What is the "Apostasy" mentioned at 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

No its not brother, this is a fact. Look at the Joel 2:31 Prophecy, then look at the 6th Seal Prophecy, BOTH are fulfilled in the Rev. 8 first four Trumps. See the Sun and Moons light diminished in the 4th Trump. God Judges this evil world over a 42 month period of time. The Anti-Christ uses this chaos to GO FORTH Conquering.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


WHO IS THE "YE" THAT SHALL SEE THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

 

 

 

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

 

WHO IS TO PRAY?

 

 

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, THOSE DAYS BE SHORTENED.  WHO ARE THE ELECT?  ARE THEY PART OF THE MANY MEMBERED BODY OR NOT?
ARE THESE "DAYS BE SHORTENED" NOW EQUAL TO THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION?  DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH SATAN AND HIS ANGELS RULING FOR AN HOUR?
 

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

IS THIS MAN SAYING THIS BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?  IF SO HOW CAN ANYONE BELIEVE IN PRE TRIBULATION CHRIST COMING WHEN WE ARE TOLD NOT TO?

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

WHO IS HE TELLING ALL THIS TO?  AND IF THEY WONT' BE HERE WHY IS HE TELLING THEM?

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Well then, maybe you won't refuse to answer this again

Does Jesus leave the war raging in heaven to come get the church or does He come get it before the war starts or does He follow right after Satan but arrive before?  

To me these are not relevant, when you see "War in heaven" you do realize a war where one side can't win is not really a war right? THINK ABOUT IT......ITS SINKING IN, NOW it should be affirmed, the only war was God kicking Satan and his minions out of the Heavens, not the throne room, but the heavenlies above.

Satan is kicked out at the midway point of the 70th week, Jesus returns at the 7th vial, you do the math.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

2 Thessalonians 2:11 AND FOR THIS CAUSE GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE.  

 

Maybe its so the post tribbers would be warned they are being deceived? 

You see how those things can be used both ways? That's why I just stay with the scriptures and prove these scriptures via their own truths.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What is this "delusion"?  


Would that be like saying God will be treating ONE generation different than every other one that has ever been?

Would that be like saying God for one generation and one generation only will stop be a respecter of persons and become one?

Would that be like saying God will no longer be "JUST" to all,  but this one generation will be treated differently?  

Ummm, no, I don't think you quite get this point sister. Its referencing verse 9, via "THE LAWLESS ONE COMING" thus its saying that those who accept this Lawless One will gain strong delusion, well, we know when you accept the Mark of the Beast you are a hopeless cause. So, no other Generations ACCEPTED the Mark of the Beast and thus affirmed in their hearts they would serve a Man as their God via a covenant with him. This is why they are treated different. Its about their own actions. 

Its speaking about human beings on this earth in general, not about the Church which is in heaven at this time, NOR about the Remnant Church on earth. 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WHERE DOES GOD SAY THE ELDERS ARE THE CHURCH pre trib raptured?  

NO WHERE.  

THAT IS JUST MADE THAT UP. 

You can underline the words and note the white raiment and crowns of gold but IT NEVER SAYS THAT THEY ARE THE "PRE TRIB RAPTURED CHURCH".  YOU SEEM TO DISCOUNT THE MILLIONS  THAT HAVE RETURNED TO THE LORD BEFORE THE LAST GENERATION LIVES ON EARTH.  YOU DON'T THINK THEY WOULD BE ELDERS.  SAY LIKE ABRAHAM, ISSAC, ENOCH, ELIJAH, OR THE APOSTLES OR THE HEADS OF THE TWELVE TRIBES?   WHAT ABOUT THE PROPHETS WHO OVERCAME REAL PERSECUTION LIKE TORTURE AND DEATH? 

SO THE PRE TRIB RAPTURED CHURCH IS NOT SEEN HERE, YOU JUST SAY IT IS. 

 

BUT GOD NEVER SAYS IT, NOT THAT THAT EVER STOPS IT from pouring out.

Jesus told the Disciples why he gave them Parables, so that the world hearing would not understand, and seeing would not understand, but the Church/Disciples would understand. 

If one can add 2 + 2 = 4 then they can understand that the 24 Elders ae the Church in Heaven. That is an EASY ONE as per the book of Revelation. I know all of the codes and reasonings in the book of Revelation. Rev. 5:9 says they are REDEEMED who do you think they are? Angels do not need redeeming. 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The Body of Christ doesn't have an end.  The fulness of the gentiles DOES NOT END AN AGE.  THE RETURN OF CHRIST ends an age and His return ends all flesh and blood.  

SO WE do not see.  WE BELIEVE that those promises are not made to the last generation only.  WE BELIEVE that Christians have been around for many generations. 

THE PRIESTHOOD is not made up of "pre raptured church" as we can see in the millennial temple.  Unless you are saying that all the church is made up of nothing but Levitical Priests.  

We are made Kings and Priests says the Holy Word. Let every man be a liar bit God can not lie. 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

How can the entire church RECEIVE the crown of life and be faithful unto death if it hasn't come up against death yet?  

The Rapture happens PRE TRIB, thus every person in Heaven has been TRANSLATED by this time, the Remnant Church on earth are treated different, in Rev. 20:4 we see that those who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast are the ONLY ONES who are allowed to serve on earth with Jesus for 1000 years. 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Once again, heaven is not made up of the Pre trib church.  REMEMBER BEFORE SATAN IS KICKED OUT THERE IS A WAR RAGING.  WHO DO YOU SUPPOSE IS FIGHTING IN THAT WAR?

There are many many many generations.  How do you figure only the last generation accounts for everything??  

Who are the REDEEMED in Rev. 5:9 ? Out of every NATION !! Hmm, there is but ONE ANSWER. Its the Church in Heaven, just as Rev. 19 shows us.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The same assumption again and again and again.  THESE PEOPLE in heaven before the seals are opened are 

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It is the Church sister. I have never seen people who want to go through the tribulation or 70th week so bad that they just refuse to see the obvious.

 

God Bless sister. Don't sweat it. We will all be in Heaven before the Wrath of God falls, in spite of what some people think.

[David1701]

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Departing = the Gathering unto Christ in the very first verse. I truly have no clue how you guys can continue to argue a defeated position. 

The 24 Elders are the Church.

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So, the Church is seen here with many of the promises they were PROMISED if they OVERCAME. Doubt what I am saying? Well, READ the letters to the 7 Churches !!

Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Now, how is it you guys can't put this together? The Church Age is Rev. 2 and 3, then in Rev. 4:1 we see THE RAPTURE, then in Rev. 4:4 we see the very PROMISES promised to those that overcame, with the "24 Elders". And in 1 Chronicles 24 we see there are 24 Orders of the Priesthood. (NOW REMEMBER THAT)

So, lets look at Rev. 5:9-10.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and PREISTS (24 Orders/24 Elders): and we shall reign on the earth.

So, who are these people in Heaven BEFORE Jesus opens the Seals? Well of course it is the Raptured Church, it tells US that in plain speak. They are REDEEMED by the BLOOD of Jesus Christ out of EVERY NATION !! So it is the Raptured Church as seen IN HEAVEN BEFORE any of the Seals have been broken. You guts have zero argument, yet you continue to trudge of, in spite of the facts, I don't get it tbh.

 

The reason for my post, was to dispel your implication that Bibles before the KJV support your theory that the apostasy is in fact our going up to meet the Lord in the air.  I quoted the Geneva Bible, which was before the KJV, to prove to you that this is not the case.  They treated the "departing" as a departing from God.

[JoeCanada]

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" (First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110)

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)
Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church."   (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3)

Note: What is the point of this non scriptural evidence from the church fathers? It is very simple. We have seen the evidence of what the church fathers said about the tribulation and the persecution under the antichrist. If these people, who were the ones who very closely followed after the apostles, all believed that that the church would go through the tribulation and persecution from the antichrist, then it must be obvious that the Apostles never taught a pre-tribulation rapture. God bless you.

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, David1701 said:

The reason for my post, was to dispel your implication that Bibles before the KJV support your theory that the apostasy is in fact our going up to meet the Lord in the air.  I quoted the Geneva Bible, which was before the KJV, to prove to you that this is not the case.  They treated the "departing" as a departing from God.

And its not relevant what todays Strong's say it "MEANT" and/or other sources. The point being, if a writer writes an article in the 1920s or 30s and calls a man gay, we can't just drag a dictionary out in the modern age and say, well, he was a homosexual, it says so RIGHT THERE in that book/mag/article, what ever it was. Word morph throughout history. So, we have to understand what the meaning was at the time, not in todays world. I find it odd they people who supposedly study these old text do not understand this. This was 101 for me in my initial Exegesis work, I had to understand that biblical translators were mere men with AGENDAS in a lot of cases. Sometimes they just missed it, a great example id Daniel chapter 8, they interpret the SAME EXACY WORDS in two different ways, in the same exact chapter (LOL). So, they did not understand the passage, thus they got its meaning wrong, leading others in the wrong direction in a very important number the 2300.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

So, is this actually 2300 days? NO, its a BAD TRANSLATION. Its easily proven. Lets look at my Hebrew Massoretic transliteration.

Daniel 8:13  Then I heard 8085 z8799 one 259 saint 6918 speaking, 1696 z8764 and another 259 saint 6918 said 559 z8799 unto that certain 6422 [saint] which spake, 1696 z8764 How long x5704 x4970 [shall be] the vision 2377 [concerning] the daily 8548 [sacrifice], and the transgression 6588 of desolation, 8074 z8802 to give 5414 z8800 both the sanctuary 6944 and the host 6635 to be trodden under foot? 4823

14 And he said 559 z8799 unto x413 me, Unto x5704 two thousand 505 and three 7969 hundred 3967 days; 6153 1242 then shall the sanctuary 6944 be cleansed. 6663 z8738

Look in verse 14 behind days, we get TWO NUMBERS not one, thus we get 6153 and 1242, why TWO NUMBERS ? Because it is TWO WORDS, not one word DAY.

6153 = #6153 עֶרֶב `ereb {eh'-reb} from H6150; TWOT - 1689a; n m

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) evening, night, sunset 1a) evening, sunset 1b) night

—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)

From H6150; dusk:— + day, even (-ing, tide), night.

—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)

 

#6153. עֶרֶב ereb (787d); from an unused word; evening:—

NASB - evening(114), evening*(1), evenings(2), every evening(1), night(2), sunset(1), twilight(11).

—NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries

So the Hebrew word "EREB" means EVENING.......Not Day.

1242 =  #1242 בֹּקֶר boqer {bo'-ker} from H1239; TWOT - 274c; n m

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) morning, break of day 1a) morning 1a1) of end of night 1a2) of coming of daylight 1a3) of coming of sunrise 1a4) of beginning of day 1a5) of bright joy after night of distress (fig.) 1b) morrow, next day, next morning

—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)

From H1239; properly dawn (as the break of day); generally morning:— (+) day, early, morning, morrow.

—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)

Likewise, BOQER does not mean Day either, it means MORNING.

So, we have ONE WORD in the translated KJV, but the Original Hebrew has TWO WORDS, Evening and Morning. So, there are 2300 Evening and Morning SACRIFICES that are to be missed, not 2300 "DAYS". 

What is an Evening and Morning Sacrifice? Well, lets look at Daniel 9:21, it just so happens to tell us. When Daniel was fasting and Praying, Gabriel came unto him about the time of the EVENING OBLATION (offering/tribute).

Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

So, there were MORNING Sacrifices/Oblations AND Evening Sacrifices/Oblations. So the 2300 is really 1150 days because there are TWO DAILY, the Evening and Morning.

And the exact same chapter in verse 26 translates it as it should be translated.

Dan. 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

And the vision 4758 of the evening 6153 and the morning 1242 which x834 was told 559 z8738 [is] true: 571 wherefore shut thou up 5640 z8798 x859 the vision; 2377 for x3588 it [shall be] for many 7227 days. 3117

Look above at the EVENING & MORNING, they have the exact same TWO NUMBERS that were translated DAYS above, but here the are properly translated, Evening and Morning. Thus its not 2300 days, its 2300 Evening and Morning SACRIFICES. And if you don't think that is important, it is, the Anti-Christ reign thus fits now because he reigns only 1260 days. Anything of 1260 days would nit fit the Anti-Christ. 

My point is I do not care what people SAY IT MEANS today, or even what they said it meant 500 years ago, I only care that Paul used the word DEPARTURE, and I can tell what was DEPARTING by reading the passage and using common sense. 

Its much easier for me because I can see the Rapture throughout the bible, and there will be a pre 70th week Rapture of the Church. 

My EXAMPLE ABOVE should prove that one needs to be weary about trusting translations, its men who are fallible, and in the case of the English Church and the RCC they had AGENDAS, and we know by their torture of human beings, they were not past doing evil in God's name. It looks like the KJV translators were taking a swipe at Catholicism via placing a "FALLING AWAY" in there, and it has nothing to do with Faith, and everything to do with the Church Departing, thus there being no need to fear. 

 

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" (First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110)

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)
Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church."   (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3)

Note: What is the point of this non scriptural evidence from the church fathers? It is very simple. We have seen the evidence of what the church fathers said about the tribulation and the persecution under the antichrist. If these people, who were the ones who very closely followed after the apostles, all believed that that the church would go through the tribulation and persecution from the antichrist, then it must be obvious that the Apostles never taught a pre-tribulation rapture. God bless you.

Paul...........The Church will Depart BEFORE the Anti-Christ comes to power so FEAR NOT. I could care less what those guys said. 

 

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Paul...........The Church will Depart BEFORE the Anti-Christ comes to power so FEAR NOT. I could care less what those guys said. 

 

Ron,

Well brother, you have that right to 'care less what those guys said'. Or any other guys for that matter.

And, you have the right to only believe what you want to believe, be it scriptural or not, you do have that right. 

You also have the right to avail yourself to various pre-trib Christian teachers, such as Dr Thomas Ice,  John Walvoord, Andy Woods....and ?????

I don't think that believing in a certain rapture position affects our destiny, though if ever I was shown to be wrong on this point, then I would change my stance.

 We are either followers of Jesus or we are not. 

Having said that, I would like to share with you a scripture that shows the 2300 evenings and mornings to be just that.....2300, and not 1150.

If we go back to the very beginning, we find in Genesis the story of creation.

"There was evening and there was morning....one day"

'There was evening and there was morning... a second day"

"There was evening and there was morning...a third day"

All the way thru to the sixth day.

But.... you probably have an explanation why this " evening and morning" isn't actually "a day". 

Do you believe in an actual 7 day creation?

[JoeCanada]

Here, now, is the "apostacy" in America. No, not the "rapture". This is the real "apostacy"...............the great falling away. The great falling away from God's truth!

Evangelical Christianity comprises only about 15% of the current population in the US.

That figure has dropped from 21%, 10 years ago.

 Here is what a very alarming George Barna survey from the Cultural Research Centre at Arizona Christian University released just last month indicates:

(remember, this is from a 15% of the total population of Evangelical Christians)

• 48% believe a person who is good enough or does enough good works can earn eternal salvation
• 44% do not believe that history is the unfolding narrative of God’s reality
• 44% claim the Bible is ambiguous in its teaching about abortion
• 43% maintain that when Jesus was on earth, He sinned
• 43% do not believe that there is a common, God-given purpose to humanity (i.e., to know, love and serve Him)
• 42% seek moral guidance primarily from sources other than the Bible
• 42% do not identify and confess their sins on a daily basis
• 40% do not believe that human life is sacred
• 40% accept lying as morally acceptable if it advances personal interests or protect one’s reputation
• 39% identify the people they always respect as being only those who have the same beliefs as they possess
• 36% prefer socialism to capitalism
• 36% fail to seek and pursue God’s will for their life each day
• 34% reject the idea of legitimate marriage as one man and one woman
• 34% argue that abortion is morally acceptable if it spares the mother from financial or emotional discomfort or hardship
• 32% do not thank or worship God each day

https://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/evangelical-christianity-in-crisis

So, if you still think that there isn't a "great falling away"....ie: "apostacy".....then perhaps you should go to a mechanic shop and get your eyes and ears 'unwelded"

Or go to the doctor and see if they have anything for CRI.....

........................................Cranial Rectum Inversion

[DeighAnn]

22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Satan is kicked out at the midway point of the 70th week, Jesus returns at the 7th vial, you do the math.

Satan comes first.  

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Ron,

Well brother, you have that right to 'care less what those guys said'. Or any other guys for that matter.

And, you have the right to only believe what you want to believe, be it scriptural or not, you do have that right. 

Again, Rev 5:9 shows the Church is IN HEAVEN BEFORE the Seals are opened. You however want to keep debating a dead horse brother, Paul is speaking about the Church DEPARTING, I back it up with an informative blog. You bring forth other men's confusion. I don't need other men's points that are confused on the subject just like you, I only need your point of view, since it agrees with them. There is ZERO point in that whole passage where Faith is being spoken of, yet we are to believe Paul is speaking about Faith. I just SMH to be honest. 

Anyone who can't see the Rapture is Pre Trib I am suspect of as per hearing what they offer up, and I have always been. When you see this, you will see other places they venture off course. The Church RETURNS with Jesus in Rev. 19, the Church is seen in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened. The Thessalonians are told not to Fear because the Church DEPARTS BEFORE the Wrath of God, they were not told DON'T FEAR the Apostacy must happen first, and I Paul know that can't happen until you are dead. You see, Paul couldn't say that, in fact most Disciples thought and hoped Jesus would return in their lifetimes or very close to it, that is the reason Jesus spoke to them in Matt. 24 and told them they would all be killed for his names sake.

Paul did not know when the Rapture was going to happen, so he could not tell the Thessalonians not to fear, and they wouldn't go through the Wrath of God, he told them that because the Church Departs first. We are not destined for the Wrath of God. You seem to think God's Wrath is ONE DAY, you can not study the bible in depth and think that way brother. I have been studying the bible 40 years and preaching for nigh 35, tbh I see all kind of things that make me want to pull out what little hair I have left. People take other peoples opinions and run with them, instead of putting in the grunt work themselves and allowing God to teach them. That is why I do not fall for these bogus stances like the Muslim/Arab Joel Richardson books, I like Joel fine, he's a really nice guy, but I have told him, that stuff is not in the bible brother, he disagrees, but he is a very nice guy, unlike most people who are off on a tangent, he admits he could be wrong.

The bottom line is, according to biblical teaching I am correct and you are incorrect on the timing of the Rapture. And you have been proven wrong brother, you just will not admit it. The Nations of REDEEMED MEN/Peoples are seen in Rev. 5:9 BEFORE the Seals are ever opened. You know it, I know it, we all know it. That's a WRAP

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Having said that, I would like to share with you a scripture that shows the 2300 evenings and mornings to be just that.....2300, and not 1150.

If we go back to the very beginning, we find in Genesis the story of creation.

"There was evening and there was morning....one day"

'There was evening and there was morning... a second day"

"There was evening and there was morning...a third day"

All the way thru to the sixth day.

That would be correct brother, IF what is being TAKEN AWAY was days or daily sacrifices, but that is not what is taken away, its THE EVEBING & MORNING SACRIFICES that are being taken away, and the reference is to the NUMBER of Sacrifices being taken away. You have to look at the whole passage in order to get a good understanding of where this is heading as per the Evening and the Morning Sacrifice. The Jews paid tribute twice daily.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven(Jerusalem); and it cast down some of the host and of the stars(Jewish Saints) to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host(Jewish High Priest or THE False Prophet in this case), and by him(False Prophet/Jewish High Priest takes away Jesus Worship) the daily sacrifice(Jesus Worship/tribute to Jesus) was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days (Evening and Morning SACRIFICES); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

What is being taken away is the Evening AND Morning Sacrifice or Jesus Worship twice a day in the Temple of God. 

 

Gabriel Interprets the Dream for Daniel

Dan. 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. 18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes(Jesus); but he shall be broken without hand(Jesus SPEAKS Victory). 26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. 27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

For starters, we know this is THE ANTI-CHRIST, and we know he only rules for 1260 days, so there can be no Sacrifice TAKEN WAY for 2300 days, BESIDES, we know that THE SACRIFICE (Jesu Worship) is taken away at the 1290, which is 1290 days until Jesus' Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS. So the 2300 does not fit to start with, which is why we must go line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. 

There are 2300 OBLATIONS that are taken away, just like Daniel was worshiping God/Praying/Fasting at the EVENING Oblation, which is ONE SACRIFICE. It didn't say at the Evening AND Morning, it said at the Evening Sacrifice. 

Thus the 2300 Evening and Morning Oblations (Sacrifices) mean just that, 2300 Sacrifices are taken away, not 2300 days. 

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Do you believe in an actual 7 day creation?

This is just not plausible. God created the Universe in 7 YOWMS, meaning Seven Time Periods. Yu do know that YOWM does not stand fir day right? It means in Hebrew a PERIOD OF TIME and then with the info you have to fill in the blank. We see YOWM referred to as Day more than any other time, of course, but it is referenced as YEAR, MONTH, INFINITE TIME, SEASONS, X MARK THE SPOT etc. etc. And in this instance, the First Day was like 9.2 billion years.

My Blog on this......on Quora

Do you believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old or 600 years old?

I as a 30 year Christian try to think outside the box of normality. Is the universe 6000 years old? Is the universe 13.7 billion years old? Do these two questions clash or is there a translation barrier !! This is how I think. I try to bring both poles of thought towards each other starting with the facts. We know the universe has to be over 6000 years old because we see light from stars that are millions of light years away, so we would have to be naive to think the universe is 6000 years old.

Onward to what Genesis says about creation, does it really say the universe or earth is 6000 years old? I don’t think it does, I think its a mistranslation of a primitive language that had only around 4000 words at the time Genesis was written, whereas the English language has 500,000 words. So many of the Hebrew words were used in multiple ways. For instance the original meaning of the Hebrew word YOWM (Day) means “to be hot” and there are at least 50 other meanings listed in Strong’s concordance’s lexicon of Hebrew words. A year, a month, a period of time, chronicles, evening and morning (Beginning and end), age, perpetually, long, some time, whole, X required season, continually etc. etc., well you get the point.

YOWM or “To be hot”, what would this mean and why was it used since God is supposed to have given Moses the first five books of the Torah. Well when the universe was spoken into existence by God, it took 400 million years for the first stars to form. So the first Day (to be hot) was the Evening (Darkness, 400 million years of darkness) and the Morning ( The stars started forming) and the first day was a “period of time” and in my opinion it lasted from 13.7 Billion BC until 4.5 Billion BC (9.2 Billion years) when the Sun & Earth were formed. So lets take a second and look at the Bible and the WMAP research and see if this matches.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now look below at the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) which launched in 2001 and won many awards, they mapped the whole universe out. Below as we see, you had Quantum Fluctuations which I contend is God, then you had Inflation, followed by Afterglow, followed by 400 MILLION YEARS of Darkness !! Just like the bible says in verse 2, and there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep !! Gods word is perfect, it is us who are confused. DARK AGES Mapped out by the WMAP, followed by what? The first stars forming at the 400 million year mark. Verse three says what? and God said “Let there be light” God is right again. We are looking at Creation from Gods POV, no man was there of course and with God he is not subject to time, he created time for us via this universe, but He is eternal and thus was never created. Remember the verse, a thousand years is like a day and a day like unto a thousand years unto God. In other words God lives in the past, present and future all at the same time.

So we had the Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 375,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce.

The first stars appear….Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the big bang. So, when the bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! The more we look for the answers, the more that science and the bible will converge, if both sides with differing viewpoints would only take their blinders off.

The second day (period of time) of course would be from the Earth & the Suns formation until the grasses and trees came forth on the Third day (period of time) then on the Fourth day it seems God Set the Seasons or placed the Moon in its perfect orbit where our seasons are not strange, but orderly, I know the moon and earth is supposed to have collided. Anyway, that set the seasons, times, years etc. etc. Mind you, all of these ideas are rudimentary observations. A theory of how the things God says in His Holy Word and Science can both be factual. They are not meant to imply everything went down just so and in like manner, the dates of course are guesstimates, I wasn’t there.

On the Fifth day God created the Sea animals/birds and what not, were the Dinos created here or with the land animals? The fifth day lasted 300 million to 400 million years or so. On the Sixth Day around 300–350 Million BC God created the Land Animals. During this period of time the Dinosaurs became extinct about 70 Million years ago. Then during this “TIME PERIOD” (6TH DAY) God decided to create man 6000 or so years ago. Some might protest that men have been around much longer, but I offer this up, where is the data? Men are record keepers and we don’t have proof of men going back further. Now as per “MEN” being observed by scientists to have been around X Number of years, I never said Animal like men weren’t around, I stated Human Beings were created 6000 years ago, when God placed His spirit in us and thus we are immortal in that our souls can not die. We were at that point in time “Created in Gods Image”. The other fossils and bones mean nothing, because Scientists have no way of testing for God imparting His spirit into mankind and creating “Human Beings” with powerful intellects.

On the Seventh Day God rested, which only means He ceased Creating the Heavens/Earth/Mankind/Animals. So when we see stars and galaxies created today, it was ordered forth 13.7 Billion years ago. So its not necessarily either or. We need to start looking at things with an open mind, be we an atheist or a Christian.

P.S. Just something to think about. Einstein’s theory of relativity is in the very first verse of the bible, relatively speaking…LOL.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heaven(SPACE) and the earth(MATTER).

Edited November 17, 2020 by Revelation Man