Great tribulation

[iamlamad]

6 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Yes.... absolutely....they are sequential. Add the 7th seal in there as well.

You are batting 1,000.................. 

So here is where the problems start. First you say that "since wrath begins at the sixth seal..... THEN you state ...."He begins pouring out His wrath in the trumpets.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential. So God's Wrath does not begin until the blowing of the first trumpet. The 6th seal only announces God's wrath. It doesn't actually begin until the angel blows the first trumpet. 

Again, God's wrath does not commence until the first trumpet is blown.

"The Church arrives in heaven before"......

Well, lets look at the sixth seal. When the Lamb breaks the sixth seal.....there was a great earthquake, sun became black, the moon like blood, the sky splits apart, every mountain and island moved out of their place...... then the kings of the earth et al hide in the caves and says to the rocks "hide us from the presence of Him....the great day of their wrath has come......THEN.....the 144,000 are sealed......THEN.....AFTER THESE THINGS......I looked and a great multitude (appeared) in heaven.

If you maintain that John's order is chronological..... then you must follow John's order. The Church does not arrive BEFORE the 6th seal is opened, because that would still be at the 5th seal......even if you say its at the very end of the 5th seal....seconds before the 6th seal is opened...... that still makes it at the 5th seal.

And the Church doesn't even arrive at the very beginning of the 6th seal. All the other events listed above happen FIRST..... according to John's chronology.

And you have always maintained that "anyone who rearranges John's chronology to fit their doctrine will be proven wrong"

This IS John's chronology.

Even if you say that Rev 7 is a parenthesis, Rev 6 is not, so the chronology in Rev 6 at the 6th seal follows the sequences laid out above. 

The 144,000 are sealed..... then the church is seen in heaven....as Rev 7 shows. The 144,000 are NOT sealed in Chapter 6. 

So here is where the problems start.   No, no real problems. Some imagine problems. (who took away the text colors?)

Is it possible the DAY starts as something official, without any "event" that comes with wrath? What is the first "event" after the DAY begins? I submit it is the first trumpet judgment. In other words, God can be angry, have wrath, but at that moment not do anything with His wrath. On the other hand, is it possible that the great earthquake at the 6th seal comes with His wrath? (I am asking.)

The seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential. So God's Wrath does not begin until the blowing of the first trumpet. The 6th seal only announces God's wrath. Unless the earthquake comes with His wrath. I tend to agree with you. I used to think the earthquake was the start of His wrath.  

THEN.....AFTER THESE THINGS......I looked and a great multitude (appeared) in heaven. Hold your horses! Whoa - back!  When John saw this great crowd, they were already there in heaven: John did not inform us as to the exact moment they arrived. Along a time-line, chapter 7 may be very little time after the 6th seal.  In other words, John did not see them arrive (the rapture) - he only saw them some unknown time AFTER they had arrived. Therefore I see no problems.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

Rev. 3:21 
"He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne."

Fail. 

It is always the FATHER on the throne, and the son is at the right hand of the Father. However, it is a BIG throne according to people who have seen it.  There are over a dozen verses that tell us Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. My point still stands: How could anyone from earth SEE God's throne? I submit that verse does not tell us they SAW God. They only want to HIDE from Him.

No fail.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Revelation 3:21 states otherwise. It clearly states he is seated on hi Father's throne. The word "on" means on. The phrase "at his right hand" or to be someone's "right hand" is not always about geography. Jesus is the right hand of God no matter where he happens to be sitting. And since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all One there's only one throne. The two statements, "It is God the FATHER on the throne. It does not give any position for the Lamb." are both incorrect.

So, yes, Fail. Big ginormous Uber-Fail. 

 

Here's something else for you to consider: According to scripture The heavens are God's throne, and the earth is His footstool. So to imagine a literal chair called a "throne" in heaven would mean there is a throne in the throne, a chair throne in the throne of the heavens. 

Isaiah 66:1-2
"Thus says the LORD, 'Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?  For My hand made all these things, thus all these things came into being,' declares the LORD. 'But to this one I will look, to him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word."

The apostle Stephen quotes Isaiah in Acts 7, 

Acts 7:48-50 ESV
"Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says,  ‘Heaven is My throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?  Did not my hand make all these things?’" 

Did you catch that part about God's hand making all things?

John 1:1-3
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things came into being through him, and apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being."

1 Corinthians 8:6
"...yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 

Colossians 1:13-17
"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,  in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.  For by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through him and for him.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

One throne, and the whole Godhead, not just the Father is seated there. Theologically speaking, there has never been a fraction of a sliver of a nanosecond when Jesus has not been King of Kings and Lord of Lords to the glory of his Father. 

 

Here's one more thing for you to consider (this is really gonna wreck the dispies): 

Acts 2:29-31 ESV
“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.  Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,  he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption."

According to Peter the "throne of David" the throne God pledged to David's descendent is the resurrection!!!

 

So do you think there are lots of thrones laying around from which Jesus chooses depending on role or day or mood? Or maybe there's just one actual throne (his deity)?

AMPC

He who overcomes (is victorious), I will grant him to sit beside Me on My throne, as I Myself overcame (was victorious) and sat down beside My Father on His throne.

 

From this verse we see "my throne" and we see "His [the Father's] throne. 

 

Ezekiel 1:²⁶ And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

 

Isa 6:1

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

 

Mat 26:64

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

Acts 7:55

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

People have been to heaven recently, just as Isaiah saw the throne and Ezekiel saw the throne. I have a book about a 4 year old girl that sat on Jesus' lap on His throne. She was asked: "did He lift you up?" She answered, "no, I just climbed up. He wanted me up." She saw the four beasts and the wheels within wheels. She even tried to draw a picture of the throne. Could she sit with the Father? I think not. 

 

I remember someone who has been there and came back say that Jesus invited this man to sit with Him on His throne. 

 

Until we SEE it, we can only guess. From those that have seen it and came back to tell, the throne itself is HUGE. And God the FAther on the throne is simply TOO BRIGHT to look at. People say they saw perhaps a foot and part of his leg. 

 

My guess is, Jesus throne is some distance from where the FAther sits, but it is all one throne. One man saw Jesus walk right into the Father, and the two become one - then walk right back out. I guess this is while the Father is sitting on His throne. The little girl saw this too: she said when they went together, there was fireworks! 

 

One day we will SEE IT! 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

Blessedly, sound scripture-based thought, doctrine, and practice is not based on guess. Scripture states what it states and based on what the whole of it states there is much that can and cannot be reasoned. In this particular case we have a verse that plainly states Jesus is seated with his Father on his Father's throne. Start there. No guessing. 

It is OK to guess on things that scripture does not state. We don't have a detailed blueprint of the throne of God.  And again you did not read that correctly. 

 

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Notice, "my throne" and "His throne." Yet, we have at least a dozen verses that tell us Jesus went to sit at the right hand of the Father, and Stephen SAW Him there. 

Anyway, it is a silly argument because Jesus and the Father are ONE  - so the FAther's throne is the Son's throne and the Son's throne is the Father's throne. No guessing: solid WORD.

What we can guess about is what it LOOKS like. I have never seen it - yet. Have you?

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

Isn't that convenient; you found an English translation to suit your view. Let's now take a look at what Revelation 3:21 actually states when not "amplified" and then examine the Greek from which all the English translations originate. You'll see from the link I just provided only the Good News Translation includes the word "beside'> NONE of the others do so and that includes all the literal translations, the "formal" translations of the KJV, NAS, and ESV. If you then click on the "Greek" tab in the upper right hand section of the page you'll be taken to the Greek where you'll find this transliteration: 

Revelation 3:21 Greek transliteration 
"The overcoming I will give to him to sit with me on the throne of me as I also overcame and sat down with the Father of me on the throne of Him."

No mention of the word "beside." 

So those are the facts of the text. They're not up for debate. We can discuss the meaning of the text, but not what it actually states. What it actually states is exactly what I have posted here, in the previous post and the one before that and the one before that. You are arguing against the facts. It was claimed there is no scripture placing the Son on God's throne but that proves not to be the case. 

The only question is whether you'll bow to the facts of scripture and adjust your thinking, your doctrine(s), and you practices (posting) to be consistent with what Revelation 3:21 clearly states. 

 

Here's your wiggle room: Proof-texting is never sound practice. I'm not a big fan of it, and frequently decry its practice here in Worthy. Sadly, it happens a lot. We wouldn't want to form doctrine over a single verse. That's why I wrote previously about they cultural and idiomatic contexts of the phrase "right hand," and spoke theologically about the throne and Christ as King. In the midst of all that scripture says on all of these inter-related conditions we have this one verse that plainly, explicitly, unavoidably, undeniably, and irrefutably states Jesus is seated with his Father on His Father's throne. 

That's a big problem for two-throners.

So before we continue here's a simple yes or no question: Will you concede to the facts of Revelation 3:21 and acknowledge there is actually a verses stating Jesus is seated with his Father on his Father's throne? Yes or not will suffice. Do please feel at liberty to add relevant comment or inquiry but not at the expense of avoiding the question asked. There's no sense in us continuing if you can't or won't acknwoledge the facts of scripture as written, plainly read, without additional additions, subtractions, or "interpretations." 

 

And for future reference: we live in an age where the facts of scripture are within a few mouse clicks. There's no excuse for posting the Amplified translation when you could have saved both you and I time, effort, and cyberspace and checked the Greek before posting. I just timed it. It took me all of 12 seconds to call up the verse and the link to the Greek. Is it worth 12 seconds of your life for you to be correct, for you to post facts and truth, for you and I to find places of agreement with God's word as written? I sure hope so. 

So do we have any agreement Rev. 3:21 does actually state Jesus is seated with his Father  on his Father's throne or not? 

Do you form doctrine from an isolated verse? A true Berean searches the scriptures. As I said before, there are at least a dozen verses that say Jesus went to sit at the right hand of the Father. Do you imagine there is room enough for only one Being on the throne? Please be advised, logic would tell us, if Jesus is beside the Father on the throne, there is room for two.

Next, have you SEEN the throne? 

Next, have you translated the entire Bible? Until you have, I will submit to those that have - as follows.

KJ21

To him that overcometh, will I grant to sit with Me on My throne, even as I also overcame and am set down with My Father on His throne.

ASV

He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

AMP

He who overcomes [the world through believing that Jesus is the Son of God], I will grant to him [the privilege] to sit beside Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down beside My Father on His throne.

AMPC

He who overcomes (is victorious), I will grant him to sit beside Me on My throne, as I Myself overcame (was victorious) and sat down beside My Father on His throne.

BRG

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

CSB

“To the one who conquers I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

CEB

As for those who emerge victorious, I will allow them to sit with me on my throne, just as I emerged victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

CJB

I will let him who wins the victory sit with me on my throne, just as I myself also won the victory and sat down with my Father on his throne.

CEV

Everyone who wins the victory will sit with me on my throne, just as I won the victory and sat with my Father on his throne.

DARBY

He that overcomes, to him will I give to sit with me in my throne; as *I* also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne.

DLNT

The one overcoming— I will give him authority to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

DRA

To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

ERV

“I will let everyone who wins the victory sit with me on my throne. It was the same with me. I won the victory and sat down with my Father on his throne.

EHV

To the one who is victorious I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

ESV

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

ESVUK

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

EXB

“Those who ·win the victory [overcome; conquer] will sit with me on my throne in the same way that I ·won the victory [overcame; conquered; ^Cover death, by his resurrection] and sat down with my Father on his throne.

GNV

To him that overcometh, will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I overcame, and sit with my Father in his throne.

GW

I will allow everyone who wins the victory to sit with me on my throne, as I have won the victory and have sat down with my Father on his throne.

GNT

To those who win the victory I will give the right to sit beside me on my throne, just as I have been victorious and now sit by my Father on his throne.

HCSB

The victor: I will give him the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I also won the victory and sat down with My Father on His throne.

ICB

“He who wins the victory will sit with me on my throne. It was the same with me. I won the victory and sat down with my Father on his throne.

ISV

I will give a place to sit with me on my throne to the one who overcomes, just as I have overcome and have sat down with my Father on his throne.

 

JUB

To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with my Father in his throne.

KJV

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

AKJV

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

LEB

The one who conquers, I will grant to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also have conquered and have sat down with my Father on his throne.

TLB

I will let everyone who conquers sit beside me on my throne, just as I took my place with my Father on his throne when I had conquered.

 

MEV

“To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

MOUNCE

As for the one who conquers, to him I will give the right to sit with me on · my throne, as I also conquered and sat with · my Father on · his throne.

NOG

I will allow everyone who wins the victory to sit with me on my throne, as I have won the victory and have sat down with my Father on his throne.

NABRE

I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne, as I myself first won the victory and sit with my Father on his throne.

NASB

The one who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne.

NASB1995

He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

NCV

“Those who win the victory will sit with me on my throne in the same way that I won the victory and sat down with my Father on his throne.

NET

I will grant the one who conquers permission to sit with me on my throne, just as I too conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

NIRV

‘Here is what I will do for anyone who has victory over sin. I will give that person the right to sit with me on my throne. In the same way, I had victory. Then I sat down with my Father on his throne.

NIV

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

NIVUK

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

NKJV

To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

NLV

I will allow the one who has power and wins to sit with Me on My throne, as I also had power and won and sat down with My Father on His throne.

NLT

Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.

NMB

To him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with me in my seat, even as I overcame and have sat with my Father in his seat.

NRSV

To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

NRSVA

To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

NRSVACE

To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

NRSVCE

To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

NTE

This will be my gift to the one who conquers: I will sit them beside me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat with my father on his throne.

OJB

The one who wins the nitzachon (victory), I will give to him to sit with me on the Kes (Throne) of me, as I also won the nitzachon and sat with Elohim Avi on the Kes (throne) of him.

TPT

And to the one who conquers I will give the privilege of sitting with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

RGT

‘To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, even as I overcame and sit with My Father on His throne.

RSV

He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

RSVCE

He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

TLV

To the one who overcomes I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I myself overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

VOICE

“The one who conquers through faithfulness even unto death I will place next to Me on My throne, just as I Myself conquered and took a place of honor with My Father on His throne.

WEB

He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

WE

He who wins will sit with me on my throne in heaven. I won too, and I sat down with my Father on his throne."

WYC

And I shall give to him that shall overcome, to sit with me in my throne, as also I overcame, and sat with my Father in his throne.

YLT

He who is overcoming -- I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.

 

Where do they get "my throne?

qronw.......mou
thronO......mou
G2362.......G3450
n_ Dat Sg m.pp 1 Gen Sg
THRONE......OF-ME

Throne "of me" could be said as "my throne," as all of these translators have done above. 

Finally, it is a silly argument because God is ONE.

Would I have a chair for me, another for myself, and yet another for "I?" (A chair for my body, another for my soul, and another for my spirit.) No, we all sit on one chair. But scripture shows us that God can separate Himself. While the Father stayed in heaven, the SON came to earth, and at the same time, the Holy Spirit was both everywhere and upon Jesus "without measure."

[Retrobyter]

On 12/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, iamlamad said:

It is always the FATHER on the throne, and the son is at the right hand of the Father. However, it is a BIG throne according to people who have seen it.  There are over a dozen verses that tell us Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. My point still stands: How could anyone from earth SEE God's throne? I submit that verse does not tell us they SAW God. They only want to HIDE from Him.

No fail.

Shalom, iamlamad.

There are no people who have seen it.

[iamlamad]

On 12/29/2020 at 7:45 AM, Josheb said:

No, that is incorrect. It is also a straw man. I'm not talking about mere guessing where scripture is silent. I'm talking about the reprehensible practice of forming doctrine on guesses and as I have just shown scripture is not silent on the matter. Fail on both accounts. 

The evidence proves otherwise. Jesus has a throne. That is not in dispute. The fact that he is seated on his Father's throne is the point of disagreement and the text plainly states (whether or not he has a throne of his own) he sate down with his Father on hhis Father's throne. 

And I asked if you could/would agree with scripture and that question wasn't answered. 

That question has already been answered in the negative in both word and deed. I summarized a plethora of scripture and culture and applied it to the verse both Rev. 3:21 and those mentioning the "right hand." Apparently that was either not read or ignored because if it had been read and taken in I wouldn't now be asked this already-answered question. 

And none of them are in dispute on my end of this conversation. It is you, not me, who is focused on the dozen or more right hand verses and ignoring all esle that scripture states. Jesus' having a throne is not in dispute. I'll make it clear for you:

Jesus has a throne.
Jesus has a throne.
Jesus has a throne.
Jesus has a throne.
Jesus has a throne.
Jesus has a throne.
Jesus has a throne.
Jesus has a throne.
Jesus has a throne.
Jesus has a throne.

Jesus has a throne. The fact remains Rev. 3:21 states he sat down with his Father on his Father's throne. You said there's no such verse assigning that throne to Jesus. There is. By focusing on the right hand - a point NOT in dispute - you're arguing a red herring. We're not talking about the right hand throne. We're talking about the fact Jesus sat down with his Father on his Father's throne. 

You just unnecessarily quoted a gazillion translation clearly stating Jesus sat down with his Father on his Father's throne.  

No, will you bow to the authority of scripture and what it plainly states, or will you continue to deny the verse, what it states, and apply contrary interpretations? 

We have beat this horse to death. 

Jesus and the Father are ONE. Their throne is ONE. When Jesus sits on the Father's throne, He is sitting on HIS throne. 

When I sit on a chair, all three parts of me are on that chair. But God is GOD, and He can separate. Jesus can walk into the Father and the two become one, and He can walk out and the two appear as two.

When Jesus appeared to Abraham, I believe the Father was at that same time on His throne. When Jesus came to earth to be born as a man, the Father was still on the throne. 

When we get there, we will SEE the throne with our own eyes. We may see both Jesus and the Father on ONE throne. 

(I am quite sure this horse is dead.)

Edited December 30, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 12/28/2020 at 10:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

There are no people who have seen it.

Those that have been there and have seen it will disagree with you. 

[Diaste]

On 12/27/2020 at 3:18 PM, JoeCanada said:

Well, lets look at the sixth seal. When the Lamb breaks the sixth seal.....there was a great earthquake, sun became black, the moon like blood, the sky splits apart, every mountain and island moved out of their place...... then the kings of the earth et al hide in the caves and says to the rocks "hide us from the presence of Him....the great day of their wrath has come......THEN.....the 144,000 are sealed......THEN.....AFTER THESE THINGS......I looked and a great multitude (appeared) in heaven.

If you maintain that John's order is chronological..... then you must follow John's order. The Church does not arrive BEFORE the 6th seal is opened, because that would still be at the 5th seal......even if you say its at the very end of the 5th seal....seconds before the 6th seal is opened...... that still makes it at the 5th seal.

And the Church doesn't even arrive at the very beginning of the 6th seal. All the other events listed above happen FIRST..... according to John's chronology.

And you have always maintained that "anyone who rearranges John's chronology to fit their doctrine will be proven wrong"

This IS John's chronology.

Very nice. 

"After this I saw..."

The 6th seal can be the only immediately preceding event.

"After this I looked and saw..."

The immediately preceding event is the sealing of the 144,000.

So...6th seal, sealing, great multitude...in that order. And apparently near in time to each other as well in an unbroken narrative; concurrent, I say.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 12/30/2020 at 10:02 AM, iamlamad said:

Those that have been there and have seen it will disagree with you. 

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Well, of course they will! Hallucinations can be VERY powerful and VERY realistic!