Daniel 7..... the 10 horns

[Charlie744]

Your first comment is certainly correct- future to Daniel.

Not sure I understand your second comment... there were at least 6 chapters dedicated to Babylon.

Third comment... yes, Daniel knew and was there for the first two kingdoms. After those two kingdoms God did not spend much “ink” on Greece. Actually, Alexander did not have that much dealings with Israel- he did not attack or attempt to conquer or destroy them. 

So where is God’s discussion about the 4th kingdom? It is in 11, but after He tells us on 11:1 to 11:4 about the first 3 kingdoms... 

Beginning at 11:5, we see His discussion or revelation on the 4th kingdom. This is the period where He will come the first time. 

Regarding the timeline... the legs of iron, feet of clay and iron and the toes represent the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome and continues to His second coming.  

Charlie 

 

[abcdef]

18 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Your first comment is certainly correct- future to Daniel.

Not sure I understand your second comment... there were at least 6 chapters dedicated to Babylon.

 

18 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Third comment... yes, Daniel knew and was there for the first two kingdoms. After those two kingdoms God did not spend much “ink” on Greece. Actually, Alexander did not have that much dealings with Israel- he did not attack or attempt to conquer or destroy them. 

Those who followed Alexander certainly did.

AE killed 10,000's of Israel and fulfilled everything in ch 11.

 

18 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

So where is God’s discussion about the 4th kingdom? It is in 11, but after He tells us on 11:1 to 11:4 about the first 3 kingdoms... 

Beginning at 11:5, we see His discussion or revelation on the 4th kingdom. This is the period where He will come the first time. 

No, the timeline continues into the period of AE and Greece, the brass.

How do you come to the conclusion that after verse 5 is about the crucifixion period, and Rome?

 

18 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

Regarding the timeline... the legs of iron, feet of clay and iron and the toes represent the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome and continues to His second coming.  

Charlie 

 

So how does the Dan 11 time line apply to Rome in the time of Jesus?

I don't see 10 horns/toes there?

 

[Charlie744]

Great questions!!!!!! 

I will try and make one more comment re: all of this since we are / would have to get into the interpretations that I can not reveal- at this time.

As you are aware, and based some of your responses, I would estimate that some 85% of those who study Daniel believe that 11 is about AE and / or the Ptolemy rulers/empire. 

If you want to determine what are the 4 kingdoms and consequentially chapter 11, you must match up Daniel 2 to 7 to 8.

I read somewhere when God wants to emphasize something, He mentions things twice. When God wants to figuratively hit you over the head to guarantee His message gets across to you, He then mentions it 3 times!!!!

Well, God did mention the answer to these kingdoms AND the verses / chapters belonging to each through the 3 separate symbols- metal man image, the symbolic animals in 7, and then again in 8. 

If you match the 4 metal man sections across to 7 & 8 and keep the matchups PURE / CONSISTENT, you will have your answers!

Got to go, Charlie 

[abcdef]

13 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Great questions!!!!!! 

I will try and make one more comment re: all of this since we are / would have to get into the interpretations that I can not reveal- at this time.

As you are aware, and based some of your responses, I would estimate that some 85% of those who study Daniel believe that 11 is about AE and / or the Ptolemy rulers/empire. 

If you want to determine what are the 4 kingdoms and consequentially chapter 11, you must match up Daniel 2 to 7 to 8.

I read somewhere when God wants to emphasize something, He mentions things twice. When God wants to figuratively hit you over the head to guarantee His message gets across to you, He then mentions it 3 times!!!!

Well, God did mention the answer to these kingdoms AND the verses / chapters belonging to each through the 3 separate symbols- metal man image, the symbolic animals in 7, and then again in 8. 

If you match the 4 metal man sections across to 7 & 8 and keep the matchups PURE / CONSISTENT, you will have your answers!

Got to go, Charlie 

Been there, done that.

Apparently you are not willing to discuss some secret knowledge you have for some reason.

You can't discuss it if it is a secret that you do not want to tell.

My guess is that you cannot support what you believe.

Let me know when you are willing to talk about it.

 

[Charlie744]

Just got back and saw your latest post...

I am extremely surprised that you made that comment despite how much information I have provided you during the last 2 days! 

And this was AFTER you informed me TWICE that I would not know the truth.... 

I have told you why some information can not be revealed at this time but you don’t seem to want to respect that. 

Then when I give you the steps for you to uncover or recognize the answer to your question, for some reason you find it appropriate to repeat your comment “that I must not be able to support it”.

 I am going to have to agree with you- there is no way I could possibly know the TRUTH.. 

Best wishes, Charlie 

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Just got back and saw your latest post...

I am extremely surprised that you made that comment despite how much information I have provided you during the last 2 days! 

And this was AFTER you informed me TWICE that I would not know the truth.... 

No, I asked you a question, "How would you know the truth if somebody told it to you?"

I did not tell you that you did not know the truth.

The reason that I asked you that is because I have heard 100's of variations of interpretations on different scriptures.

So why should I believe you if you can't confirm it?

---------

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

I have told you why some information can not be revealed at this time but you don’t seem to want to respect that. 

Then when I give you the steps for you to uncover or recognize the answer to your question, for some reason you find it appropriate to repeat your comment “that I must not be able to support it”.

 I am going to have to agree with you- there is no way I could possibly know the TRUTH.. 

Best wishes, Charlie 

This is how it seems,

You say, " I have something that I want to discuss."

Then I say, "Ok, let's talk about it."

Then you say, "I can't tell you what I want to discuss because it is a secret."

Then how can we discuss it when you won't tell us what it is?

Do you want me to just keep guessing?

Trying to figure out what the secret is?

That is useless for me.

We do agree on certain things, but we hit a road block when talking about the horns/toes identity.

[JoeCanada]

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 

So where is God’s discussion about the 4th kingdom? It is in 11, but after He tells us on 11:1 to 11:4 about the first 3 kingdoms... 

Beginning at 11:5, we see His discussion or revelation on the 4th kingdom. This is the period where He will come the first time. 

Regarding the timeline... the legs of iron, feet of clay and iron and the toes represent the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome and continues to His second coming.  

Charlie 

 

HI Charlie,

It seems many who  try to unravel who the 4th kingdom in Daniel 2 is,  start with a  premise that it's Rome, perhaps only if it's there in the back of their mind. Maybe from old teaching.....and it's just lodged there.

But..... Here is the question.....actually 2 questions.....

Did Rome meet the criteria laid out by scripture to be the 4th kingdom?

The 4th kingdom has to crush, trample down, break and shatter ALL the kingdoms of the statue that came before it....Dan 2:40

Is this true of the Roman Empire?.....NO!....They did not crush or trample down or break and shatter the kingdoms that it captured. They ADOPTED the Greek language as the language of commerce and trade, they copied the Greek architecture instead of destroying it, and they worshipped Greek gods. 

Again.....The statue in Dan 2 is talking about the head of gold.....Nebuchadnezzar....and the land that was given him by God...Dan 2:37-38.....It's the land mass of BABYLON. The entire prophecy concerns this KINGDOM, BABYLON. 

Persia, the next empire....CONTROLLED BABYLON.

Greece, the next empire....CONTROLLED BABYLON.

Rome....it never controlled Babylon!

Islamic Caliphate......CONTROLLED BABYLON. And it crushed, trampled down, broke and shattered all the kingdoms that it invaded. It destroyed their places of worship, changed their language to Arabic, changed their calendars, forced Sharia law on their foes....and they forced their monotheistic god Allah at the point of a sword.

Which kingdom meets the criteria laid out in scripture to be the 4th kingdom....Rome or Islam?

Until a person settles this question.......there is not much sense in trying to figure out the rest of Daniel....or Revelation for that matter.

And here is the second question....

The statue is struck by a stone, which then crushed ALL portions of the statue at the same time. After it crushed the statue, the stone grew to be a mountain that filled the whole earth.

This stone is Jesus.....and He fills the whole earth at His coming....His second coming, when He destroys the kingdoms of the statue.

So....will Rome once again invade and control the middle east....and this time ACTUALLY controlling Babylon?

Will Rome crush and break and trample down and shatter all the kingdoms of Islam?

Edited October 3, 2020 by JoeCanada

[Charlie744]

Thank you Joe! As usual, your responses always give us more information to consider and ponder on.

You raise two points:

1) that the 4th kingdom will or must trample all other kingdoms OF THE metal man image, and also you commented that Rome adopted Greek culture, etc, which I assume you might mean they were not as vicious as some would think.

My initial response is to question whether Rome will or must conquer the previous and SPECIFIC 3 kingdoms... I think they conquered everything and everyone they wanted to, and without ANY conscious or concerns—- they were heartless and brutal! Second part is they are simply the NEXT conquering kingdom and do not have to be s conquerer of the previous 3.  One simple reason is the timing issue. Rome came into power well after the demise of the first two kingdoms. 

I am not sure I understand your comment that the “whole thing is about Babylon”... and specifically perhaps, “the land of Babylon”.

The ONLY land that is important to God is the land of Israel.  The “whole thing” is about God’s Plan of Salvation and how it will be eventually given to the Gentiles through these kingdoms (literally and figuratively), and also His restoration of His people back home where BOTH of these two will come together at His first coming. 

Babylon as a kingdom, empire or power group will NEVER be reconstituted! They have completed their mission. However, Babylon as a symbol of everything counter to God will ALWAYS exist until His second coming. 

2) Regarding your comment that the “Stone” will crush the metal man image... agreed! I believe this means that He will destroy ALL of man’ kingdoms and their false gods (and this means our new cars, houses or jobs, etc., anything we worship other than Him. I don’t think this speaks about Him destroying  a reconstituted Roman Empire. I believe the beast began as pagan Rome and would take many different forms and peoples over the next 2,000 years. 

This then comes together (in my mind only), that a figurative Babylon and a figurative Rome (beast) will certainly exist from the time of the crucifixion to His second coming.

Joe, just my thoughts! Thank you again, Charlie 

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you Joe! As usual, your responses always give us more information to consider and ponder on.

You raise two points:

1) that the 4th kingdom will or must trample all other kingdoms OF THE metal man image, and also you commented that Rome adopted Greek culture, etc, which I assume you might mean they were not as vicious as some would think.

My initial response is to question whether Rome will or must conquer the previous and SPECIFIC 3 kingdoms... I think they conquered everything and everyone they wanted to, and without ANY conscious or concerns—- they were heartless and brutal! Second part is they are simply the NEXT conquering kingdom and do not have to be s conquerer of the previous 3.  One simple reason is the timing issue. Rome came into power well after the demise of the first two kingdoms. 

I am not sure I understand your comment that the “whole thing is about Babylon”... and specifically perhaps, “the land of Babylon”.

The ONLY land that is important to God is the land of Israel.  The “whole thing” is about God’s Plan of Salvation and how it will be eventually given to the Gentiles through these kingdoms (literally and figuratively), and also His restoration of His people back home where BOTH of these two will come together at His first coming. 

Babylon as a kingdom, empire or power group will NEVER be reconstituted! They have completed their mission. However, Babylon as a symbol of everything counter to God will ALWAYS exist until His second coming. 

2) Regarding your comment that the “Stone” will crush the metal man image... agreed! I believe this means that He will destroy ALL of man’ kingdoms and their false gods (and this means our new cars, houses or jobs, etc., anything we worship other than Him. I don’t think this speaks about Him destroying  a reconstituted Roman Empire. I believe the beast began as pagan Rome and would take many different forms and peoples over the next 2,000 years. 

This then comes together (in my mind only), that a figurative Babylon and a figurative Rome (beast) will certainly exist from the time of the crucifixion to His second coming.

Joe, just my thoughts! Thank you again, Charlie 

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for your responses. It's great to dialogue with a brother that engages with a calm spirit. Iron sharpens iron.

My initial response is to question whether Rome will or must conquer the previous and SPECIFIC 3 kingdoms

We have to go by what scripture says, and not let our own interpretation guide us. So, what does scripture say:

"Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces."...Dan 2:40

It will crush and break all these..... What/who  are "all these".... scripture is specific. Back up to verses 38-39....Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece are "all these". The head of gold, the chest of silver and the thighs of bronze......... Who represents these....Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. This is what scripture says.....Can we agree on that?.....Yes?

Second part is they are simply the NEXT conquering kingdom and do not have to be s conquerer of the previous 3.  One simple reason is the timing issue. Rome came into power well after the demise of the first two kingdoms. 

You are still looking at Rome being the fourth kingdom. Yes, Rome came into power well after the demise of the first three kingdoms, (not two). But scripture disputes what you say about the next conquering kingdom, that they do not have to be conquerors of the previous kingdom....you say 3, but this is future....when Christ comes and shatters and breaks into pieces all the previous kingdoms.

The ONLY land that is important to God is the land of Israel.

Yes, without a doubt. I agree.

Babylon as a kingdom, empire or power group will NEVER be reconstituted

Yes, I agree. But the fourth kingdom in King Neb's dream from Dan 2......that fourth kingdom will once again control Babylon....not reconstitute it....but control the land mass that was once Babylon. It's the fourth kingdom! 

This then comes together (in my mind only), that a figurative Babylon and a figurative Rome (beast) will certainly exist from the time of the crucifixion to His second coming.

Couldn't disagree more Charlie. You said so yourself.....Babylon will never be reconstituted. And Rome being the beast.......nope. Scripture is Israeli-centric.....not European-centric. 

Love the dialogue Charlie.....

Blessings

[Dennis1209]

On 9/28/2020 at 10:41 PM, Charlie744 said:

During my study of Daniel 7, there are 10 horns that arise from the beast. Sometime later, another little horn will surface (but have different characteristics) and this little horn will pluck up 3 of the original 10. 

Almost all of the scholars agree these 10 represent 10 kingdoms or powers THAT WILL COME TO POWER (still) IN THE FUTURE. 

Question: Even though we have not been successful in identifying the 10 horns (near the beginning of the 4th kingdom), does the language in Daniel support the view that these 10 horns are / should / must / need to be present or arise either before, during or close after the crucifixion, as opposed to the far future period? 

Thank you, Charlie 

 

 

My view is it is yet future [near future]. My life long view has been the scholastic traditional one; that it's probably a 10 nation European state / confederation. We see the flux in Europe at present, will the huge influx of Muslims, Europe's socialist policies and economic woes. I still hold that view, however...

I believe the United Nations has to be the major player for a new world order; their policies and agenda is crystal clear. The U.N. has divided the globe into ten economic trading zones and currently, there's a plethora of global trade agreements and laws. 

However it turns out, I suspect we will be hearing about it before too long.