdoms, (not two). But scripture disputes what you say about the next conquering kingdom, that they do not have to be conquerors of the previous kingdom....you say 3, but this is future....when Christ comes and shatters and breaks into pieces all the previous kingdoms.

Joe, I don’t think they conquered the previous 3 kingdoms, but they must BE the next kingdom following Greece. Pagan Rome would indeed follow Greece and destroy, conquer and tear people of any sort in pieces. And at the end of times, Jesus will come and destroy the “image”, which represents all of man’ kingdoms, systems (religious or secular), and establish His Kingdom.

 

 

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The ONLY land that is important to God is the land of Israel.

Yes, without a doubt. I agree.

Alright Joe, I am going to have to concede with you on this one! I don’t want to but I simply can not argue with your quoted Scriptures and terrific logic here. ?

 

 

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Babylon as a kingdom, empire or power group will NEVER be reconstituted

Yes, I agree. But the fourth kingdom in King Neb's dream from Dan 2......that fourth kingdom will once again control Babylon....not reconstitute it....but control the land mass that was once Babylon. It's the fourth kingdom! 

Alright Joe, I think it’s time to take your meds!! (Really just kidding ?). I don’t think this is about land mass or Babylon proper! Although I have not studied Revelation, God is using symbolism in a similar manner. He is indeed able to identify (and certainly cause) these 4 kingdoms to arise at the exact time required to not only cover the period between the punishment of the Jews until His first coming, but He will ensure these kingdoms have the necessary characteristics and “operating” properties that will perfect His prophetic messages- both in the short and long terms. Babylon will serve as a physical kingdom/ power within God’s prophecies AND refer to their ungodly culture and practices of man for all time. 

 

 

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

This then comes together (in my mind only), that a figurative Babylon and a figurative Rome (beast) will certainly exist from the time of the crucifixion to His second coming.

Couldn't disagree more Charlie. You said so yourself.....Babylon will never be reconstituted. And Rome being the beast.......nope. Scripture is Israeli-centric.....not European-centric. 

Love the dialogue Charlie.....

Blessings

Alright Joe, love the last part here (love the dialogue)... apparently, by this time your meds have kicked in- Thank God!!! (Once again— still kidding , big time) ? 

But Rome is or should be thought of in the same way as Babylon (above). Pagan Rome was a very destructive power and they also posessed the perfect characteristics at the time of His first coming. They were the perfect physical kingdom and power in God’s prophetic plan. They have/ will also represent all of the future powers and kingdoms arising over the next 2,000 years. Babylon the head represents the “thinking, thoughts and desires” of man, while the 4th beast will represent the physical destructive and brutal practices of mankind.

These kingdoms were certainly real powers but they represent ALL that man is and will ever be WITHOUT God. 

Alright Joe, that’s my story and I am sticking to it!!

Best wishes, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Thank you for responding! I do think you are certainly in the majority. Most follow a future interpretation but may have differences on the specific identities of the 10... 

I don’t know your thoughts on the identity of the beast... but if the beast arrives near the time of Christ, should we also see the arrival of the 10 horns and the little horn? (Sooner rather than  later).

Look forward to hearing back from you, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Political Rome Destroyed:

Dan 7:11  "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 

 

Thanks Michael, good to hear from you again! I looked at this and the surrounding verses, and, unless I am interpreting this incorrectly, this might represent an expansion of the “Stone” that will come and destroy the entire image. And I also have read that some have a different interpretation of 7:12 (just in case it might come up after my comment on this), but I believe 7:12 refers back to 7:7  — after Daniel talks about the horns, he comes back to speak to what happened to the first 3 kingdoms after the 4th beast comes to power. 

Oh, just noticed this addresses the next verse you mention (just below). 
 

Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece Restrained:

Dan 7:12  As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Please see the response above which responded to the previous verse. 

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

The Seven Heads Who At Times Were Allowed To Govern God's People:

1.Egypt, 2.Assyria, 3. Babylon, 4. Medo-Persia, 5. Greece, 6. Political Rome, 7.Papal Rome. 

Unfortunately, I have not studied Revelation, so I can not comment on this verse and what it refers to or it’s meaing with Daniel. 

 

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

 

 

The Seven Together Unrestrained:

Rev 13:1  Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
 

Political Rome Revived:

Rev 13:3  And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
 

 

Unfortunately, I have to pass on these two verses as well... can not comment on your or anyone’s interpretations of verses in Revelation at this time.

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Unfortunately, I have not studied Revelation, so I can not comment on this verse and what it refers to or it’s meaing meaning with Daniel. 

WADR, Charlie744, one of the advantages of running a thread on a forum like this is the broadening of your knowledge base. Hopefully we all gain insight from our discussion of the Scriptures, whether of familiar passages or those more obscure. All we have to do is type in the browser to access the relevant material and then when weigh it up and assess its validity or not.

Understanding the synchronism of history with Biblical prophecy requires a knowledge of events in history, particularly the history of God's dealings with Israel, both prior to and after the birth of Christ. You obviously have an interest in this already so I hope my thoughts will encourage you as you broaden your knowledge and edify your soul.

[Charlie744]

Thank you Michael... by the way, what is WADR?

I have not seen this before...

In any event, I am sure you have read my opinion on those that seem to rely on their interpretations in Revelation to support Daniel’s verses. 

I also have mentioned that there can be NO discrepancies between the two books, BUT, Revelation can not drive Daniel. 

Daniel was written first and to the Jews. There are, in my opinion, maybe three periods of importance in Daniel; 

1) the historical section of Daniel providing the period from Nebuchadnezzar to perhaps the Grecian empire,

2) the historical section or period of the 4th kingdom (pagan Rome), 

3) the prophetic section or period of the 4th kingdom (beast),

In my opinion, there have been too many important verses that folks have interpreted to be applicable or pertaining to the wrong period. This will give one a very different and incorrect interpretation— BUT, it may / seem quite appropriate if they can match it to a already difficult and enigmatic chapter/verses.

Daniel must be understood FIRST... and it will provide a light to Revelation. The Jews would not have access to Revelation. 

Just my opinion.

FYI, regarding your comment that all I need to do is to “google” or search the internet for the appropriate information on Revelation, and then offer an opinion... 

That is / would be so easy to do, but I have certainly done that while studying for Daniel. And I can assure you there are more than a few significant misinterpretations that ARE in the acceptable / majority position. But when I found (quite a few times), there was some interesting differences between these same quoted scholars (many verses within all chapters in Daniel), I realized I would need to study these differences for myself, and come to my own interpretation. 

So, no, I will complete Daniel WITHOUT sourcing Revelation, and then move on to Revelation. 

If my findings in Daniel, which DO reveal some very different interpretations of most of the previously identified 11 verses or terms in Daniel, then the current interpretations of Revelation are definitely incorrect. I will take and try and understand these prophetic books in the order given.... but as I said, at the end of the day, they must agree. I have read and heard some of the interpretations of Revelation that are used to support Daniel, and, since the Daniel interpretations differ from mine, I know their Revelation interpretations are in error (for these 11 items- the important verses causing these scholars a different interpretation). 

Now, one more thing if I may - if your WADR is a condescending remark that you have coupled with your comment that I should be able to go on to the internet... there really is no need for you to respond... If I was at a party or any other social gathering, and someone spoke to me in a manner that I have seen many do to others (and this is supposed to be a Christian setting), I would simply excuse myself and get another drink or go away from those types... 

Best wishes, Charlie 

[abcdef]

On 10/2/2020 at 3:07 PM, Charlie744 said:

Great questions!!!!!! 

I will try and make one more comment re: all of this since we are / would have to get into the interpretations that I can not reveal- at this time.

As you are aware, and based some of your responses, I would estimate that some 85% of those who study Daniel believe that 11 is about AE and / or the Ptolemy rulers/empire. 

If you want to determine what are the 4 kingdoms and consequentially chapter 11, you must match up Daniel 2 to 7 to 8.

I read somewhere when God wants to emphasize something, He mentions things twice. When God wants to figuratively hit you over the head to guarantee His message gets across to you, He then mentions it 3 times!!!!

Well, God did mention the answer to these kingdoms AND the verses / chapters belonging to each through the 3 separate symbols- metal man image, the symbolic animals in 7, and then again in 8. 

If you match the 4 metal man sections across to 7 & 8 and keep the matchups PURE / CONSISTENT, you will have your answers!

Got to go, Charlie 

Dan 2:44, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, ...."

Which kings?

Does the word"kings" refer to all of the kings of the statue?

Or the kings of the ten toes ?

It doesn't say which kings it is referring to, all, or just the ten.

Pretrib says that the stone is a future coming where Jesus brings His presence to planet earth.

Preterists say that the stone is the Jesus, His ministry, and Pentecost.

It is a matter of deciding which kings that the text is speaking about.

Part of the problem is that text is 2400 years old approx., so the meaning may be foggy.

 ----------

The statue of nations is overcome by the kingdom in several ways. 

 Dan 2:44, "... it shall break in pieces and consumes all these kingdoms, ..."

Notice how this happens after the kingdom is set up.

-

When the stone strikes it is V 45, "it brake in pieces ...".

But with the additional information shown in Dan 2:35 that after the stone strikes the statue , "... became like chaff ..", "and the wind carried them away"

------

Many believe that these are the same events, the kingdom being set up, and the stone striking.

But a closer look at the statue shows that they are separate events.

The proof is the division of the legs and then the toes.

This is showing the effect of the gospel kingdom on the iron nation Rome. 

So in order for the gospel kingdom to cause these  divisions it must be "set up" on Pentecost, before the first division.

Jesus sets up the gospel kingdom on Pentecost, just after the beginning of the iron Rome.

The "consuming" is the conversion, the translation Col 1:13, into the gospel kingdom of the souls in the statue.

The consuming would be beginning before the first division, causing the future divisions, the weakening of the iron.

-

The stone striking is the second coming for salvation which completely eliminates the gentile nations.

Notice how the gentile nations are blown away by the wind (spirit) as chaff.

This would indicate that there was a harvest, a separation of wheat and chaff, and an eternal end of chaff.

The chaff and implied wheat where judged.

Accepted into the new earth or rejected as not part of the kingdom and cast away eternally.

------

It doesn't say that the stone is the kingdom or the kingdom being set up.

We assume the stone shows Jesus coming.

After the stone strikes there is the judgment and the new earth.

The thoughts about what happens after the stone strikes are usually centered on the planet earth instead of the eternal spiritual earth.

Preterists say that the gospel kingdom new covenant is shown converting every soul on the planet when it strikes. 

Pretrib says that it is the beginning of the mill period on the planet.

Neither of these can be true.

The reason is that there will always be unbelievers on this planet.

That is, when the chaff is blown away, there is never chaff again, eternally.

So this stone striking can only be the end of this planet, the final judgment, and the beginning of the new eternal earth of heaven.

 --------

So the idea that the day of Pentecost is the stone striking cannot be true.

The kingdom must be set up before the first division of the legs in order to cause the division.

With that in mind, the 10 kings period is future to the gospel kingdom being set up on Pentecost and cannot be at the time of the crucifixion.

--

 

[abcdef]

On 9/30/2020 at 8:28 PM, Charlie744 said:

2) Times, Times, Times and 1/2 Times,

9) ALL of chapter 11,

The timing of Daniel chs 11 & 12 is shown is Dan. 12:6 & 7.

In v 6 it is asked, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"

The answer is in v 7, "when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people"

This is generally seen as the 70 AD scattering into the gentile nations.

So everything in the last vision of Daniel would be done by 70 AD.

------

It has to be decided what the scattering is.

Is it the 70 AD scattering?

Or a scattering that happens at  some other time?

Pretrib wants to say that the scattering is in the middle of a 7 year period some 2400 years in the future.

This is why pretrib cannot accept that the events of ch 11 & 12 as being past and try to place the events in some future 7 period.

But then they try to make almost everything that is past into the false 7 year time period in the future.

--------

So, what is your evaluation of the scattering in v 7?

Future or past and why? 

Edited October 4, 2020 by abcdef

[Charlie744]

Ask yourself this question and you will get the answer:

What specifically is meant by “the power of the set-apart people”.  That is the key!

[abcdef]

12 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Ask yourself this question and you will get the answer:

What specifically is meant by “the power of the set-apart people”.  That is the key!

I can't read your mind. 

Why can't you just say what you mean instead of playing little head games?

We would certainly make more progress than me trying to guess what you are thinking.