What is a "soul?"

[Charlie744]

13 minutes ago, Willa said:

We consist of body, soul and spirit according to the New Testament formula.  Our spirits were dead till Christ breathed on the disciples and instructed them to receive the Holy Spirit.  It is the part of us that can communicate with the Holy Spirit--God.  It resides in our soul.

Soul is self.  It is all that makes up our personality and makes us unique.  It resides in our body till our death when it immediately is with Jesus.

The body will be resurrected when Jesus comes back for it and it arises to meet Him in the air.  It will be transformed into a spiritual body at that time.  We shall be like Christ.  

I don't plan to reply to any posts concerning this because it is useless to argue with your Seventh Day Adventist indoctrination.  

I am not sure what you mean by a SDA indoctrination or who that is directed to... however, without considering any Christian denomination I would ask you to simply go to the Scripture in Genesis 2:7. Here is where God identifies HIS formula for the creation of Adam- HIS formula - no one else’s. 

HE takes dirt (A) and breathes HIS Spirit (B) into (A) and this BECOMES (C) - “a living soul”. 

Meaning we do not HAVE a “living soul”, but we BECOME a “living soul”. 

At our physical death, these two parts are once again separated- there are only two to create and two parts to separate. 

There are more than a few verses in the Scriptures where there is mention of the soul, the spirit and the body which has definitely provided so many with proof of the existence of a third part of HIS creation, but the translations have caused these ... there is no reason we should consider adding to or interpreting (translating HIS Words) that depart from 2:7.

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

 

[Willa]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I am not sure what you mean by a SDA indoctrination or who that is directed to... however, without considering any Christian denomination I would ask you to simply go to the Scripture in Genesis 2:7. Here is where God identifies HIS formula for the creation of Adam- HIS formula - no one else’s. 

HE takes dirt (A) and breathes HIS Spirit (B) into (A) and this BECOMES (C) - “a living soul”. 

Meaning we do not HAVE a “living soul”, but we BECOME a “living soul”. 

At our physical death, these two parts are once again separated- there are only two to create and two parts to separate. 

There are more than a few verses in the Scriptures where there is mention of the soul, the spirit and the body which has definitely provided so many with proof of the existence of a third part of HIS creation, but the translations have caused these ... there is no reason we should consider adding to or interpreting (translating HIS Words) that depart from 2:7.

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

 

Retrobyter is SDA.

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, Willa said:

Retrobyter is SDA.

So?

What about what 2:7 says?

How do you read it?

Charlie 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's more local than one might be trying to say that it is.

Let's see if we are saying the same thing, 


Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in
heaven(s) (ouranois), Hallowed be thy name.  (Where GOD dwells)

Thus therefore pray you Father of us, who {is} in the heavens, hallowed be the name of you

Is plural   -  as God is not only in heaven but also on the earth


Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (ouranō)
Come the kingdom of You, be done the will of You as in heaven also upon the earth

Is singular  - to show difference  between them



Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven (s) (ouranōn) and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Where God dwells)

Takes a KING to have a kingdom.  So kingdom of the 'skies' is ?  What is the subject of Matthew?  The King proclaimed, highest office of man, hence the Royal bloodline.  Not to mention Mary's cousin being a full blooded Levite, making the Lord Jesus of both  - the Spectre and the Priest in one.  Lord of lord and King of kings.  
 

I agree that they should be translated more accurately than they are for understanding.

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

In any case, I'm detecting that you are unwilling to see from my perspective that the living, breathing body IS the "soul."

Wait, I am willing that the living breathing body is a part of the body/spirit/soul but not that the 'flesh' body is the soul and I think I have tried to see it from your point of view but still is an 'incomplete' truth for me when approaching it that way.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Do you understand the significance of Him being called "the King of the Jews?" And, about how that relates to Him being called the "Christ," or the "Messiah," and the "Son of David?"

I sure hope so.  I understand the promises of God.  I understand prophecy.  I understand the separation that brought about the Northern and Southern split.  I understand the opposition set between the birthright and the sceptre (Gods covenant with David)

 

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

While I'm saying there's "no Heaven," I'm also agreeing that there SHALL be "streets of gold" and "gates of pearl."

I don't get this at all.  NO Heaven?

Maybe you could explain verses such as

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
 

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Matthew 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

 

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him


 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, for the thief who died that day upon the cross, he closed his eyes in death and, for him, he will immediately re-open them at the Return of the Messiah, the First Resurrection, when he will be found in the Park, the Garden of Gethsemane.

OR 

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Again, ALL GOES BACK needing a KING for dominion so 'skies' 


We should do this next
Kingdom of heaven vs Kingdom of God 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I am not sure what you mean by a SDA indoctrination or who that is directed to... however, without considering any Christian denomination I would ask you to simply go to the Scripture in Genesis 2:7. Here is where God identifies HIS formula for the creation of Adam- HIS formula - no one else’s. 

HE takes dirt (A) and breathes HIS Spirit (B) into (A) and this BECOMES (C) - “a living soul”. 

Meaning we do not HAVE a “living soul”, but we BECOME a “living soul”. 

At our physical death, these two parts are once again separated- there are only two to create and two parts to separate. 

There are more than a few verses in the Scriptures where there is mention of the soul, the spirit and the body which has definitely provided so many with proof of the existence of a third part of HIS creation, but the translations have caused these ... there is no reason we should consider adding to or interpreting (translating HIS Words) that depart from 2:7.

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

 

I know this wasn't for me Charlie so please excuse the interruption but if you could help me here to understand


1 Kings 17:17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.

1 Kings 17:18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?

1 Kings 17:19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.

1 Kings 17:20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

 

1 Kings 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.

IF the body (dirt) with breath  is 'the soul',  then how does the soul leave the dirt?  If the child is still right there, no more breath WHERE did the soul go and how did it do it without the dirt?

And asking that question made me realize I am pretty much good with this subject


And I thank you.  

[Charlie744]

48 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I know this wasn't for me Charlie so please excuse the interruption but if you could help me here to understand


1 Kings 17:17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.

1 Kings 17:18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?

1 Kings 17:19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.

1 Kings 17:20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

 

1 Kings 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.

IF the body (dirt) with breath  is 'the soul',  then how does the soul leave the dirt?  If the child is still right there, no more breath WHERE did the soul go and how did it do it without the dirt?

And asking that question made me realize I am pretty much good with this subject


And I thank you.  

Very nice to hear from you DeighAnn!  By the way, I was responding to Walla’s comment when she mentioned the SDA denomination— later she posted it was meant / directed to Retrobyter... but I still was interested in her thoughts on the soul of course. 

Anyway, I am not sure if I have this right but the verses you quoted in Kings were not a comment or message about “life after death”. Yes this story included a person who did die but this was / is a message regarding Elijah and the woman. 

But back to your question... if you do agree with the understanding that Adam is the combination of the two and only two parts (dirt and God’s breath or A + B that BECOME a living soul or (C), then A returns to the earth and B must return to its source or God. 

So many contend there IS a soul- a third part of Adam, and they ask “where did this soul go after death”? But Genesis 2:7 says that Adam became a living soul- it does not say a “soul” was created as a third part of Adam . 

But I will agree that perhaps a billion or more Christians believe what they have been taught over the years- that man has a body and a spirit AND a soul. 

Most important is NOT to accept my opinion on this OR anyone’s... but simply go to Genesis 2:7 and read the verse and think about it ... 

God has clearly given us HIS definition of how HE created Adam ... all we have to do is read that definition and ask HIM to make HIS Words known to you. 

Thanks for the post... best wishes always, Charlie 

PS. I am sure you are aware that SONshine decided to leave the forum... if you hear from her please give her my best!

 

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Most important is NOT to accept my opinion on this OR anyone’s... but simply go to Genesis 2:7 and read the verse and think about it ... 

God has clearly given us HIS definition of how HE created Adam ... all we have to do is read that definition and ask HIM to make HIS Words known to you. 

Thanks for the post... best wishes always, Charlie 

PS. I am sure you are aware that SONshine decided to leave the forum... if you hear from her please give her my best!

Hi Charlie,  I will definitely let her know and it will make SONshine very happy to hear it.  We all need to PAUSE from time to time, re group and come back singing a different TUNE.  I miss her too!

As you know there is always more to the story and the Bible it is just a 'basic' outline until the deep study opens up the depth of His words and it starts to expand out into eternal past and future.  

But I try to never let the 'letter' of what is written take forefront to the 'spirit' of what is written and it comes time and again by taking a 'concept' and micro managing it until it loses Gods truth as far as I have witnessed.  

God created all souls.  Beings.  Beings are a mixture of things that brought together are as one,  body/soul/spirit.  Take away the body and you have a soul/spirit with no IMAGE.  Take away the breath and you have an animated image with no breath of life.  Take away the spirit and you have a breathing image that can't be animated, you get the drift.

SO there must be a POINT.  And these kinds of 'points' always seem to have to do with some 'theory/belief' on Gods truth and are necessary to make it SEEM to be truth.  So once locked into a 'belief' we then have no choice but to go down the rest of that same rabbit hole every time as I see it anyhow.  But thanks for answering my question anyhow.  God Bless you always



 

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I am not sure what you mean by a SDA indoctrination or who that is directed to... however, without considering any Christian denomination I would ask you to simply go to the Scripture in Genesis 2:7. Here is where God identifies HIS formula for the creation of Adam- HIS formula - no one else’s. 

HE takes dirt (A) and breathes HIS Spirit (B) into (A) and this BECOMES (C) - “a living soul”. 

Meaning we do not HAVE a “living soul”, but we BECOME a “living soul”. 

At our physical death, these two parts are once again separated- there are only two to create and two parts to separate. 

There are more than a few verses in the Scriptures where there is mention of the soul, the spirit and the body which has definitely provided so many with proof of the existence of a third part of HIS creation, but the translations have caused these ... there is no reason we should consider adding to or interpreting (translating HIS Words) that depart from 2:7.

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

 

Shalom, Charlie.

First, never mind about Willa. She doesn't know what she's talking about. I am NOT Seventh Day Adventist. I am an independent Baptist converted to a Messianic Jew. However, I am first and foremost a Biblicist and a LITERALIST!

Second, the "breath" (B) that was "puffed" (Hebrew: vayyippach = "and-he-puffed") into Adam's nostrils was not the "Spirit of God." Wrong word. The word "spirit" (Hebrew: ruwach) is not used in Genesis 2:7 AT ALL! Instead, it is the Hebrew phrase: nishmat chayyiym = "a-puff of-living-[things]."

Whereas you are much closer to the truth in your stance than most are, this part is still clinging to the body-soul-spirit trichotomy. It's just not there in Genesis 2:7.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Hi Charlie,  I will definitely let her know and it will make SONshine very happy to hear it.  We all need to PAUSE from time to time, re group and come back singing a different TUNE.  I miss her too!

As you know there is always more to the story and the Bible it is just a 'basic' outline until the deep study opens up the depth of His words and it starts to expand out into eternal past and future.  

But I try to never let the 'letter' of what is written take forefront to the 'spirit' of what is written and it comes time and again by taking a 'concept' and micro managing it until it loses Gods truth as far as I have witnessed.  

God created all souls.  Beings.  Beings are a mixture of things that brought together are as one,  body/soul/spirit.  Take away the body and you have a soul/spirit with no IMAGE.  Take away the breath and you have an animated image with no breath of life.  Take away the spirit and you have a breathing image that can't be animated, you get the drift.

SO there must be a POINT.  And these kinds of 'points' always seem to have to do with some 'theory/belief' on Gods truth and are necessary to make it SEEM to be truth.  So once locked into a 'belief' we then have no choice but to go down the rest of that same rabbit hole every time as I see it anyhow.  But thanks for answering my question anyhow.  God Bless you always



 

DeighAnn, thank you very much for your thoughts and I don’t believe you might find many that would disagree with your approach- whether or not they abide / practice  in it is another story.

Unless you would rather not, I would ask you to tell me where or why you find a “spirit” being created in 2:7. 

As you know from my earlier message I have just two parts in Adam’s creation- the dirt plus His breath into Adam. And to confuse things even further I am quite comfortable with the idea that God’s breathing into Adam was not just a puff of air to get him started, but it was most importantly the act of imparting His Spirit into Adam.

For me, this is not synonymous with the commonly used term “man’s spirit (small s) but the Spirit of God that would make Adam in HIS IMAGE. God could have just as easily given life or air into Adam in the same manner as the animals, but this “act” was for something special, something HE would give to no other creature. 

Last evening I started a new topic where I aim to solicit thoughts on these two related issues- definition of a soul in 2:7 and 1:26 the “image of God”. I believe these two must agree and support each other, and it should keep all other interpretations at bay (assuming we are able to find the true relationship of the two). 

If you would like to share some more of your thoughts on the “spirit” (small s) in the definition of a soul, I will look forward to your response... 

Also, please ask SONshine to think yer- joining ... her thoughts and contributions are missed... 

If she finds someone who is just not being nice she can always use the “ignore” option.

Best wishes always, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

16 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Charlie.

First, never mind about Willa. She doesn't know what she's talking about. I am NOT Seventh Day Adventist. I am an independent Baptist converted to a Messianic Jew. However, I am first and foremost a Biblicist and a LITERALIST!

Second, the "breath" (B) that was "puffed" (Hebrew: vayyippach = "and-he-puffed") into Adam's nostrils was not the "Spirit of God." Wrong word. The word "spirit" (Hebrew: ruwach) is not used in Genesis 2:7 AT ALL! Instead, it is the Hebrew phrase: nishmat chayyiym = "a-puff of-living-[things]."

Whereas you are much closer to the truth in your stance than most are, this part is still clinging to the body-soul-spirit trichotomy. It's just not there in Genesis 2:7.

Thank you very much for your thoughts! 

First, in my last response to you I copied a few statements from an article that spoke to the Hebrew words - I think the last one might have caught your interest ... I don’t believe “ruwach” IS used as you mentioned but I am not saying it was or should have been used... God did NOT impart HIS Holy Spirit (HS) into Adam, But HIS Spirit. 

This is what separates man from the animals.. this is why the “act” of God breathing into Adam was unique and special, this is what made Adam immortal, this is what makes man “in the image of God, this is what Adam lost when he sinned.

The ruwach could not be breathed into Adam - the Holy Spirit IS a part of God ONLY! 

But God would make Adam in HIS image by giving him a body and a Spirit. 

I do not see anything in 2:7 that tells us we are a trichotomy... 

I do understand that almost everyone throws the three words around “freely”.. body, soul and spirit, and one can not or should not ignore their use and frequency in the Scriptures, but they can not (my opinion of course) contradict 2:7. 

Also, in your opinion does 2:7 have to be in agreement with 1:26-27? Is the definition of man the same as the image of God? 

When Jesus was about to die on the Cross what did HE say regarding this... “into your hands I commit my Spirit”. Just as Adam, Jesus would have to return HIS Spirit to God at HIS death... Adam died and his Spirit returned to God. 

Jesus’s Spirit could NOT die but HE gave it back to God before HIS death. 

When Adam (us) are resurrected, God will bring back our bodies and also return that same lost Spirit to us. When Jesus was resurrected He once again had HIS body AND HIS Spirit restored within HIM. 

HE has shown us exactly what will take place at our resurrection. It is ALL about being RESTORED to the Garden. 

Just my thoughts, Charlie