The Great Tribulation is no purgatory for the church / Foolish virgins scream......(scary stuff)

[R. Hartono]

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

And that called "great tribulation". It lasts up to the time Jesus returns. A post trib rapture.

Jesus returns as post trib rapture ? Not at all, He returns with His army of raptured saints in Rev 19 at the end of GT to Armageddon battle.

Edited December 19, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Omegaman 3.0]

24 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Jesus returns as post trib rapture ? Not at all, He returns with His army of raptured saints in Rev 19 at the end of GT to Armageddon battle.

I hate to keep harping on this point, but saying what will happen is not the same as showing WHEN it will happen, in relation to the Great Tribulation. Where in Rev 19 does it mention a pre-trib rapture? Find it, and show it to us here, and I will respond when you do, but you do know that you won't find it before the end of the millennium, right? Show us any passage to that effect. So far, you haven't done so (not that I really expect you to).

Part of the problem I think, is that some people use Revelation as the source of their theory. If not only does not prove pre-trib, but it is easy to misapply, since it is not in chronological order, and it is written in apocalyptic language ad visions. 

It is good to read Revelation, but understand it in a way, that harmonizes with the clear and more thorough texts about eschatology and the sequence of events. 

[Diaste]

35 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Jesus returns as post trib rapture ? Not at all, He returns with His army of raptured saints in Rev 19 at the end of GT to Armageddon battle.

Not 'saints'; strateuma.  The saints, elect, or church is never called strateuma.

Jesus returns with armies, not the raptured believers.

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I hate to keep harping on this point, but saying what will happen is not the same as showing WHEN it will happen, in relation to the Great Tribulation. Where in Rev 19 does it mention a pre-trib rapture? Find it, and show it to us here, and I will respond when you do, but you do know that you won't find it before the end of the millennium, right? Show us any passage to that effect. So far, you haven't done so (not that I really expect you to).

Part of the problem I think, is that some people use Revelation as the source of their theory. If not only does not prove pre-trib, but it is easy to misapply, since it is not in chronological order, and it is written in apocalyptic language ad visions. 

It is good to read Revelation, but understand it in a way, that harmonizes with the clear and more thorough texts about eschatology and the sequence of events. 

 

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not 'saints'; strateuma.  The saints, elect, or church is never called strateuma.

Jesus returns with armies, not the raptured believers.

Enoch said Lord will come with thousand and thousands of His saints. Jude 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones, This is about Rev 19:¹⁴ The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. This is Jesus with saints going to Armageddon battle to battle and retake the world.

Those army of Jesus were the gathered/raptured wise virgins, while the foolish virgins already left n scream "Lord Loord take us in" but the door of the wedding is closed already n the whole world is given to the frankenstein bridegroom. 

Isaiah 26:20 Go, My people, enter your rooms and SHUT THE DOOR behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until His wrath has passed by. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Matt 25:10 But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And THE DOOR WAS SHUT.

THE DOOR WAS SHUT for the wedding as the GT is not a time of purgatory for the wise virgins faithful with the OIL.

Without the Oil there will be darkness n unGodly desires of flesh though the foolish virgins may look like common faithful christians, they just hv no Holy Spirit annointment !

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Jesus returns as post trib rapture ? Not at all, He returns with His army of raptured saints in Rev 19 at the end of GT to Armageddon battle.

Actually, Rev. 19 is when He comes for His bride. His bride is given her white attire only at this time. And the blessedness of coming to the marriage supper. The raptured people are seen in the sky to meet Him in the air (v.1) 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

If you know 2 = 2 = 4 does one have to spell that out everytime someone says 2 plus 2 ? I mean, do you really need someone to say, HOLD UP, that = 4 !!

The math ONLY ADDS UP if there is a Pre Trib Rapture, we don't need it told unto us, we should be able to add up 2 + 2 ourselves. Especially when Paul basically says thus, I TELL YOU A MYSTERY (Secret, meaning Jesus/God never adds 2 + 2 up for you, you have to do it yourselves. Only Paul adds it up a few times. So, the book of Revelation doesn't, the Gospels dont, the Old Testament doesn't, but alas, I can ADD 2 +2 myself. I understand that if the Church comes back with Jesus while the Beast is still on earth that mandates a Pre Trib Rapture, especially when we see the Church IN HEAVEN in Rev. 5:9 BEFORE the Seals are opened. Especially since we are described over ad over by Jesus as a Bride, and Judean Brides always spent 7 days in the Bridal Chambers, AND it was always in the fathers house.

Not saying we don't end up in heaven or that we don't go there. I'm saying scripture doesn't say so. The only time I know of in all of holy writ where saints are pictured in heaven is AFTER GT. No other time,

You say 24 elders is the church. 

This:

"After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands."

is the church and it is only pictured in heaven because....

"These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;"

This is the church, not 24 elders.

 

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

We were promised we will never see the Wrath, I mean 2 +2 = 4. 

Of course it does, read Rev. 14:14, we ae Harvested by Jesus from a Cloud. Not on the earth, he Harvests thee 144,000(5 Million Jews AND the Wicked Tares on earth in Rev. 14, but the Church, in a FLASHBACK is Harvested from upon a Cloud Rev. 5:9 tells us the Church is in Heaven  BEFORE the Seals are opened, SECRETLY, you have to know this Brother. 

Nope. never am I going to think 24 elders is the church when Rev 7:9-17 is the clearest picture of the glory and reward of those gathered from the earth.

No details of a large group in Rev 5 and a boatload of facts in Rev 7.

No timing in 1 Thess 4 or 5, No timing in 1 Cor 15. 

Timing in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2. No pretrib rapture.

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

We come back from Heaven on White Horses, while the Beast is still in power. That can only mean one thing, 2 + 2 = 4.

Strateuma is not the saints. Jude says 'holy ones'. Zero proof the saints make up the armies of Rev 19.

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

No, YOU see it as TWO resurrections, God is equating them in like manner. Two halves of football, not four quarters. You can insist, but there are four quarters, but God is simply identifying two halves. 

Its the same thing here, God is speaking about TWO THINGS, the Resurrection of those in Christ AND the Resurrection of those who rejected Jesus' free Salvation. God does not care about TIME, that is you mandating the TIME changes the number, it doesn't, because God is identifying TWO THNGS, those IN Christ and those NO IN Christ. 

Right. There's a reason why is called the 1st half and the 2nd half. Get it? TWO halves. Your analogy only supports an extra resurrection making for 3.

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Those in Christ and those living, for all intense purposes are raised at the exact same time, the Dead are Raised and then in a TWINKLE of an Eye we are CHANGED from flesh men, to Spirit men, because we shed our bodies, WE DIE. Then we go to be with the Lord, and thus we will always be in the Presence of God via is Spirit ALWAYS DWELLING in us. We will not be up under Jesus 24/7Infinity. 

Agreed. But neither 1 Thess 4, or 1 Thess 5, or 1 Cor 15 provides any timing. It's made up by pretrib.

 

[R. Hartono]

57 minutes ago, SONshine said:

I heartily agree.  The sequence of the end-time events have already been told to us in the Word of God.  We’ve got to keep these events in the right order to avoid confusion.

The sequence is abt the wise virgins taken to the Feast of the Lamb n then the foolish virgins scream........its abt incomparable horror coming to the world who were left behind.

Edited December 20, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

11 hours ago, Uriah said:

Actually, Rev. 19 is when He comes for His bride. His bride is given her white attire only at this time. And the blessedness of coming to the marriage supper. The raptured people are seen in the sky to meet Him in the air (v.1) 

Read again, the wedding has already taken place in Rev 19 be4 Jesus return with saints to Armageddon battle.

[Uriah]

11 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Read again, the wedding has already taken place in Rev 19 be4 Jesus return with saints to Armageddon battle.

Done so, many times. It says:

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Ahh, NOW she is ready! NOW is the marriage.

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

I don't think she was running around through the clouds naked either.

And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God

Apparently no marriage supper up until this time. One must be married FIRST.

These statements are unmistakable. They aren't written as some "word from our sponsor" statements. Jesus won't make His bride fight His battles for him either.

It is the armies of heaven accompanying Him-angels.

[R. Hartono]

14 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Done so, many times. It says:

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Ahh, NOW she is ready! NOW is the marriage.

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

It is the armies of heaven accompanying Him-angels.

Angels led by Mikhail hv their own battle against bad angels in heaven for the cleansing of heaven.

Its true angels vs bad angels

And true man led by Jesus vs antichrist with the world army at Armageddon to decide which man rule the world.

Angels dont fight for this earth as this earth was not created for them. They dont live on earth during Christ Millennium either.

And there was never any angels riding horses appeared to saints in history unless they are cowboy angels like Bonanza.

Edited December 21, 2020 by R. Hartono