What is a "soul?"

[Retrobyter]

On 1/15/2021 at 9:57 PM, Josheb said:

Next time leave out the excuses. 

Shalom, Josheb.

There won't be a "next time." At least, not without the arbitration of someone more mature than you.

On 1/15/2021 at 9:57 PM, Josheb said:

Go read my op on correction. 

No thanks. I'll do just fine without it.

On 1/15/2021 at 9:57 PM, Josheb said:

It is a matter of maturity in Christ to be able to expect others to note flaws in the posts. It is a matter of maturity in Christ to accept valid, just correction even if and when it comes wrapped unkindly.

Turn it around and see if the reverse in our parts is also true. Unkindness comes in many disguises.

On 1/15/2021 at 9:57 PM, Josheb said:

We're responsible to whatever truth lies therein; the message, not the messenger. The Messenger is often the Holy Spirit working through seriously flawed and finite (albeit redeemed and regenerate) creatures. It is a matter of maturity to trust all correction is a manifestation of Romans 8:28 and trust our siblings do so with the goals of Ephesians 4:12-16 in mind even if we're peers and not leaders over one another because the peer-standard is Ephesians 4:29-32 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17 applied through 1 Cor. 13:4-7. 

Absolutely correct! We ARE INDEED responsible to the truth that lies within God's Word! We are also responsible to the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God), no matter HOW seriously flawed and finite we are!

Regarding trusting our siblings to "correct me" is something I've had to leave behind. They keep speaking in the old rhetoric, from which there is no escape, because those words are considered "holy words" and "anointed words," even though they are STRICTLY OF HUMAN INVENTION! I've felt like Jan Hus (John Huss) ordered to recant when he had NOTHING of which to recant, back in 1415!

I'm not big on trusting people no matter WHO they are or think they are. I've been errantly and scathingly rebuked worse than by you! No, I'll wait until the Lord Yeshua` returns and we stand before Him in judgment together and hear what HE has to say. I will GLADLY defer to His judgment, because HE knows me intimately well! I've learned that humans, even supposed "children of God," do not live according to Ephesians 4, 2 Timothy 3, or 1 Corinthians 13 very well, ESPECIALLY when they've been in positions of perceived power, such as pastors who can no longer be taught.

On 1/15/2021 at 9:57 PM, Josheb said:

And no one here should ever construe a single word I ever write in any other light, even if I do so imperfectly.

Fine, but more is coming when you say,...

On 1/15/2021 at 9:57 PM, Josheb said:

1. The Hebrew is not air-breathing; it is air-breathed.
2. The Hebrew and Greek are not identical terms and ...
3. while there is overlap neither is a whole reflection of what Jesus taught;
4. that which is incomplete is incorrect. It is incorrect because it is incomplete. 

A car with one tire on the right front and another on the left rear will not get you down the road correctly or safely. All four tires are needed. Jesus added very real and importantly substantive information to the matter of the soul and while I very much value your knowledge of Hebrew it is not entirely correct. 

See, I understand this VERY differently because of going back to the origins of the words, and noting that Yeshua` didn't NEED to "add very real and importantly substantive information to the matter of the soul!" The "nefesh" was known quite well throughout the Tanakh, and Yeshua` didn't "ADD" a thing! If anything, He was trying to get the leaders of Yhudah to go BACK to a better understanding of things! They were already being influenced by Greek philosophy because of Antiochus' attempt to Hellenize the children of Israel, prior to 164 B.C!

Thus, that which was "added," those bodies of "very real and importantly substantive information to the matter of the soul," were IMPOSED upon His words and the words of the whole Bible by Platonists in the second and third Centuries, when such philosophy was revered and respected as sophisticated!

On 1/15/2021 at 9:57 PM, Josheb said:

The tripartite model of humans is useful but not wholly correct and the unified view in which no one constituent part can be removed without the loss of the whole is the better, more accurate, more scripturally consistent view of the human. 

I agree with you, except that I don't even find the tripartite model useful. I think it HOLDS US BACK from better understandings of God's Word!

On 1/15/2021 at 9:57 PM, Josheb said:

And while you and I may have areas of agreement greater than others here, where there is disagreement with the above we will have to agree to disagree because repeating the same content ad nauseam is not an argument for or against anything new. I'll see you in the next op. 

Yes, we can agreeably agree to disagree.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Thank you very much for explaining your beliefs to me.   I have tried to understand life and death this way but I just don't see the scriptures saying this.  But thank you for taking the time to explain to me how you arrived there.  I pray you are mistaken on this.  My belief is sooooo much more pleasant, and living.    

As this is off subject, I will thank you again and let it go.  

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Thank you, sister, for your kind words.

You needn't worry. I strongly doubt I'll be able to convince many people against the well-ingrained, common belief of "going to heaven when one dies." This is ESPECIALLY true in light of popular funerals, like that of Billy Graham. The same ol' statements will probably be reinforced at every funeral until the Lord comes back.

I believe that it will be in 200 to 250 years from now that Yeshua` actually returns, but whenever He returns we will have our answer. No one will even need to ask. It will be clear to those who are resurrected, and their reactions will be clear to those who had not died, yet, at that time.

To allay any fears you may have had, you've not been "off topic" since we are talking about what a "soul" is, and it seems this is fundamental to understanding the resurrection.

Again, may the Lord bless you.

[DeighAnn]

17 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Thank you, sister, for your kind words.

You needn't worry. I strongly doubt I'll be able to convince many people against the well-ingrained, common belief of "going to heaven when one dies." This is ESPECIALLY true in light of popular funerals, like that of Billy Graham. The same ol' statements will probably be reinforced at every funeral until the Lord comes back.

I believe that it will be in 200 to 250 years from now that Yeshua` actually returns, but whenever He returns we will have our answer. No one will even need to ask. It will be clear to those who are resurrected, and their reactions will be clear to those who had not died, yet, at that time.

To allay any fears you may have had, you've not been "off topic" since we are talking about what a "soul" is, and it seems this is fundamental to understanding the resurrection.

Again, may the Lord bless you.

I agree that no matter what happens, it doesn't change anything as waking up from sleeping is probably much the same as instantly, maybe.  I just don't see myself dying, ever.  Never have.  Just stepping out of this flesh that is presently a cover for my spiritual body. Kinda like a seed planted in the earth and when it dies I am set free.  

We know we will all look exactly as we do in these bodies or there would be no way to go to mother father sister brother who didn't make it and we were all made in our image to begin with. (If we were all made in the image of God, we would look the exact same wouldn't we?  No wonder He said Our).  

One of the problems I have with waiting till He returns is HE paid the ransom already, didn't He?  I would think once that ransom had been paid that the souls/spirits (yes, I read the debate) would be released.  Ok, must admit I like to hear your take on these things and you did so well on the first few I thought I'd get your take on a couple more.  You are under no obligation!!!  Doesn't hurt to ask and I already understand your position, just in case you were bored and looking for something to do.  

 

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I mean, wasn't that part of the deal?  Isn't that why He went back in time to offer salvation to those who died before He rose so that they could?  


Or why as part of the "body of Christ" the death of the flesh would separate us from Him? 

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

What would be the point of leaving us here?  So who is in heaven?  Just Christ, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and those who came out of the graves on the day He died?  All these separations of the Body of Christ are still really weird to me.  Some go some stay.  
 

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also My servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

 

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Yes I do.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

I have always taken this to mean the last day of my life here in the flesh.  Do you think that when people are dying and they are talking to those unseen by other s that they are being taken to sleep some where.  


I don't know,  I just think there are tooo many places that look and sound like I don't die, just change.  


And the very last one , to me speaks for itself
 

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into Thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.

The Spirit of theses words are clear.    

Maybe you are right, I just like the comfort and have been programmed.  Prayer.  Lots more prayer.  Again many thanks and many more blessings to you, 

 

[Justin Adams]

Yes. The church as a whole seems to have some weird ideas. Most of these ideas stem from Augustine's 'City of God' and Milton's 'Paradise Lost'. Men's Fables.

For sure we are not 'in Heaven' just yet, and nothing is annihilated (just yet).

God is not of our physical being, excepting the Lord Yeshua. He has all kinds of stratus for our 'dead souls', (The Nether World) Thankfully, we will not be with the Repharim or Overim, but God Who is God of ALL THINGS, has designated a place for us in the interim before He sets it all to rights in His Completeness of time. This is a Heavenly (and earthly) Cosmic Reality that we do not understand well.

-----

REPHAIM (Heb. רְפָאִים). The Rephaim are known from biblical, Ugaritic, and Phoenician sources. In the Bible two uses of the term are discernible. The first is as a gentilic (e.g., Gen. 14:5; 15:20; Deut. 2:11) referring to a people distinguished by their enormous stature. Especially singled out are Og king of Bashan (Deut. 3:11) and the powerful adversaries of David's heroes (II Sam. 21:16, 18, 20). The biblical authors trace their designation to an apparently human eponym Rapha(h) (e.g., II Sam. 21:16, 18, 20;I Chron. 20:8). The Bible's emphasis on the size and might of the Rephaim is responsible for the Septuagint's renderings gigantes and titanes as well as for gabbārē of the Peshitta and gibbarāyyā of the Targums. The Genesis Apocryphon (21:28) on the other hand prefers the noncommital rephāʾayyā.

In its second use Rephaim designates "shades" or "spirits" and serves as a poetic synonym for metim (מֵתִים; Isa. 26:14; Ps. 88:11). It thus refers to the inhabitants of the netherworld (Prov. 9:18). This second meaning is also found in Phoenician sources. King Tabnit of Sidon curses any prospective despoiler of his tomb: "May there be no resting-place for you with the Rephaim" (H. Donner and W. Roellig, Kanaanäische und aramäische Inschriften (KAI, 1962), 13, lines 7–8; COS II, 182), King Eshmunazar (ibid., 14, line 8; COS II, 183) employs the same formula in the plural, adding "… and may they not be buried in a grave." The chthonic aspect of the Phoenician Rephaim is made even more explicit in a neo-Punic bilingual which equates the לעל [נם] אראפאם with dis manibus sacrum KAI (ibid., 117, line 1).

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I agree that no matter what happens, it doesn't change anything as waking up from sleeping is probably much the same as instantly, maybe.  I just don't see myself dying, ever.  Never have. 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

But, you shall, for "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

Hebrews 9:23-28 (KJV)

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation (unto a rescue).

So, IF Yeshua`s return is delayed, you SHALL die one day. No one can avoid it.

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Just stepping out of this flesh that is presently a cover for my spiritual body. Kinda like a seed planted in the earth and when it dies I am set free.  

But, you have no Scriptural proof that this is going to happen! You won't have a "spiritual body" until the body that you are is resurrected after death and TRANSFORMED into a superstrong body (a wind-like body; a body that BLASTS air instead of just breathing air)! THIS is found in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (KJV)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption (decay); it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "an air-breathing body"), and there is a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "an air-blasting body"). 45 And so it is written,

"The (first) man Adam was made a living soul (air-breathing creature)"; the last Adam was made a quickening (life-giving) spirit (air-blasting creature). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (soil-like):
the second man is the Lord from heaven (from the sky). 
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
and as is the heavenly (from above the sky), such are they also that are heavenly. 
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (from the dirt),
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (He who is above the sky).

I should point out, too, that this is NOT talking about being an immaterial body, because of what the Lord Yeshua` said after His resurrection:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost). 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Thus, Yeshua` in His resurrection was a flesh and bones body that could eat fish and honeycomb! He was PHYSICAL!

 

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

We know we will all look exactly as we do in these bodies or there would be no way to go to mother father sister brother who didn't make it and we were all made in our image to begin with. (If we were all made in the image of God, we would look the exact same wouldn't we?  No wonder He said Our).  

That's because WE WILL BE OUR BODIES! And, NO! You're misquoting the Scriptures:

Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV)

26 And God said,

"Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

27 So God created man in HIS (GOD'S) own image, in the image of God created HE (GOD) him; male and female created HE (GOD) them.

He is talking to the DiVeer and the Ruwach haQodesh (the Word and the Holy Spirit); therefore, He uses the 1st person, plural form, which we translate as "us" and "we."

 Later the Scriptures say,

Genesis 5:1-5 (KJV)

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

The "our" doesn't refer to us; it refers to GOD!

Therefore, your idea of "being made in His image" is NOT to make an exact copy; rather it means to be in similar form! Just as haDiveer (the Word) was planned by God to look - that is, with two eyes, two ears, a mouth, a nose, two arms, two hands, two legs, two feet, etc. - so He made Adam to look! Remember: "Adam" is THEIR name; that is, the name of the Man and of the Woman TOGETHER! Think of this name "Adam" as more of a surname - a LAST name - than his first name. It was the Man's name for His wife to call her "Chavah" which means (according to the Scriptures), "the mother of all Living (human beings)." "Chavah" is closely akin to "chay," which means "life!" And, it's in the same family as "l'chaim," a toast often made: "To life!"

Genesis 3:20 (KJV)

20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

The name "Eve" comes from the Greek transliteration using the epsilon, not the eta. Thus, her name should actually be pronounced from the Greek as "Eh'-weh," a close approximation of "Chavah," instead of as "Eev."

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

One of the problems I have with waiting till He returns is HE paid the ransom already, didn't He?  I would think once that ransom had been paid that the souls/spirits (yes, I read the debate) would be released. 

Again, you are not looking at the Scriptures correctly.

1 Timothy 2:1-7 (KJV)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified IN DUE TIME (the proof in their own seasons). 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity (truthfulness).

While He paid the ransom for all, not all have yet accepted that ransom!

Yeshua` said it in the way that He read Isaiah:

Luke 4:16-21 (KJV)

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias (Yesha`yahuw or Isaiah). And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21And he began to say unto them,

"This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

AH! But Yesha`yahuw's prophecy goes ON!

Isaiah 61:1-6 (KJV)

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD (that is, the year for accepting the LORD), ... 

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien (foreigner) shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Just because Yeshua` read "he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives" and "to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound," these words were DEPENDENT UPON the LORD (YHWH) being accepted (and He was NOT accepted)!

Now, the Jews must WAIT until the Messiah comes again before He shall be their King, and it will be THEN that these precious promises are fulfilled!

Therefore, the ransom being applied will not occur until the Messiah returns.

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Ok, must admit I like to hear your take on these things and you did so well on the first few I thought I'd get your take on a couple more.  You are under no obligation!!!  Doesn't hurt to ask and I already understand your position, just in case you were bored and looking for something to do. 

Happy to oblige! After all,

1 Peter 3:15-16 (KJV)

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I mean, wasn't that part of the deal?  Isn't that why He went back in time to offer salvation to those who died before He rose so that they could?  

First, someone has been improvising on what the Scriptures actually say. Yeshua` didn't "go back in time" to do anything! When Yeshua` cried with a loud voice "Tetelestai," (the Greek word translated "It is finished!" meaning "It's paid in full"), said to His Father "receive my spirit (my breath)," and breathed His last ("gave up the ghost" or "gave up the spirit"), He was buried in a tomb. He didn't move; He didn't go anywhere; He waited for His resurrection.

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Or why as part of the "body of Christ" the death of the flesh would separate us from Him? 

Wrong thinking: we're not separated from Him; we're separated from the rest of the "body of Christ"; that's what Paul was talking about.

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

That's not enough! You MUST read this within its context! What were they discussing? What were they talking about? Who believed what? Read it again:

Mark 12: (KJV)

18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying, 

19 "Master, Moses wrote unto us, 'If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife."

24 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

What was their error? They didn't BELIEVE IN A RESURRECTION! So, when Yeshua` corrected them, what did He mean about God being "of the living?" He was talking about the RESURRECTION! The Tsduqiym ("Sadducees," "Righteous Ones") had this convoluted mess of a "chiydaah," a conundrum, and expected to catch Yeshua` in His words like those of the Prushiym ("Pharisees," "Separatists")! Yeshua` turned it around on them, but He was NOT saying that Avraham, Yitschaq, or Ya`aqoV (Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob) were already alive in some "spiritual" sense!

 

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What would be the point of leaving us here?  So who is in heaven?  Just Christ, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and those who came out of the graves on the day He died?  All these separations of the Body of Christ are still really weird to me.  Some go some stay.  

Nope, just the Messiah. He's the ONLY ONE who is a new body now! Every resurrection to date has been a TEMPORARY resurrection! That person would die all over again, as in the case of Lazarus.

Chanokh (Enoch), Eliyahuw (Elijah), and Mosheh (Moses) are all dead SOMEWHERE. We just don't know where, exactly. Mosheh is even argued about as to where he, his body, might be! There's a LOT of exaggeration and embellishing on God's Word, especially when God's not telling.

Out of time tonight to finish, but I'll give you more soon.

[Uber Genius]

On 10/19/2020 at 5:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

God didn't say his BODY was made of dust; He said to Adam, "YOU shall return unto the ground, for out of the ground YOU were taken!" He concludes "YOU are dust, and to dust YOU shall return!"

So, jumping in late on this discussion. Having just returned from a long sabbatical and anxious to engage some more complex discussions Imwas drawn to your post.

Caveat: I have only read the first page of posts. If I repeat points made by others I would appreciate a reference and I will to do additional research.

It seems that you are arguing for ceasation of the soul.

Your views seem to comport with those of the Saduccees during the Late Second Temple period. Jesus responds to their view in Matt 22:31:

"And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' HE is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Implication is that as of the late 20s C.E. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (all dust for over 1600 years on the most liberal dating), were still alive in some sense meaningful to Jesus' audience.

in fact no rebuttal is offered in the text. Just amazement at the intellectual philosophical ability demonstrated by Jesus' response. 

Secondly, the witch at Endor 1 Sam 28:13ff:

"I see a [Elohim] (a spiritual being who's natural abode is not Earth) coming up out of the Earth."

Samuel seems to be a denizen of Sheol who is pissed off about being disturbed by Saul.

Luke give some us multiple references (in his gospel and Acts), of soulish beings in a waiting place called hades and also described as Abraham's bosom, Luke 16:19ff, Luke 23:43, Acts 2:27-31. Ephesians 4:8-10, Rev 20:13 

similarly in the OT we find references to Sheol and pleas that God not abandon souls to that place but ransom them. 

 

further we see numerous intertestimental references of same.

I'm not looking for an exegesis of each reference but rather a simple response to the question:

Given such a rich testimony of evidence that soulish beings are preserved after death how do conclude that souls die?

Just read your follow-up post

"Come on, now. Why do theologians claim that there's such a thing as an "immortal soul?" An "immortal air-breathing-creature?" CAN there be such a thing? If so, WHEN?"

Oh shoot, did think that immaterial souls breathe air?

Problem solved. 

Rich use of figurative language abound throughout scripture. And since dictionaries tracking etymologies are a modern invention we have a challenge approaching this problem from the part (word) to the whole (theological concept).

So in exegesis we have a rule known as the rule of perspicuity. 

Interpret the unclear in light of the clear.

we have clear support from OT,Second Temple literature, and NT of authors referring to unimbodied souls in Sheol/Hades, and a place called Abraham's bosom or paradise.

Further since word usage is constrained by syntax, and meaning inside the context of a sentence, we must look at the larger textual clues to get the meaning of a word, as opposed to letting the word misrepresent the meaning of a sentence.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Uber Genius said:

So, jumping in late on this discussion. Having just returned from a long sabbatical and anxious to engage some more complex discussions Imwas drawn to your post.

Caveat: I have only read the first page of posts. If I repeat points made by others I would appreciate a reference and I will to do additional research.

It seems that you are arguing for ceasation of the soul.

Your views seem to comport with those of the Saduccees during the Late Second Temple period. Jesus responds to their view in Matt 22:31:

"And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' HE is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Implication is that as of the late 20s C.E. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (all dust for over 1600 years on the most liberal dating), were still alive in some sense meaningful to Jesus' audience.

in fact no rebuttal is offered in the text. Just amazement at the intellectual philosophical ability demonstrated by Jesus' response. 

Secondly, the witch at Endor 1 Sam 28:13ff:

"I see a [Elohim] (a spiritual being who's natural abode is not Earth) coming up out of the Earth."

Samuel seems to be a denizen of Sheol who is pissed off about being disturbed by Saul.

Luke give some us multiple references (in his gospel and Acts), of soulish beings in a waiting place called hades and also described as Abraham's bosom, Luke 16:19ff, Luke 23:43, Acts 2:27-31. Ephesians 4:8-10, Rev 20:13 

similarly in the OT we find references to Sheol and pleas that God not abandon souls to that place but ransom them. 

 

further we see numerous intertestimental references of same.

I'm not looking for an exegesis of each reference but rather a simple response to the question:

Given such a rich testimony of evidence that soulish beings are preserved after death how do conclude that souls die?

Just read your follow-up post

"Come on, now. Why do theologians claim that there's such a thing as an "immortal soul?" An "immortal air-breathing-creature?" CAN there be such a thing? If so, WHEN?"

Oh shoot, did think that immaterial souls breathe air?

Problem solved. 

Rich use of figurative language abound throughout scripture. And since dictionaries tracking etymologies are a modern invention we have a challenge approaching this problem from the part (word) to the whole (theological concept).

So in exegesis we have a rule known as the rule of perspicuity. 

Interpret the unclear in light of the clear.

we have clear support from OT,Second Temple literature, and NT of authors referring to unimbodied souls in Sheol/Hades, and a place called Abraham's bosom or paradise.

Further since word usage is constrained by syntax, and meaning inside the context of a sentence, we must look at the larger textual clues to get the meaning of a word, as opposed to letting the word misrepresent the meaning of a sentence.

 

Uber, it is always nice to see a new face enter the forum and as you can see this topic is ONLY 53 pages long -- I suspect we may be only 1/2 finished.

But it is a terrific topic and there is always room for another opinion, whichever side of the fence it lays. 

There are so many talented and knowledgeable folks that have been commenting on this topic and they seem to be quite able to pull up various verses from Scripture and then expound on them - clearly this is not their first rodeo!

For me, not so much but this still does not discourage me from offering an opinion. My process on this subject was to first go back as early as possible within the Scriptures (Genesis) and try to define what God has given as His definition of a "soul". I believe this is in Gen.2:7 where God took the dust of the earth and breathed into it and it BECAME a "living soul". A + B = C, and without either A or B there can be no C. 

If this is the definition, then any and all comments, verses, parables, etc., MUST be interpreted within this definition even when it appears to show or mean otherwise. For me, the "parable" you mentioned above - Abraham's bosom is a good example. There maybe at least two (most likely many more than 2) takeaways from this story

-1) it is a true parable speaking about how there is no second opportunity to change one's status after death, or,

-2) there are in fact people - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and many more that ARE in fact alive in some fashion being contained or held is some place awaiting the final judgement. 

The second possibility seems to have a wider acceptance and treat this particular story, not as a parable but a real event. If so, this would seem to contradict the definition of a soul found in 2:7 (if that is in fact agreed with).

So, if I may, would you be kind enough to offer your definition of a "soul" and this might be a good start for me to see another's POV.... Thanks, Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 1/17/2021 at 3:59 AM, Justin Adams said:

Yes. The church as a whole seems to have some weird ideas. Most of these ideas stem from Augustine's 'City of God' and Milton's 'Paradise Lost'. Men's Fables.

For sure we are not 'in Heaven' just yet, and nothing is annihilated (just yet).

God is not of our physical being, excepting the Lord Yeshua. He has all kinds of stratus for our 'dead souls', (The Nether World) Thankfully, we will not be with the Repharim or Overim, but God Who is God of ALL THINGS, has designated a place for us in the interim before He sets it all to rights in His Completeness of time. This is a Heavenly (and earthly) Cosmic Reality that we do not understand well.

-----

REPHAIM (Heb. רְפָאִים). The Rephaim are known from biblical, Ugaritic, and Phoenician sources. In the Bible two uses of the term are discernible. The first is as a gentilic (e.g., Gen. 14:5; 15:20; Deut. 2:11) referring to a people distinguished by their enormous stature. Especially singled out are Og king of Bashan (Deut. 3:11) and the powerful adversaries of David's heroes (II Sam. 21:16, 18, 20). The biblical authors trace their designation to an apparently human eponym Rapha(h) (e.g., II Sam. 21:16, 18, 20;I Chron. 20:8). The Bible's emphasis on the size and might of the Rephaim is responsible for the Septuagint's renderings gigantes and titanes as well as for gabbārē of the Peshitta and gibbarāyyā of the Targums. The Genesis Apocryphon (21:28) on the other hand prefers the noncommital rephāʾayyā.

In its second use Rephaim designates "shades" or "spirits" and serves as a poetic synonym for metim (מֵתִים; Isa. 26:14; Ps. 88:11). It thus refers to the inhabitants of the netherworld (Prov. 9:18). This second meaning is also found in Phoenician sources. King Tabnit of Sidon curses any prospective despoiler of his tomb: "May there be no resting-place for you with the Rephaim" (H. Donner and W. Roellig, Kanaanäische und aramäische Inschriften (KAI, 1962), 13, lines 7–8; COS II, 182), King Eshmunazar (ibid., 14, line 8; COS II, 183) employs the same formula in the plural, adding "… and may they not be buried in a grave." The chthonic aspect of the Phoenician Rephaim is made even more explicit in a neo-Punic bilingual which equates the לעל [נם] אראפאם with dis manibus sacrum KAI (ibid., 117, line 1).

Shalom, Justin Adams.

Sometimes, these names are not the names of people or the names of families or the names of "shades" or "spirits."

Sometimes, they are just the titles of OCCUPATIONS! They are used not as "names" but as "TITLES," like "Dr. Jones."

Look again at the word "nfiliym," the plural of "nfiyl":

Quote

 

5303 nfiyl (nef-eel') or nfil (nef-eel'); from naafal; properly, a feller, i.e. A bully or tyrant
-- giant.

5307 naafal (naw-fal'). A primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitive or causative, literal or figurative)
-- be accepted, cast (down, self, (lots), out), cease, die, divide (by lot), (let) fail, (cause to, let, make, ready to) fall (away, down, -en, -ing), fell(-ing), fugitive, have (inheritance), inferior, be judged (by mistake for palal), lay (along), (cause to) lie down, light (down), be (X hast) lost, lying, overthrow, overwhelm, perish, present(-ed, -ing), (make to) rot, slay, smite out, X surely, throw down.

 

Some have said that the name means "fallen one(s)," but that's NOT what the 1890's word "feller" means! It means a "WOODCUTTER," a "LUMBERJACK!" Think about our own U.S. history in the 1700s and 1800s:

The lumberjacks of that time were strong, healthy, and most of the time, they were HUGE, compared to other men! ("Giants?") If you'll pardon the analogy, they were the "Hell's Angels" of those times! They were often ruthless and abusive, and they were feared by the others of that time period! They were the TYRANTS of their time, doing as they pleased with little restraint, internally or externally!

Wise men (like the journalist James MacGillivray) invented and embellished the stories about Paul Bunyan, a GOOD and HELPFUL lumberjack, to teach these men how to use their physical prowess for good rather than for evil. It provided them with an alternative that would improve their actions, like those of Paul, to make them the heroes they were attempting to be through force! The stories helped them to be benevolent and to think of others, rather than themselves.

Just like in any occupation, if one is gifted at performing that occupation, he or she can excel no matter to what family he or she belongs!

Only eight souls survived the Flood in Noach's time, but there were "fellers" or "lumberjacks" on both sides of the Flood because it wasn't about where they were born or to whom; it was about how their size and strength could make them excel at that occupation to chop down trees for their lumber!

The word "rfaa'iym" is the same way. It's an OCCUPATION, not a lineage! They were the "HEALERS" of their times! Again, this is a plural word for ...

Quote

 

7497 raafaa' (raw-faw') or raafaah (raw-faw'); from raafaa' (7495) in the sense of invigorating; a giant
-- giant, Rapha, Rephaim(-s). See also Beyth Rapha' (which means "House of Healing").

7495 raafaa' (raw-faw') or Or raafaah {raw-faw'}; a primitive root; properly, to mend (by stitching), i.e. (figuratively) to cure
-- cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See raafaah.

 

These words could have been used as a "giant in intellect," as most DOCTORS need to be to help their patients, but the primary meaning is a HEALER!

Now, think of how a doctor might study a corpse. He is studying a dead body, another person who has died, to gain insight on how the body works. I believe THIS is the source of the idea of "shades" and "spirits." Suppose, for instance, that a healer is studying the tendons of the forearm: He squeezes them, and the hand contracts! Tell me that an on-looker wouldn't have a fit about how the doctor made the hand seem to be grasping! An ignorant person might assume that the doctor was dabbling with the supernatural! "He was calling back the person's ghost!" (That is, the person's "breath!")

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

So, jumping in late on this discussion. Having just returned from a long sabbatical and anxious to engage some more complex discussions I was drawn to your post.

Caveat: I have only read the first page of posts. If I repeat points made by others I would appreciate a reference and I will to do additional research.

It seems that you are arguing for cessation of the soul.

Your views seem to comport with those of the Saduccees during the Late Second Temple period. Jesus responds to their view in Matt 22:31:

"And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' HE is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Implication is that as of the late 20s C.E. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (all dust for over 1600 years on the most liberal dating), were still alive in some sense meaningful to Jesus' audience.

in fact no rebuttal is offered in the text. Just amazement at the intellectual philosophical ability demonstrated by Jesus' response. 

Shalom, Uber Genius, and welcome back!

I DO believe in the cessation of the soul, that is, the "air-breathing creature." When a person dies, he no longer "breathes air!"

HOWEVER, I'm also an advocate for the RESURRECTION, in which case the person comes back to life and "breathes air" once again! Therefore, I'm quite the OPPOSITE of the Tsduqiym ("Sadducees"), who did NOT believe in the Resurrection at all!

We have already touched on this, but Yeshua` was arguing FOR THE RESURRECTION, not for "life in Heaven!" His point in saying that "He is not the God of the dead but of the living," was NOT to say that they continued to live in "Heaven" or "Sheol" or "Hades." His point was to say that they would LIVE AGAIN IN THE RESURRECTION.

8 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Secondly, the witch at Endor 1 Sam 28:13ff:

"I see a [Elohim] (a spiritual being who's natural abode is not Earth) coming up out of the Earth."

Samuel seems to be a denizen of Sheol who is pissed off about being disturbed by Saul.

Sh'owl (commonly written as "Sheol") is the grave. The word, like the name "Sha'uwl" (or "Saul") means "asked." In the case of "Sha'uwl," he was "Asked for" by his parents and was so named; but, in the case of "Sh'owl," it is the place where the one lying there is "asked about," such as when kids are brought to the tomb and they "ask" for information "about" their ancestor. "Tell me about grandpa; what was he like?"

And, we've already discussed about the medium of Endor. To summarize, she saw something that she didn't recognize in her "occupation," and it frightened her! She saw a VISION of Sh'mu'el ("Samuel"), and what she saw was exactly what God wanted her to see and relate to Sha'uwl. WHO it actually was is open for debate; Sha'uwl recognized that she was describing Sh'mu'el, but there's no way of knowing. It could have just as easily been a demon pretending to be Sh'mu'el and relishing in the words that he was allowed to say to Sha'uwl because they would hurt him so deeply!

8 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Luke give some us multiple references (in his gospel and Acts), of soulish beings in a waiting place called hades and also described as Abraham's bosom, Luke 16:19ff, Luke 23:43, Acts 2:27-31. Ephesians 4:8-10, Rev 20:13 

Well, there are a lot of questions all bound up in one statement, but we've already discussed about Luke 16 and that this passage is about the Resurrection of the Unjust also seen in Revelation 20:13 (which you also mention):

Revelation 20:13 (KJV)

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This is not talking about some subterranean waiting-place; it's talking about these individuals being raised back to life so they may stand in the judgment and "receive in their bodies the things they did." From the Judgment, they are consigned to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur (or the Lake of Burning Sulfur) for punishment and the Second Death.

Regarding Luke 16, note that the rich man is ALREADY SUFFERING IN FLAMES. Also, he HAS his body members, such as a tongue, and eyes, and ears with which to hear.

8 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

similarly in the OT we find references to Sheol and pleas that God not abandon souls to that place but ransom them. 

I think you're recalling the PROPHECY of the Messiah not being left in Sh'owl:

Psalm 16:8-11 (KJV)

8 I have set the LORD (YHWH) always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there arepleasures for evermore.

This passage was quoted in the B'rit Chadashah ("New Testament"):

Acts 13:16-41 (KJV)

16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said,

"Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 

17 "The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said,

"'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.'

23 "Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said,

"'Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.'

26 "Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm,

"'Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.'

34 "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise,

"'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'

35 "Wherefore he saith also in another psalm,

"'Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 

38 "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41 "'Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.'"

8 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

further we see numerous intertestimental references of same.

I'm not looking for an exegesis of each reference but rather a simple response to the question:

Given such a rich testimony of evidence that soulish beings are preserved after death how do conclude that souls die?

Despite your attempt at rebuttal, nowhere above do you show any evidence that "soulish beings are preserved after death." I conclude that "souls die" because the living soul that ceases to breathe, dies! THAT'S what "soul" (Hebrew "nefesh") means! The man (Adam) was made a living nefesh - a living "air-breathing creature!" But, we also see in Genesis 5:1-5 that the man (Adam) died!

8 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Just read your follow-up post

"Come on, now. Why do theologians claim that there's such a thing as an "immortal soul?" An "immortal air-breathing-creature?" CAN there be such a thing? If so, WHEN?"

IN THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUSTIFIED when the Messiah Yeshua` returns! They will PHYSICALLY come back to life and breathe the clean air once again!

8 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Oh shoot, did [you] think that immaterial souls breathe air?

Nope. There's no such thing as an "immaterial soul." There is, however, such a thing as an "immortal soul," an "air breather that shall no longer die." And, that's what Paul told us in 1 Corinthians 15!

8 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Problem solved. 

Rich use of figurative language abound throughout scripture. And since dictionaries tracking etymologies are a modern invention we have a challenge approaching this problem from the part (word) to the whole (theological concept).

So in exegesis we have a rule known as the rule of perspicuity. 

Interpret the unclear in light of the clear.

we have clear support from OT,Second Temple literature, and NT of authors referring to unimbodied souls in Sheol/Hades, and a place called Abraham's bosom or paradise.

Further since word usage is constrained by syntax, and meaning inside the context of a sentence, we must look at the larger textual clues to get the meaning of a word, as opposed to letting the word misrepresent the meaning of a sentence.

Sorry, but this is just a fancy way of saying to use the allegorical method of interpretation when the historical/grammatical method will do just fine. Some call this the "literal" method, but I'll stick to the literal truths of God's Word over this ridiculous embellishment.

[Frits]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I DO believe in the cessation of the soul, that is, the "air-breathing creature." When a person dies, he no longer "breathes air!"

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"He is not the God of the dead but of the living," was NOT to say that they continued to live in "Heaven" or "Sheol" or "Hades."

Hi bro Retrobyter,

So if I understand what you want to say, there is no heaven for the Christian after death?  So he/she does not take up residence with the Lord Jesus after he died?

 God bless.