The Great Tribulation is no purgatory for the church / Foolish virgins scream......(scary stuff)

[Retrobyter]

On 12/21/2020 at 9:15 PM, R. Hartono said:

The wedding has already taken place in heaven of Rev 19, how can the army on white horses are angels to gather the wise virgins ?

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Because the wedding has NOT already taken place in some abstract "Heaven" by Revelation 19! It happens HERE ON THIS EARTH AFTER HE RETURNS!!!

Yeshua` said,

Matthew 26:29 (KJV)

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Yet, wine in an integral part of a Jewish wedding! (Notice what is said about the wine in the marriage at Cana in John 2.)

In the TANAKH, we read,

Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Micah 4:1-2 (KJV)

1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2 And many nations shall come, and say,

"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths!":

for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:1-5 (KJV)

1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say,

"Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths!":

for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

And, this was PROPHESIED of Yeshua` just before His conception!

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Furthermore, Yeshua` said in the Olivet Discourse,

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Where does this occur? In Jerusalem!

Psalm 48:1-2 (KJV)

1 {A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah.}

Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.

2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Zion is the mountain range upon which Jerusalem sits!

Yeshua` understood this because He quoted from this passage in the beatitudes:

Matthew 5:33-35 (KJV)

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

And, please remember that the Greek word "ouranos" means the "SKY!" So often, the word is said to be about some ethereal place, but the "third heaven" mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is the "third SKY" over TIME. It's not about "third" in the sense of "First heaven, of clouds; second, of stars; third, God's abode," as written in the center margin of page 1238 in the old Scofield Reference Edition of the KJV. It's in the sense of how Peter said it:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV) (Watch the highlighted phrases.)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation!" 

5 For this they WILLINGLY are ignorant of, that by the word of God
the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

(This is the FIRST "heavens" that occurred BEFORE the Flood, which happened in Noach's 600th year.)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

(This is the SECOND "heavens" that is occurring SINCE the Flood and will continue until "the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men" which is the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.)

8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

(THIS is the THIRD "heavens" that we look forward to, mentioned also in Revelation 21 and 22.)

I truly hope this helps you in these matters.

 

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

...
THERE IS NOT ONE PLACE WHERE CHRIST EVER TELLS US OF HIS RETURNING 
...

Shalom, DeighAnn.

REALLY?! "Not one place," huh? Have you even read Matthew 24 and 25? or Mark 13? or Luke 21? Have you even read Luke 19:29-37? Have you even read John 14:1-3? That's not about some fake, "ethereal" place called "Heaven," y'know. It's talking about Yeshua`s return!

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

(and HE sat down, "today this is fulfilled")


WHAT FOLLOWS? 


THE DAY OF VENGEANCE 

and the day of vengeance of our God;

to comfort all that mourn;

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion,

to give unto them beauty for ashes,

the oil of joy for mourning,

the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;

that they might be called trees of righteousness,

the planting of the LORD,

that He might be glorified.

And they shall build the old wastes,

they shall raise up the former desolations,

and they shall repair the waste cities,

the desolations of many generations.

 

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:21 And He began to say unto them,


This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Yes, the PROPHECY continues on, but Yeshua` STOPPED after the words "the year for accepting the LORD!" Why? Because the Day of Vengeance occurs WHEN THE LORD RETURNS, not while He was here the first time!

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

...
Acts 1:3 To whom also He shewed himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
...  

Which is a Kingdom that will come with the Messiah WHEN HE RETURNS!

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

halom, DeighAnn.

REALLY?! "Not one place," huh? Have you even read Matthew 24 and 25? or Mark 13? or Luke 21? Have you even read Luke 19:29-37? Have you even read John 14:1-3? That's not about some fake, "ethereal" place called "Heaven," y'know. It's talking about Yeshua`s return!

All those you listed and NOT ONE says anything about A PRE TRIBULATION coming.  Did I leave out those words?  Sorry if I did.  MOST CERTAINLY EVERYONE KNOWS CHRIST IS RETURNING, and they all know it from the very verses quoted.  

JUST NOT BEFORE HE RETURNS AS LORD OF LORD AND KING OF KINGS.  

HOPEFULLY THIS HAS CLEARED IT UP FOR YOU.  

ONCE AGAIN SORRY FOR THE MISUNDERSTANDING.  

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, the PROPHECY continues on, but Yeshua` STOPPED after the words "the year for accepting the LORD!" Why? Because the Day of Vengeance occurs WHEN THE LORD RETURNS, not while He was here the first time!

100% AGREED,  

Which was the point I was making

CHRIST RETURNS FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE

not a second before,   

ONCE AGAIN I AM SORRY FOR THE MISUNDERSTANDING.

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Which is a Kingdom that will come with the Messiah WHEN HE RETURNS!

AGAIN, 100% AGREED, hence no more flesh and blood.  

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Because the wedding has NOT already taken place in some abstract "Heaven" by Revelation 19! It happens HERE ON THIS EARTH AFTER HE RETURNS!!!

Yeshua` said,

Matthew 26:29 (KJV)

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Yet, wine in an integral part of a Jewish wedding! (Notice what is said about the wine in the marriage at Cana in John 2.)

In the TANAKH, we read,

Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Micah 4:1-2 (KJV)

1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2 And many nations shall come, and say,

"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths!":

for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:1-5 (KJV)

1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say,

"Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths!":

for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

And, this was PROPHESIED of Yeshua` just before His conception!

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Furthermore, Yeshua` said in the Olivet Discourse,

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Where does this occur? In Jerusalem!

Psalm 48:1-2 (KJV)

1 {A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah.}

Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.

2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Zion is the mountain range upon which Jerusalem sits!

Yeshua` understood this because He quoted from this passage in the beatitudes:

Matthew 5:33-35 (KJV)

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

And, please remember that the Greek word "ouranos" means the "SKY!" So often, the word is said to be about some ethereal place, but the "third heaven" mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is the "third SKY" over TIME. It's not about "third" in the sense of "First heaven, of clouds; second, of stars; third, God's abode," as written in the center margin of page 1238 in the old Scofield Reference Edition of the KJV. It's in the sense of how Peter said it:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV) (Watch the highlighted phrases.)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation!" 

5 For this they WILLINGLY are ignorant of, that by the word of God
the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

(This is the FIRST "heavens" that occurred BEFORE the Flood, which happened in Noach's 600th year.)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

(This is the SECOND "heavens" that is occurring SINCE the Flood and will continue until "the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men" which is the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.)

8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

(THIS is the THIRD "heavens" that we look forward to, mentioned also in Revelation 21 and 22.)

I truly hope this helps you in these matters.

 

Thank you.  Nicely put forth.  Immediately took me to 


Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.

Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Proverbs 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Proverbs 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Proverbs 8:26 While as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there: when He set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Proverbs 8:28 When He established the clouds above: when He strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Proverbs 8:29 When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment: when He appointed the foundations of the earth:

Proverbs 8:30 Then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him;


Proverbs 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


Proverbs 8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

Proverbs 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

Proverbs 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

Proverbs 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.


And of course Job 38  and all the rest  


 

[R. Hartono]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Because the wedding has NOT already taken place in some abstract "Heaven" by Revelation 19! It happens HERE ON THIS EARTH AFTER HE RETURNS!!!

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

 

Yeah i know you have told me b4 abt that, so we'll just wait and see.

verse 29 speaks abt Jesus drink the wine at the wedding in heaven.

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Thank you.  Nicely put forth.  Immediately took me to 


Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.

Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Proverbs 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Proverbs 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Proverbs 8:26 While as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there: when He set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Proverbs 8:28 When He established the clouds above: when He strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Proverbs 8:29 When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment: when He appointed the foundations of the earth:

Proverbs 8:30 Then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him;


Proverbs 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


Proverbs 8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

Proverbs 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

Proverbs 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

Proverbs 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Shalom, DeighAnn, and Merry Christmas!

That's fine but notice that Proverbs 8 ...

(1) is talking about WISDOM being with God from the beginning, and ...

(2) includes things from both the ORIGINAL Creation of Genesis 1 and 2, and also the RE-CREATION after the Flood.

The way one can tell this is true is that there were NO clouds before the Flood and the waves were NOT stayed yet in the original Creation. Thus, the division is found in verses 26 and 27. Notice that before this division, Wisdom was "brought forth"; after the division, Wisdom was "already there." 

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And of course Job 38  and all the rest  

Same thing with this passage. This is NOT talking about the original Creation; it's talking about the RE-CREATION in the year after the rains of the Flood.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

All those you listed and NOT ONE says anything about A PRE TRIBULATION coming.  Did I leave out those words?  Sorry if I did.  MOST CERTAINLY EVERYONE KNOWS CHRIST IS RETURNING, and they all know it from the very verses quoted.  

Shalom, DeighAnn, and again, Merry Christmas!

Well, I'm not one who believes in a pre-tribulational rapture; so, we're good. While there is a "rapture" shown in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, I don't believe those resurrected and transformed and those who are just transformed go to "Heaven."

I believe that it is a GATHERING of Yeshua`s saints from around the earth, and the messengers take them to Israel, since that is where Yeshua` is going.

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

JUST NOT BEFORE HE RETURNS AS LORD OF LORD AND KING OF KINGS.  

Yes, but you should understand that it will take time for Yeshua` to become "King of Kings and Lord of Lords." See, it will take time to subdue His enemies. Those who initially come against Israel shall be destroyed or subdued by the Messiah when He comes to fight for them. But, after He is accepted as Judah's King and Israel's King, He shall set up His sheep/goats war tribunal and judge among those who participated in the war which He wins. Just like the NATO nations put sanctions on Germany after WWII, He shall put sanctions on those nations who came against His Israel and Him. Those who fought WITH Israel, He shall adopt as tributary nations to His Kingdom.

For Yeshua` to be King of Kings, He must first have kings who were serve under Him as THEIR King. For Yeshua` to be Lord of Lords, He must first have masters under Him as THEIR Master. The term "Lord of Lords" means an OVERLORD, and the term "King of Kings" means a World EMPEROR! The Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar was such a "King of Kings" as we see from Daniel 2:37 and Ezekiel 26:7. We also see that the Persian King Artaxerxes II was also such a "King of Kings" in Ezra 7:12. It doesn't mean that they were kings over the whole earth, just over their own known world at the time.

Knowing that the Millennium is covered within the passage of 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, we see that Yeshua` shall also be at it for the whole Millennium:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1)afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(These are THREE different Resurrections.)

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet.

(But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he [God] is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

And, if we compare this to Revelation, we read,

Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:14 corresponds to 1 Corinthians 15:26. They are both talking about the END of Death!

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

HOPEFULLY THIS HAS CLEARED IT UP FOR YOU.  

ONCE AGAIN SORRY FOR THE MISUNDERSTANDING.  

 

100% AGREED,  

Which was the point I was making

CHRIST RETURNS FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE

not a second before,   

ONCE AGAIN I AM SORRY FOR THE MISUNDERSTANDING.

 

AGAIN, 100% AGREED, hence no more flesh and blood.  

I'm good with everything you said, UNTIL you said, "hence no more flesh and blood."

That's an error in understanding the last few verses of 1 Corinthians 15:

While it is true that Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's also true that Yeshua` said,

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat (food)?"

f42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

It's not the "end of flesh and blood" when Yeshua` returns; however, for those who are resurrected at Yeshua` return, THEY will be resurrected to live as immortal "flesh and bones" bodies that will reign with Him on the earth for the 1,000 years of what is called the "Millennium."

[DeighAnn]

On 12/25/2020 at 8:56 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn, and again, Merry Christmas!

Well, I'm not one who believes in a pre-tribulational rapture; so, we're good. While there is a "rapture" shown in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, I don't believe those resurrected and transformed and those who are just transformed go to "Heaven."

I believe that it is a GATHERING of Yeshua`s saints from around the earth, and the messengers take them to Israel, since that is where Yeshua` is going.

Yes, but you should understand that it will take time for Yeshua` to become "King of Kings and Lord of Lords." See, it will take time to subdue His enemies. Those who initially come against Israel shall be destroyed or subdued by the Messiah when He comes to fight for them. But, after He is accepted as Judah's King and Israel's King, He shall set up His sheep/goats war tribunal and judge among those who participated in the war which He wins. Just like the NATO nations put sanctions on Germany after WWII, He shall put sanctions on those nations who came against His Israel and Him. Those who fought WITH Israel, He shall adopt as tributary nations to His Kingdom.

For Yeshua` to be King of Kings, He must first have kings who were serve under Him as THEIR King. For Yeshua` to be Lord of Lords, He must first have masters under Him as THEIR Master. The term "Lord of Lords" means an OVERLORD, and the term "King of Kings" means a World EMPEROR! The Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar was such a "King of Kings" as we see from Daniel 2:37 and Ezekiel 26:7. We also see that the Persian King Artaxerxes II was also such a "King of Kings" in Ezra 7:12. It doesn't mean that they were kings over the whole earth, just over their own known world at the time.

Knowing that the Millennium is covered within the passage of 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, we see that Yeshua` shall also be at it for the whole Millennium:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1)afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(These are THREE different Resurrections.)

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet.

(But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he [God] is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

And, if we compare this to Revelation, we read,

Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:14 corresponds to 1 Corinthians 15:26. They are both talking about the END of Death!

I'm good with everything you said, UNTIL you said, "hence no more flesh and blood."

That's an error in understanding the last few verses of 1 Corinthians 15:

While it is true that Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's also true that Yeshua` said,

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat (food)?"

f42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

It's not the "end of flesh and blood" when Yeshua` returns; however, for those who are resurrected at Yeshua` return, THEY will be resurrected to live as immortal "flesh and bones" bodies that will reign with Him on the earth for the 1,000 years of what is called the "Millennium."

We somewhat differ in our understanding here

God says 

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself.

Revelation 19:13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Revelation 19:16 And He hath on his vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.



As I read and understand it, HE is RETURNING as King of kings and Lord of Lords.  

HE already is Lord of lords as

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

Hebrews 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God;

abideth a priest continually.




Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,


and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

There will be NO ONE come against the Lord during the Lords Day.  And those who think they might not 



 

Zechariah 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Zechariah 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Zechariah 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.


I do not read any of this to mean that HE "shall become".  He is returning as Lord and King and all knees shall bow (not all stay that way though).  A process for the people to come to acceptance but what the people do or don't do doesn't have anything to do with HIS STATION at this time.  



When hailstones, like 180 talents? or  something like that fall,  in Gods Wrath, just a few minutes will end all that,  I believe.  Would need to go back on this too.  If need be, once again, no problem.  Love to be proven right, love to be proven wrong more as it keeps me from teaching falsely....and I believe that every idle word will be accounted for and so when I find I have given false info, gives me time to give truth to cover that multitude of sins.  


 

Zechariah 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.



On there being any  "flesh and blood" once Christ returns, we will just have to see.  I just believe that when God says 

dead raised "incorruptible"  alive and remaining changed, that that 
covers EVERYONE dead and alive on the last day.  Doesn't really change anything.  I just remember that GOD doesn't like things to be "mixed".  

There will be no marriage, so flesh not needed for that.  Trees will give the meat etc and I myself just can't reconcile how it would be "JUST" for some to have spiritual bodies and others not.  That is how "excuses" could be brought up on judgment day.  No God doesn't even like mixed fabrics.  He isn't going to have flesh men and woman running around with celestial ones.  ALL of those from creation on down in  spiritual bodies and only those "unlucky" to be in the last generation in the flesh.  I see no purpose, nothing good and everything bad.  FLESH is of "this" world.  God repented of putting us in the flesh.  I think He can't wait to get rid of it.  But like I said, just my opinion at this point.  Would be willing, if necessary, to go get scripture to make a case for it.  Would end up learning more truth either way and I am good with that.  



flesh and BONES VS flesh and BLOOD



Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[DeighAnn]

On 12/25/2020 at 7:48 AM, Retrobyter said:

(2) includes things from both the ORIGINAL Creation of Genesis 1 and 2, and also the RE-CREATION after the Flood.

What RE-CREATION after the Flood?

[R. Hartono]

On 12/24/2020 at 8:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

NOW WHAT HE NEVER SPOKE TO?  NEVER, NOT A WORD, OF "PRE TRIB RAP".

 

 

The foolish virgins screamed because they are left behind and they knew the horror of tribulation is coming to the whole world "Lord, Lord, open to us. But He answered and said, Truly I say to you, I know you not"

Matt 25:10 But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And THE DOOR WAS SHUT. (The door was shut for the wedding Feast of the Lamb).

Isaiah 26:20 Go, My people, enter your rooms and SHUT THE DOOR behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until His wrath has passed by. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.