What is a "soul?"

[Charlie744]

30 minutes ago, David1701 said:

The issue being discussed is whether or not our soul/spirit leaves our physical body at death.  Your post does not address the issue but attempts to make "absent from the body" refer merely to being absent from the pre-resurrection state of the body, rather than what the text actually states, which is, straightforwardly, to be absent from the body.

To be absent from the body, clearly means just that - to be away from the physical body.   This is obviously after death and before the resurrection.

In the grave the dead know nothing, because it is the physical body that is in the grave, not the soul/spirit.

Your post comes across as a rather desperate attempt to obfuscate.

David, the way I interpret “absent from the body” is to make sure we include the word “rather”...

I understand Paul to speak not that we are with our Lord after the moment of death, but he is saying that he would RATHER be with the Lord than in the body.

Paul could not imagine anything on this earth that could compare to being with the Lord and as you are aware, Paul was willing to endure any pain or sacrifice for the Lord.

I look like to your comments, thanks, Charlie 

[Frits]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Hello again Frits, I trust you and your family had a nice holiday.

Would you mind telling me why you have such a strong feeling about the concept of what I will call the “2nd death” v eternal punishment?

Thanks and look forward to your thoughts! Charlie 

Thank you Charlie, we had a very nice weekend with all our children.  We laughed a lot, had a good meal and cuddled with the little ones.

I will now go into what you call "2nd death" v eternal punishment.
But before I do that, I want to reiterate for the sake of clarity that my own position and belief is that enemies of Jesus Christ, "the man of sin," the anti-Christ, will undergo everlasting punishment.  

Then now:

The second death, as you rightly call it, is the lake of fire, and unlike the first death, which is temporary, the second death is eternal.
De facto, the second death means THE eternal punishment!  It is not that everything that comes in the second death is destroyed until every element is brought to "zero", and so after a long long time the punishment is over with no remnant or "worm".  No, the lake of fire is not grandma's stove that goes out at night.  Neither devil nor man is able to rise from or escape from the second death!  Death as well as the realm of the dead (Hades) eventually end up in the lake of fire.  It is an eternal abode under torment that is prepared for the devil, but in which also comes 'the man of sin' the anti-christ.  (Mt 15:41)

In the second death, the 'destruction' of the being of man, so his spirit, soul and (spiritual) body remains eternally damaged, BECAUSE THE LORD JESUS DOES NOT VISIT THE POOL OF FIRE, as He has done to Hades, to preach His Gospel of RESTORATION.
Therefore from the second death there can't be any restoration.

Annihilism has corrupted a number of names in church history and later pulled many behind it, sometimes even entire denominations including JW.
What matters to me is the why and the effect(!) of this fallacy:

Anyone who learns that the punishment in the final judgment can last a very long time but is ultimately finite, takes it into account that way. This sinner calls himself a Christian, but is not so concerned with sin, believing that the penalty for sin will ever come to an end.  Is that why in some "churches" there is so much sin and there are often reports of deception, fraud and child abuse?  Annihilism is devilish and among the children of God a murderous false doctrine!

Bro, I wish you the blessing of our Lord Jezus Christ.

[etymology]

27 minutes ago, Frits said:

Thank you Charlie, we had a very nice weekend with all our children.  We laughed a lot, had a good meal and cuddled with the little ones.

I will now go into what you call "2nd death" v eternal punishment.
But before I do that, I want to reiterate for the sake of clarity that my own position and belief is that enemies of Jesus Christ, "the man of sin," the anti-Christ, will undergo everlasting punishment.  

Then now:

The second death, as you rightly call it, is the lake of fire, and unlike the first death, which is temporary, the second death is eternal.
De facto, the second death means THE eternal punishment!  It is not that everything that comes in the second death is destroyed until every element is brought to "zero", and so after a long long time the punishment is over with no remnant or "worm".  No, the lake of fire is not grandma's stove that goes out at night.  Neither devil nor man is able to rise from or escape from the second death!  Death as well as the realm of the dead (Hades) eventually end up in the lake of fire.  It is an eternal abode under torment that is prepared for the devil, but in which also comes 'the man of sin' the anti-christ.  (Mt 15:41)

In the second death, the 'destruction' of the being of man, so his spirit, soul and (spiritual) body remains eternally damaged, BECAUSE THE LORD JESUS DOES NOT VISIT THE POOL OF FIRE, as He has done to Hades, to preach His Gospel of RESTORATION.
Therefore from the second death there can't be any restoration.

Annihilism has corrupted a number of names in church history and later pulled many behind it, sometimes even entire denominations including JW.
What matters to me is the why and the effect(!) of this fallacy:

Anyone who learns that the punishment in the final judgment can last a very long time but is ultimately finite, takes it into account that way. This sinner calls himself a Christian, but is not so concerned with sin, believing that the penalty for sin will ever come to an end.  Is that why in some "churches" there is so much sin and there are often reports of deception, fraud and child abuse?  Annihilism is devilish and among the children of God a murderous false doctrine!

Bro, I wish you the blessing of our Lord Jezus Christ.

In so far as I know there are only three named individuals to whom the sentence of the second death is allotted in Scripture. They are, as you say, the devil, the falsie prophet and the man of sin or antichrist. Of these three only one is angelic by origination and the other two are men born of women. All three are possessed by strong demonic spirits at the time they are judged. Yet Satan is already judged so he doesn't go to the lake of fire when the strong demonic spirits are removed from his being, but to the bottomless pit. His lake of fire judgement takes place after the allotted time. We could say a similar thing about the false prophet and the antichrist because we already know there end. 

Trying to assert an end to judgement, as some do, insofar as they cite that judgement means to be annihilated, simply removes and true accountability for the harm that men do when their misdeeds cause so much harm in the churches. That would mean in the type you have stated and much much worse than those also. Having a reason to hold to the belief in eternal consequences is a simple matter for the devil and the false prophet and the antichrist - but brethren are increasingly shrinking back from recognising that whilst only three individuals are named to be sentenced to the second death an entire judgement seat is revealed that expresses an unnamed and numberless fact of others according to their works - yet ratified by whether their name is written in the book of life. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by etymology
Added ratified and so on.

[Charlie744]

30 minutes ago, etymology said:

In so far as I know there are only three named individuals to whom the sentence of the second death is allotted in Scripture. They are, as you say, the devil, the falsie prophet and the man of sin or antichrist. Of these three only one is angelic by origination and the other two are men born of women. All three are possessed by strong demonic spirits at the time they are judged. Yet Satan is already judged so he doesn't go to the lake of fire when the strong demonic spirits are removed from his being, but to the bottomless pit. His lake of fire judgement takes place after the allotted time. We could say a similar thing about the false prophet and the antichrist because we already know there end. 

Trying to assert an end to judgement, as some do, insofar as they cite that judgement means to be annihilated, simply removes and true accountability for the harm that men do when their misdeeds cause so much harm in the churches. That would mean in the type you have stated and much much worse than those also. Having a reason to hold to the belief in eternal consequences is a simple matter for the devil and the false prophet and the antichrist - but brethren are increasingly shrinking back from recognising that whilst only three individuals are named to be sentenced to the second death an entire judgement seat is revealed that expresses an unnamed and numberless fact of others according to their works - yet ratified by whether their name is written in the book of life. 

Thank you and I think I might understand....(maybe).

Are you saying that the degree of damage, murder and every horrific experience or event in mankind’s history is the basis for an eternal punishING as opposed to an eternal death (no longer an existence)?

Hope I understand this correctly. If that is the case then I would comment that this “basis” is a view at man’s level- we have a tendency to want the “death penalty” when our loved ones are harmed... we want the most severe kind of punishment.

 I would say that at the time of judgement, for those not in Christ, they will immediately be COMPLETELY aware and understanding of the Holiness of God, and then in the next millisecond they will also be aware they will never be with Him in eternity - I can not imagine anything worse! And I don’t believe God NEEDS to punish them for ever or for day a million years ... 

He knows there is nothing more severe than their not being with Him... it is just impossible ... I believe the 2nd death is just that- man would “surely die”. His physical body returns to the earth. That is his first death and at the judgement day he will be restored but will not be able to survive in the presence of the Lord- He is a consuming fire but only for those not in Christ. 

Anyway, I started to ramble on with my opinion and really wanted to ensure I understood your post.

PS. I believe that what will happen at the end is to restore the beginning. We were able to be with the Lord in the Garden because we had be given a body and His Spirit. At the resurrection of those in Christ He will once again restore His Spirit within us and we will be with Him forever / again! 

Certainly look forward to your response / thoughts... this “soul” topic is so interesting and has at least a few different interpretations... I heard of the Law of First mention that is important in interpreting / understanding Scripture. So, Genesis then will tell us the components or make up of man... whatever is found in Genesis can never be contradicted anywhere in the Scriptures. If Genesis has two components to make a “living soul”, then all subsequent verses have to be interpreted the same... and we will/may have to reread or reinterpret those subsequent verses that seemingly speak of 3 parts (if that is what Genesis says).

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

David, the way I interpret “absent from the body” is to make sure we include the word “rather”...

I understand Paul to speak not that we are with our Lord after the moment of death, but he is saying that he would RATHER be with the Lord than in the body.

Paul could not imagine anything on this earth that could compare to being with the Lord and as you are aware, Paul was willing to endure any pain or sacrifice for the Lord.

I look like to your comments, thanks, Charlie 

It's a case of "both ... and", rather than "either ... or".  Yes, we would definitely rather be with the Lord than in the body; but, it's also true that we go to be with the Lord, as soon as we leave the body (unless the Lord returns first!).

[Charlie744]

25 minutes ago, David1701 said:

It's a case of "both ... and", rather than "either ... or".  Yes, we would definitely rather be with the Lord than in the body; but, it's also true that we go to be with the Lord, as soon as we leave the body (unless the Lord returns first!).

Thanks David! Would you mind letting me know if this verse is the primary verse for your belief that we are with the Lord immediately upon death.... I am sure you have more... 

But there are many verses that speak of the “dead know nothing”, and they are “sleeping” not dead.

As you know the Scriptures can not contradict itself so something has to give... 

Perhaps we (no, not me, but scholars, theologians, etc.), have found that by splitting the “components” of man they are able to accomplish both? That is, the body dies but His spirit and / or his soul continues on ... 

Just trying to understand different views that are not contradictory from Genesis to Revelation (not saying folks in this topic have a problem with keeping the integrity of their interpretations throughout the Scriptures)..

The folks who have been responding within this topic are very knowledgeable and intelligent.... yet there still some differences... 

Thanks, Charlie 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Charlie744

[David1701]

14 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I asked this question earlier and don't think I got an answer from whoever it was I asked. And forgive me if you've already addressed this (you know how I disdain others doing so ), 

Do either of you think the "body" being referenced in 2 Cor. 5 is the individual's body of flesh and blood? 

Yes, definitely.

2 Cor. 5:1-6 (VW)

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in Heaven.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our dwelling place out of Heaven,
3 if indeed, being clothed, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who has fashioned us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.

This is clearly referring to our flesh and blood body, using figurative language.

[Alive]

David--what translation is this VW?

[David1701]

14 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks David! Would you mind letting me know if this verse is the primary verse for your belief that we are with the Lord immediately upon death.... I am sure you have more... 

But there are many verses that speak of the “dead know nothing”, and they are “sleeping” not dead.

As you know the Scriptures can not contradict itself so something has to give... 

Perhaps we (no, not me, but scholars, theologians, etc.), have found that by splitting the “components” of man they are able to accomplish both? That is, the body dies but His spirit and / or his soul continues on ... 

Just trying to understand different views that are not contradictory from Genesis to Revelation (not saying folks in this topic have a problem with keeping the integrity of their interpretations throughout the Scriptures)..

The folks who have been responding within this topic are very knowledgeable and intelligent.... yet there still some differences... 

Thanks, Charlie 

Here's a clear verse teaching that our spirit leaves our body, at death.

Ecc. 12:6,7 (VW)

6 or before the silver cord is loosed, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern;
7 then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

The verses that speak of the dead knowing nothing are referring to our physical bodies, in the grave; not our spirits, which remain fully conscious after physical death.

Luke 16:19-31 (WEB)

19 “Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. 
20 A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, 
21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 
22 It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. 
23 In Hades , he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. 
24 He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’ 
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. 
26 Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 
27 “He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; 
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’ 
29 “But Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ 
30 “He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 
31 “He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’” 

Incidentally, this passage is not a parable, since people are never named in parables, nor do they include known characters (like Abraham and Moses).

[Alive]

1 minute ago, David1701 said:

The verses that speak of the dead knowing nothing are referring to our physical bodies, in the grave; not our spirits, which remain fully conscious after physical death.

I see a problem here with this statement. If you see the body as a part of the whole, then the body of dirt itself never does know anything.