What is a "soul?"

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you for responding David. However, can / would you be willing to address my 2:7 question?

This is the first mention of a “soul” and where God identifies the two components. 

This is the BEGINNING so we should not be concerned with context, historical setting, audience, etc. This begins everything- this is Scripture.

Can you let me know your thoughts on what you believe “B” is?

 Thank you, Charlie 

Gen. 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Literally, it is "...the breath of lives...", in other words, this was not only physical breath and physical life; but also the spiritual breath, giving life to the inner man and all that entails.

What this means is that, in this case, "living soul" refers to the totality of man, as he was originally created, including both outer and inner man.  This should not be taken to imply that "soul" always means this, everywhere it is found in the Bible.

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, David1701 said:

Gen. 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Thank you David.

4 hours ago, David1701 said:

Literally, it is "...the breath of lives...", in other words, this was not only physical breath and physical life; but also the spiritual breath, giving life to the inner man and all that entails.

Ok... here we are... what is this “spiritual breath”? My take on this response is the “breath” has two components or even purposes.... It will give the physical what it needs to “live” (all would / should agree with this), but what is that  + something that is also included in His breath? 

Is this “His Spirit” that He imparts within us which separates man from all other creatures and is what He has added that makes us in His image?

I am going to preempt you a little here (sorry), but I don’t believe this is just an ability for man to BE spiritual (to add a little bit of fun here, I can assure you, that at times my two dogs think of me in a spiritual way—- in fact, I am striving to be the kind of person my dogs think I am! Never going to happen).

Back to this.... is this + something a special/unique gift by God that is “just an ability” to be spiritual or religious or be aware of a higher power or something so “tangible” given by God which unfortunately we lost (therefore I might say it can not be the former since it was lost and we still are able to recognize a higher power).

David, in my opinion, this is where the rubber really meets the road! This is where AND when we must understand what God is telling us about His creation of man - what has He done APART from His creation of all other creatures? 

Charlie 

 

4 hours ago, David1701 said:

What this means is that, in this case, "living soul" refers to the totality of man, as he was originally created, including both outer and inner man.  This should not be taken to imply that "soul" always means this, everywhere it is found in the Bible.

At this time of this discussion AND at this time in His creation, we do not need to look down the road to see if a “living soul” or “living being” mentioned later in the Bible will meet our definition determined in Genesis (cart before the horse). 

So, given the above I would welcome any further thoughts!!! Charlie 

[David1701]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

Amen. In fact there are many words that are used quite diversely in scripture. The words "death," and "salvation" are both words used with many meanings, meanings that are decided by the context. 

Agreed.

[David1701]

16 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you David.

Ok... here we are... what is this “spiritual breath”? My take on this response is the “breath” has two components or even purposes.... It will give the physical what it needs to “live” (all would / should agree with this), but what is that  + something that is also included in His breath? 

Is this “His Spirit” that He imparts within us which separates man from all other creatures and is what He has added that makes us in His image?

I am going to preempt you a little here (sorry), but I don’t believe this is just an ability for man to BE spiritual (to add a little bit of fun here, I can assure you, that at times my two dogs think of me in a spiritual way—- in fact, I am striving to be the kind of person my dogs think I am! Never going to happen).

Back to this.... is this + something a special/unique gift by God that is “just an ability” to be spiritual or religious or be aware of a higher power or something so “tangible” given by God which unfortunately we lost (therefore I might say it can not be the former since it was lost and we still are able to recognize a higher power).

David, in my opinion, this is where the rubber really meets the road! This is where AND when we must understand what God is telling us about His creation of man - what has He done APART from His creation of all other creatures? 

Charlie 

 

At this time of this discussion AND at this time in His creation, we do not need to look down the road to see if a “living soul” or “living being” mentioned later in the Bible will meet our definition determined in Genesis (cart before the horse). 

So, given the above I would welcome any further thoughts!!! Charlie 

There is nothing to suggest that the Holy Spirit indwelt Adam.

Apart from his physical life, Adam would have had emotional, reasoning and spiritual capabilities (at least the ability to fellowship with God).

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

There is nothing to suggest that the Holy Spirit indwelt Adam.

Apart from his physical life, Adam would have had emotional, reasoning and spiritual capabilities (at least the ability to fellowship with God).

Thank you David! Would you mind giving your thoughts on the “shroud or covering” that surrounded both Adam and Eve? What was it? Where and when did they get it? And why does the Scripture tell us they lost it?

This is a great topic and there are so many interesting responses and comments here!

Thanks again, Charlie  

[David1701]

12 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you David! Would you mind giving your thoughts on the “shroud or covering” that surrounded both Adam and Eve? What was it? Where and when did they get it? And why does the Scripture tell us they lost it?

This is a great topic and there are so many interesting responses and comments here!

Thanks again, Charlie  

The Bible says that Adam and Eve were naked but unashamed; however, the word translated "naked", in that context, is different from the one used after they fell.  The first word can mean "partially covered", which is what I assume you are referring to.

They first realised that they were completely naked (as contrasted with partially covered), after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  I cannot prove it; but I suspect that the partial covering they had to begin with was the glory of God, which they lost when they sinned.

[suzan344]

On 10/23/2020 at 11:20 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

Slightly rearranging the words into English order (subject-verb-direct-object), we get ...

7 And YHWH (the LORD) God formed the red [man] of dust from the red [ground] and puffed into his nostrils a puff of living [things] and the red [man] became into a living, air-breathing creature. 

So, similar to how a person is revived by a person trained in CPR, God puffed the puff of life into the first Man. HOWEVER, He puffed the puff of life into the first MAN, not "the body of the Man!" Hebrew has words that mean "body," like "geviyah" (meaning a "lifeless corpse"), if that's what God wanted to say. He didn't say that, though!

Trying to follow your translations here, I noted that this red man had living creatures breathed into him.  Did you catch that?

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, suzan344 said:

Trying to follow your translations here, I noted that this red man had living creatures breathed into him.  Did you catch that?

Shalom, suzan344.

I caught it; I think I'll throw it back.  No, he had the PUFF of living creatures breathed into him. Understand? It's not anything special; what the Scriptures told us is that the SAME KIND OF PUFF OF AIR was puffed into the red man that God puffed into the living creatures before the man was made.

Remember: SIBKIS. See it big; keep it simple.

[suzan344]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, suzan344.

I caught it; I think I'll throw it back.  No, he had the PUFF of living creatures breathed into him. Understand? It's not anything special; what the Scriptures told us is that the SAME KIND OF PUFF OF AIR was puffed into the red man that God puffed into the living creatures before the man was made.

Remember: SIBKIS. See it big; keep it simple.

Sorry, did you just say God has puffed living creatures into everyone?

OK.  Will stop giving you a bad time about this.  

If you like my opinion on what happened....

It is...

God named Adam and then later when Adam was on earth, that name became 'red (or rubby) man'.  I just don't see the color 'red' as applicable to the original Adam who I feel was not made of flesh and bone and hence had no color associated with him in the garden.

The second point, which is far fetched I understand to people but not to me, is that there are living beings (creatures) in Heaven that God uses.

Since this may be the only passage in the Bible that references them as coming from God in a 'puff' snd then going into Adam, who is already formed, I feel at this juncture in his creation, and changing him from a living being to a living soul (I suspect), I can only speculate from here on out what they really are.

I will state they make up what we call the Tree of Life and I feel that they are they are the hidden manna (Rev. 2:7 and 2:17) mentioned in Revelations too.

Rev. 2:7 speaks of 'eating' living creatures.

"Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."

Rev. 2:17 speaks of hidden manna:

Rev. 2:17

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will give the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone inscribed with a new name, known only to the one who receives it."

Conclusion

God used a form of power that requires he breathe out something that is within himself, that is intelligent and self alive (self aware) and can be referred to as animate (having life), into Adam.

This made Adam immortal and hence a God.

This creature came originally from the Tree of Life.  But it resided in God himself eventually.

So now we know how Heaven functions.

Hint:  What is the human spirit once it enters Paradise, per the Jew's view?

I can speculate further upon request.

Edited January 2, 2021 by suzan344

[Retrobyter]

On 12/27/2020 at 10:57 PM, Josheb said:

This is the crux of the issue. Although the Greek term "psychen" is used in Matthew 10:28 we must remember this is a Greek translation of what Jesus said in Aramaic speaking as a Jew. A more accurate English translation would be "Don't fear those who can kill (only) the body; fear the One who can destroy both body and being in the afterlife." 

Shabbat shalom, Josheb.

You scare me a little, brother; what you write as "psychen" I would write as "psucheen" (spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-eta-nu" and pronounced "psoo-chane' " with the "ch" as in the Scottish word "loch"). And, you must know that the "-een" ending is the feminine ending for the accusative case. The Greek translation of what Yeshua` said in Aramaic is accurate. "Don't fear those who can kill (only) the body; fear the One who can destroy both body (now) and AIR-BREATHING-CREATED-BEING in the Valley of Hinnom (in the future)." That last part is talking about the JUDGMENT when the unjust are raised to life again in the Second Resurrection to be judged! (See Revelation 20:11-15.) The Greek word "Ge-enna" is a transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, "Gei-Hinnom." It's the valley southeast of the Old City of Jerusalem just outside its wall where kings used to set up their judgment seats to hear the evidence for crimes and pass sentence. The ones found guilty would be put on the king's left and taken to the trash heap there to be executed. Those found not guilty would be placed on his right side and allowed to go back into the city through the king's gate.

On 12/27/2020 at 10:57 PM, Josheb said:

Jesus was not teaching in the Greek language.
Jesus was not teaching from a Greek culture. 
Jesus was not teaching pagan mythology.

Parallels between "psychen" and lenepes" are not equivalent; overlapping, but not equivalent.

Well, here, you have the HEBREW (and Aramaic) word "lenepes" which I would write as "l-nefesh." This is how it was written in Genesis 2:7, but that's because of the grammar of the Hebrew language. See, the letter "pei" (pronounced "pay") in Hebrew is like our letter "p"; HOWEVER, if the letter is not at the beginning of the word (and it's not in Genesis 2:7), then to remain a "pei," the letter must have a dagesh, that is, a dot in the center of the letter. Without the dagesh, the letter is called a "fei" and has the "f" sound, which is why I transliterate it with an "f." When a Hebrew (or Aramaic) word is written as you wrote it, "lenepes," the "p" might be marked to show that the sound is really the "ph" sound as in "phone." The "s" at the end should also be marked, usually with a carot under the "s," to show that the sound is the "sh" sound. The "l-" prefix, meaning "to" or "into" at the beginning of the word, actually has the shvaa' under it (looking like a small colon under the letter), which is a schwa sound and not truly an "e" in transliteration. God made the man "INTO an air-breathing-creature."

On 12/27/2020 at 10:57 PM, Josheb said:

There is no "spirit " in Genesis 2:7. Neither is there any mention of "spirit" in Matthew 10:28. Note also Jesus is not saying fear the loss of your body and being; he is saying fear God! It is God who can DESTROY. The larger context is The Creator spoke everything into existence... and He can speak it out of existence, too. Not even a single sparrow dies without His consent. Are you not more valuable than a sparrow? 

I really don't have much of a problem with any of this portion.

On 12/27/2020 at 10:57 PM, Josheb said:

Notice how no one here has considered the larger contexts of Mt. 10:28? 

If they called Jesus Beelzebul, they're going to do worse to you. They're going to filet the skin of my back with a scourge, beat me senseless, probably sodomize me with a variety of foreign objects, nail me - nail me, not tie me - to a cross and leave me hanging stripped of my clothing in the heat of the day while people mock and ridicule me, and the birds and bugs..... 

...but they're going to do worse to you. 

Most of you they are going to kill, too. James? They're gonna cut off your head with a sword. Stephen? You are gonna be stoned. You ever been stoned? You ever been to a stoning? It hurts. If you're blessed the first rock or two will render you unconscious  before they first crack and then pulverize your skull into bits but remember these folks know how to make it last. Arms and legs first. Broken so you can't stand, run, or walk away in escape (not that the surrounding crowd would let you go anywhere). Peter? Andrew? They're going to crucify you two, too, but they're gonna hang you, Peter, upside down so the blood pools in your head adding to the misery of your death. 

But do not fear those who can kill your body. It's gonna happen. You cannot avoid it. You too were chosen for this purpose so remember that not even a single sparrow falls to the ground with my Father's consent. He is the Guy you need to fear, not them, because He can destroy your body AND and your being. 

If you don't have a being then you do not be. 

If you don't be then you don't be. It is the ultimate crickets chirping. Except you're not around to not hear it . 

Jesus is not giving a lesson on human ontology. This should not be difficult to understand, nor much of a debate. 

While there is some merit to your argument here, what is the point of YHWH God bringing a person back to life just to judge him or her and kill him or her all over again? Yet, we see in both Revelation 20:11-15 and in ...

Isaiah 66:23-24 (KJV)

23 "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me," saith the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH).

24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm (Hebrew: towlatam) shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

Some say that the word "towlatam," translated "their worm," refers to "their torso!" Also, note that "they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." They are THERE purely to remind one of God's righteous Judgment, and the viewers will be looking upon them with disgust and loathing every month and every Shabbat ("sabbath")!