Why good men go to hell?

[Frits]

10 hours ago, David1701 said:

Oh boy!

Matt. 19:16,17 (EMTV)

16 And behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
  17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

The rich young ruler was making the same kind of mistake that you are: he called Jesus "good", without knowing that Jesus is God.  Jesus then corrected him, by telling him that ONLY God is good.

David,

The rich young man didn't know that the Lord Jesus is God, I do.  In any case, the rich young man showed no faith that the Lord Jesus is God, I do.
But if the Lord Jesus calls Himself "the Son of man," I may quote His words.
God the Father is only good, the Lord Jesus Christ is only good, the holy angels of God are good, and the people (plural) the Lord Jesus himself mentions in Mt.5:45 are good.

'for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good' 

Who are all those 'good' people? I don't know them personally, but I've given you some names of people who have received a testimony from God about their goodness.
If that's not enough, it stops. I cannot convince you, only the Lord our God Jesus Christ can.

God bless you bro.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

Then, given the few recent posts, you know the idea we can't or should "gap-fill" warrants qualification because we do and should fill in some gaps where scripture is not explicit because the power of scripture is greater in principle than in mere letter, but great care should be used so as not to make scripture say things it cannot possible mean or in any way that creates contradictions between passages. 

Yes. Kind of. I'm saying this;

"4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God; 6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

Which we agree on unless I misunderstand. 

As to the above verse then behaviors should fall under the guiding star of "Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself." as this is of the Spirit. So then I don't see the need for gap filling in that area as all our conduct can be judged by love for God and our neighbor. 

To paraphrase Paul; we have liberty but we should also consider what that liberty does in the mind of others and take care not to abuse others by the freedom of liberty. In the whole of the NT regarding personal conduct there is no gap filling required.

But, where scripture is silent we should be as well. No gap filling allowed as truth. I have no issue with speculation as long as it's noted. We don't know God's mind so making assumptions is a slippery slope. It's where we get cults and abuse and wars.

Recreational drug use would fall under two principles: obeying the laws of man and self control; both well established in the NT. I don't find that to be gap filling, it's more simple deduction and logic.

Did God prohibit it? Is it illegal? Is it controlling my life? Am I loving God? Am I loving my neighbor? 

Gap filling to me is supplying what is not there. Maybe you mean inference?

 

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

I would therefore adjust that last sentence I quoted to read, "The entire atheist community has the knowledge of God and Christ, they deny it's existence." They don't just deny God's existence; they deny the existence of any evidence indicating otherwise. 

Quite right. I had some fascinating, albeit short, debates on this. I think they sincerely want evidence but can never come up with what evidence would suffice short of divine visitation. 

We can call it what we want but I think it best rendered as rebellion. They know; they are afraid. They lack understanding, therefore they hate. Blinded by lust and consumed with conceit they are forced to deny. 

So it appears to me in talking with them it's the saving power of Christ that's most offensive and the root of the problem. If they can deny God's existence, Jesus doesn't exist either.

I know I'm way off the topic here but something should be mentioned. In my conversations I learned something about that group. They feel the 'Christian' message of, "Accept Jesus or be condemned to hell." is a threat. I didn't understand at first.

It's true though. Put that way it is a threat. Part of the reason for the atheist resistance is the manner of witnessing. We should be careful to present the message properly. 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

I hope you won't mind if I read what is actually factually stated, accept what is stated, and believe it as stated. I also hope you won't mind if I ignore all the many possible think people might make that verse say at the expense of what it actually states, no matter how veracious those additions may be. 

What the text states is what it states and what it states is that God looked at all that he'd made and it was very good. Adam was a thing God made. Therefore Adam was good. 

 

All the rest of that stuff you've so wonderfully added to the discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. No one is disputing God as the Creator or the sole creator. No one is disputing whether or how much the creation is made according to how He wanted to create it. No one is remotely posting about God as an inspector - of His own creation or anything else. And there's absolutely no mention of a "blueprint."

The other poster and I were discussing whether or not anyone else in the Bible is ever called "good." I say no; he says yes. If you have scripture either way then do please post it. Otherwise you are posting error, mistakes, and interfering.  (I know that's not what you meant )

 

God declared everything He'd made good.
Adam was made by God.
Therefore Adam was good, declared so by God Himself to Moses when He inspired the Pentateuch.

 

No one since then has been called good. They've been called many wonderful things, but never good. Thousands of years later Jesus drew attention to this reality when he stated no one is good but the Father. 

 

 

.

I cannot see you as an agnostic of the plan and the proposed of God. 

 There are believers who cannot see the big picture but you can see it, and I can say that with confidence without asking you, from your previous postings. 

You know that before God made man he had the whole picture in his mind.

God knew that Adam was created to live in the Garden till the appointed time.  

We can see that even in Genesis 1:28 

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 

In Genesis 1:28 God is blessing them to live on earth, before it happens. 

God made man "good" according to his proposed and not according to your definition. 

Your definition it lucks clarity, it is vague, and it has not made the connection to Jesus  Christ proposed. To the message Jesus wanted to convey to those people who were still living under the Jurisdiction of the old Covenant.  And they were not able to comprehend or it was hidden from them to understand what Jesus said: "that only God is good".

Certainly Jesus Christ did not want the people to think that he is not "Good himself ". 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[David1701]

10 hours ago, Frits said:

David,

The rich young man didn't know that the Lord Jesus is God, I do.  In any case, the rich young man showed no faith that the Lord Jesus is God, I do.
But if the Lord Jesus calls Himself "the Son of man," I may quote His words.
God the Father is only good, the Lord Jesus Christ is only good, the holy angels of God are good, and the people (plural) the Lord Jesus himself mentions in Mt.5:45 are good.

'for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good' 

Who are all those 'good' people? I don't know them personally, but I've given you some names of people who have received a testimony from God about their goodness.
If that's not enough, it stops. I cannot convince you, only the Lord our God Jesus Christ can.

God bless you bro.

I already told you that it's not about people being relatively "good", when compared with each other, which is what you are talking about. 

You are also assuming that the inherent goodness of God is somehow equivalent to the relative goodness of fallen men, when compared with each other.  Just because the word "good" is used does not mean that it is used the same way, no matter what the context!

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is not a deliberate attempt to pull the wool over people's eyes.  It certainly has not deceived me...

[Guest]

Firstly, there are no good men. Secondly, how can anyone know they go to hell? 

[Frits]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

I already told you that it's not about people being relatively "good", when compared with each other, which is what you are talking about. 

You are also assuming that the inherent goodness of God is somehow equivalent to the relative goodness of fallen men, when compared with each other.  Just because the word "good" is used does not mean that it is used the same way, no matter what the context!

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is not a deliberate attempt to pull the wool over people's eyes.  It certainly has not deceived me...

David,

There are bad people on the earth and there are good people on the earth. That's not subject to putting things into perspective, because the Lord Jesus clearly mentions the existence of these people:

'for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good' 

This statement of the Lord Jesus Himself makes that a fact!  There are good people and bad people.  Nothing more and nothing less.

Your thought about 'relatively' good has misled you. That is how the rich young man began. He placed Master Jesus in line with other Jewish teachers and scholars. In comparison he considered the Lord Jesus "good", and rightly so. But it was relative thought of him and because of that he missed the most important thing, namely that he must accept the Lord Jesus as God!
So the comment of the Lord Jesus is actually not about good, better, or best at all, but "rich boy" recognize and now believe that I am God, then I can save you!
Anything that God the Father calls good is good because He is God, whether you believe His word or not.  Everything the Lord Jesus calls good is good because He is God, whether you believe His word or not.  But if you do believe the Lord Jesus, you'll have to accept His words that God 'maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good'.
So the fact of the utterance of God Himself is that there are bad people and there are good people.

I have mentioned some names of good people such as Enoch, Abraham, Moses and Elijah.
Smearing their names and questioning their goodness seems to me somehow blasphemous! Please do not participate.

As always, God bless.

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Just because you post it does not make it so. From the perspective of God, as articulated in His word, there are no good people. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. There is no one who seeks Him, not even one. There are those in whom to varying degrees God finds pleasure and they some degree of His approval, some even to the point of being His friend, but none of them are good people. Abraham was a liar and an adulterer. Moses a murderer and a man who took credit for God's work and it so offended God that he was prohibited from entering the promised land. That's not a good person. David was a serial adulterer and serial murderer who so offended God on one occasion that God sent the angel of death to kill David and relented only by grace, not any goodness of David's. The Judges, with the possible exception of Deborah, were deeply flawed people. The same is true of the prophets. ALL of them. James and John were competitive and aggressive, wanting to rule with Jesus and call down thunder on those they judged. Peter was an impulsive man who even after being filled powerfully by the Holy Spirit practiced hypocrisy and had to be corrected by others. 

There are only sinners on the earth. 

Sinners are not good. 

There are sinful people who do only bad things, and there are sinful people who occasionally do good. And there are sinful people who have surrendered to Christ and been washed clean but they still sin and sin is not good. 

 

You were asked a single simple question and have conflagrated the matter in subterfuge to avoid the facts of scripture. When the moment you were asked the question you should have examined your answers in light of the question and the posters asking the question (because you knew we were gonna examine te answer for the word "good") and when realizing there are no verses specifically labeling anyone "good," you should have said as much. 

"My regrets guys, but you're correct! All I can find is verses where God commends sinners with other adjectives but never the word 'good'." 

Then instead of sowing division and criticism, unity would have been sown commendation would have been extended.

There are no good people on earth. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and if you say, "Yeah, but there are good sinners," I am going to ask you to support that view... with scripture. So think before you post. Start with why you feel the need to say, "Yeah but..." rather than just affirm scripture. 

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the premise of a "good sinner" is self-contradictory.

Nicodemus approached Jesus in a different way, he acknowledged that Jesus is fromGod, and everything he does God is with him.

John 3:2

 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 

In the other even the "wealthy man after he sow the miracles of Jesus or what he heard about him, he address Jesus in a different way.

First he did not acknowledge that he is from God and that God is with him , as to glorify God for the miracles that Jesus did, but as he was used to being glorified by the people he was helping, he so himself as a good person and he was recognized by the community as a good person.

So he did the same with Jesus; "saying to himself that he met a good person, he so a good person in Jesus by what he was doing.

He notice that Jesus Christ did not asked for money or to be prayed for the healings to the people.  

He understood by comparison that the people in times past and in their times, even in the instructions in the law they had to bring a gift to the Temple or to the prophet then they can make their petition to the Lord.

This man sow the compation Jesus had for the people, doing everything without discrimination, healing the unlovable and everyone who would come to him.

This is why Jesus Christ told him about God, he was telling him and to everyone present that what he does is the Goodness of God to the people, working through him.

Nicodemus as a teacher of the Law he understood that and correctly address Jesus  Christ, but this man sow the compassion in Jesus but he failed to see God working in Jesus Christ. 

He kind of separated Jesus from God and included him in the group of the past prophets, like Elisha. Who were visited in their place by anyone who needed their help.

Jesus was going to people wherever they were and healed their sick because that was the will of God , God was with him and was guiding him.

Nicodemus sow Jesus Christ as the Messiah of God.

But this man sow Jesus healing the sick out of his goodness, he could not see beyond that that he was the Messiah from God.

That the miracles he did gave the witness that he was the Messiah the Christ they had been waiting for, the one Moses had said that God will sent. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Frits]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

There are only sinners on the earth. 

Sinners are not good.

Josheb,

You have now wrongly qualified a number of men of God being no good, 'sinners', including Abraham, Moses and the apostle Peter.
But you haven't said anything about the Lord Jesus yet. He also was on earth as a human being, and of Him God the Father said:

Mat.3:17 KJV
'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.'

Regarding Jesus God also used the word 'pleased', so the man Jesus Christ was not 'good' according to you?

Then you write these two sentences:

"There are only sinners on the earth."

"Sinners are not good."

The answer to the second sentence is short; indeed, sinners are not good.

But as for your first sentence, what do you think of the people who have received the Lord Jesus as the Christ of God and received the remission of their sins through faith and prayer in Him?
Aren't these people good too? Such people have walked the earth in great numbers for centuries. Peter was once among them.
There have always been good people on the earth during the Old Testament, including Abraham.

If Abraham were not good according to God's criterion as you say, then after his death he would also have been under torment in Hades, with the rich man!

But now Abraham was in the safe presence of the good God, in the place where Lazarus was also carried.
(Lk.16)
And Moses also was a good man, and he also came into the Promised Land. When the Lord Jesus was glorified on a mountain in the Promised Land, there, among others, was Moses to speak with Him. No small thing for a person, who you say is a 'sinner' and therefore bad!
Brother, you err.

Hence I wish you all the more God's blessing.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Frits said:

Josheb,

You have now wrongly qualified a number of men of God being no good, 'sinners', including Abraham, Moses and the apostle Peter.
But you haven't said anything about the Lord Jesus yet. He also was on earth as a human being, and of Him God the Father said:

Mat.3:17 KJV
'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.'

Regarding Jesus God also used the word 'pleased', so the man Jesus Christ was not 'good' according to you?

Then you write these two sentences:

"There are only sinners on the earth."

"Sinners are not good."

The answer to the second sentence is short; indeed, sinners are not good.

But as for your first sentence, what do you think of the people who have received the Lord Jesus as the Christ of God and received the remission of their sins through faith and prayer in Him?
Aren't these people good too? Such people have walked the earth in great numbers for centuries. Peter was once among them.
There have always been good people on the earth during the Old Testament, including Abraham.

If Abraham were not good according to God's criterion as you say, then after his death he would also have been under torment in Hades, with the rich man!

But now Abraham was in the safe presence of the good God, in the place where Lazarus was also carried.
(Lk.16)
And Moses also was a good man, and he also came into the Promised Land. When the Lord Jesus was glorified on a mountain in the Promised Land, there, among others, was Moses to speak with Him. No small thing for a person, who you say is a 'sinner' and therefore bad!
Brother, you err.

Hence I wish you all the more God's blessing.

The issues 

raised in this post need to be discussed. 

There are a lot fundamental errors, the first one and this is a huge one, and it is not singling out you, as your comments in this issue at hand is echoed by a following for that reason one may find a lot of sympathisers who hold to the same view and as leaders in various groups have cemented their error by prosecuting those who do not give them blind royalty in this matter.  

I had consider to post scriptures that proves the elledge error. 

But I thought that it is perhaps another way to follow. 

You made comments about Abraham without giving the grounds that guided you to make those comments. 

Please supply the grounds that support your position about Abraham. 

In asking this I keep in mind that you may come across the scriptures that shed light in this matter, and cause you to revisit your comments. 

Your comments in this matter:

"There have always been good people on the earth during the Old Testament, including Abraham.

If Abraham were not good according to God's criterion as you say, then after his death he would also have been under torment in Hades, with the rich man!

But now Abraham was in the safe presence of the good God, in the place where Lazarus was also carried." 

?????

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Your closest friendnt