Why good men go to hell?

[David1701]

18 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

Frits in his post above is giving an account millions of people after Penticost are saved.

Because they converted to the Lord jesus and accepted him as God and Savior. 

And he states emphatically: 

That's why I too. am saved.

And he is praising the Lord Jesus.  

This is more than enough, I accept that he is Saved, he does not need to do anything else. 

What we discuss are not Salvation issues.  

We can discuss them, without making them Salvation issues, I suppose so. 

The statement "converted to Jesus", it must include who believed that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins. 

Because that's how anyone is converted to Jesus Christ because he believes that Jesus died on the Cross to pay for our sins, our sins were upon him, that's how he can forgive us, because he pay the price for our sins, he was punished for our sins. 

You omitted the vital part of Frits' post, to which my post was a response.  Here it is.

"Yes I believe that people who are good, are saved by God."

That is what Frits posted and which is contrary to Christianity.

 

[David1701]

18 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

Frits in his post above is giving an account millions of people after Penticost are saved.

Because they converted to the Lord jesus and accepted him as God and Savior. 

And he states emphatically: 

That's why I too. am saved.

And he is praising the Lord Jesus.  

This is more than enough, I accept that he is Saved, he does not need to do anything else. 

What we discuss are not Salvation issues.  

We can discuss them, without making them Salvation issues, I suppose so. 

The statement "converted to Jesus", it must include who believed that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins. 

Because that's how anyone is converted to Jesus Christ because he believes that Jesus died on the Cross to pay for our sins, our sins were upon him, that's how he can forgive us, because he pay the price for our sins, he was punished for our sins. 

Anyone who thinks that he is saved because he is good, is very badly mistaken.  Christ Jesus came to save sinners.  He did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.  He showed his love for us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Sinners, by definition, are not inherently good.

[Starise]

1 minute ago, David1701 said:

Anyone who thinks that he is saved because he is good, is very badly mistaken.  Christ Jesus came to save sinners.  He did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.  He showed his love for us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Sinners, by definition, are not inherently good.

Yes. Not sure how this was misconstrued?

[David1701]

14 minutes ago, Starise said:

Yes. Not sure how this was misconstrued?

I don't know, but Frits seems to think that God saves people because they are good, which is beyond belief.

[Starise]

12 minutes ago, David1701 said:

I don't know, but Frits seems to think that God saves people because they are good, which is beyond belief.

Hmmmm. Should I potentially add to the complication or let well enough alone?

I fully agree with you. We are not good and God didn't save us based on "goodness"

This is a side thought to this reasoning, yet it doesn't disagree with your comment.

God thought humanity was redeemable or He would not have redeemed us. That idea infers value. Not goodness. Value to Him. Why did God see us as valuable? Because He loved us. Why did He love us? This is perhaps the bigger question. 

I won't make the jump to "good"in this context because someone will argue that since God redeemed us there must have been something good in us He liked. I will go so far as to say he seen something redeemable which would eventually be good.

<ducks and runs>

[Completed Israelite]

"Why men goto hell? Hell in actual biblical terms is called Gehenna. 

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

the reason men goto Hell is very simply bc they(above) just like death,, is a Enemy to Israel. ("Her offspring)

God almighty will destroy all of our Enemy's, even tho they are no threat to Him personally, He fights for His children. 

It's all about the Covenant brother.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Completed Israelite

[Frits]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

LOL!!! 

YOU have argued that by claiming God saves the good people! 

@Josheb LOL?  Me?  No, feel pitty.

You don't really think your premature conclusion is worth anything, do you?
The fact that you still don't understand, is probably because you use too much logic from philosophy books. Bad, and your own choice.
But you lack the insight that God gives.

While this theme is quite simple, I'll walk you through it step by step:

If the Lord Jesus justifies a person on the basis of faith, he/she becomes a righteous person, from that moment on.  The Lord Jesus looks upon the heart and the faith in Him, the prayer to Him, that He is God who saves the lost man, is sufficient for Him to make that man GOOD.  Remember, 'What God has cleansed, man should not consider unclean!' (Act 10:15) That converted man is righteous in the sight of God, and therefore good. That doesn't mean perfect, but that's not what it was about.
If God cleanses and justifies you or me, we are GOOD. That happened in the same way with the OT people, because God saw their faith (eg Abel, Enoch, Abraham and Moses), justified them and thus found them "good".  So good that Abraham was "in Paradise" in Hades.
(Oh vey, Josheb said: "There is no Hades!")
So there are no works or wages at all!  As a sinner you become GOOD, only through your faith in God.  From the New Testament that means, believe in our God and Lord Jesus Christ.
But then if you have accepted the Lord Jesus as Savior and Redeemer from your sins, then you are a righteous and good person.

The bad thing about your unhappy logic is that you don't have faith in this saving act of God!  You do not dare to say "Thank you, Sir" and openly acknowledge that you are good, because it has no place in your logic!  (The Greek philosophers probably don't allow that, but that's my guess.)
In your idea you always remain a sinner and there is no one who is good!
You deny God's work and have no faith that He actually cleanses the sinner, after which he is completely clean!
According to your statement there is no good man in the earth, including all born-again Christians!!
So you put aside the faith that the Lord Jesus noticed in these people. You have no respect for the Lord Jesus, for as to Him a simple prayer, 'Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom', is sufficient. This murderer was made a good person there, and the Lord Jesus gave him access to Paradise. He is God.
Hence, I could say that good people are saved by God.  
The Lord Jesus is Champion-make-people-good, as soon as He hears their prayer for His help.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.  (Act 2:21) Amen.

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

That is not all that he has posted on the matter. He also posted, 

"Anything that God the Father calls good is good because He is God, whether you believe His word or not.  Everything the Lord Jesus calls good is good because He is God, whether you believe His word or not.  But if you do believe the Lord Jesus, you'll have to accept His words that God 'maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good'. So the fact of the utterance of God Himself is that there are bad people and there are good people."

 

 

The entire argument is built upon the premise because God causes rai to fall on the good there must there be good people upon whom that rain falls. He then argues God had human friends whom He labeled with good adjectives, so because they were identified with good adjectives they themselves must have been good.  

 

"So there is a great gulf running through Hades! (v26) On the one hand, the unbelievers, the troublemakers, the deniers, the loveless, the sinners.  And on the other, the loving, the peaceable, the helpers, the merciful, the good people."

 

"Those who are good will inherit the Kingdom of God. These by the way are without exception all righteous people, like the people I mentioned you. (Mt.25: 34,37) "

 

 

Yes; he's conflating relative, human goodness with God's inherent goodness.

I wonder if there's a language problem here.

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

Hmmmm. Should I potentially add to the complication or let well enough alone?

I fully agree with you. We are not good and God didn't save us based on "goodness"

This is a side thought to this reasoning, yet it doesn't disagree with your comment.

God thought humanity was redeemable or He would not have redeemed us. That idea infers value. Not goodness. Value to Him. Why did God see us as valuable? Because He loved us. Why did He love us? This is perhaps the bigger question. 

I won't make the jump to "good"in this context because someone will argue that since God redeemed us there must have been something good in us He liked. I will go so far as to say he seen something redeemable which would eventually be good.

<ducks and runs>

There's no need to duck and run.

God sent his Son to save his people from their sins.  This means that we were redeemable, but only because Jesus became the substitute, to take our sins and punishments upon himself; and because God's righteousness could then be imputed to us, not because there was anything good in us.

God redeemed his chosen people, from Jews and Gentiles, not because of anything good in us, but in order to redeem some of thoroughly bad humanity, for His name's sake, to show his mercy and grace.

God also chose to pass over others, leaving them in the sin they desire, to show his justice and wrath.

Why did God set his saving love on his elect?  Because He chose to, for his own perfect purposes, not because of anything good in us, since there was nothing good in us.

[Completed Israelite]

And maybe we should clear up,.. no man will be in true Hell(Gehenna) until AFTER the 1000 years of peace on earth. Before then all souls, Rightoues and unrightoues, all goto the "Abode of the dead" or "netherworld" the word here is Sheol, this is what Yeshua(Jesus) spoke of in Luke, The rich man lifted his eyes up in Sheol, and afar off seen Abraham and Lazor. 

They was in the same facility, but separated by a great gulf, and neither side could cross over to each other. 

Why was the rich man in Torment then? most would ask. 

This ties back into Ecclisasties, "the wicked have madness in Thier heart in life, and even after they goto the dead" 

As everyone has heard the phrase "no rest for the wicked" and rest in peace....both are true. The Rightoues will have peace in death, and won't even taste it, it won't have any sting, a state of repose, and they will be resurrected into LIFE Eternal.  The wicked will have madness in Thier heart in death even, in the pit they will become "burried". 

They to will literally be brought back to life(resurrected) into judgement, after the 1000 years of peace(millienal Sabbath), and then they will Die Again! The 2nd death! And they will, along with all the rest of Israel's enemy's, (haSatan,death it's self, all those who are of the offspring of the serpent, and even Sheol it's self,) will all be thrown into Gehenna. 

Understanding Scripture from the Holy Tounge(Hebrew) is essential for truth in doctrine. All "translations" bow down to the Hebrew. 

People will ask about, Ecclisasties, the verse that says, "when you die the spirit returns to the One who gave it" and that's also 100% true.. But that's why you most know the difference from the spirit and the Soul.

Man IS A LIVING SOUL, and has a body, not vice versa. What made that soul Living was the SPIRIT of life which came from God. Also often translated as, "Breath, and wind" but Scripture confirms it self, later in Gen. You'll see b4 the flood, God said, He was doing away with everything "in which was the SPIRIT of Life" understand from plants, animals, and anything that is Alive, has His spirit of life within it, it's what makes things grow,speak, fly etc. So you can know when even a tree to a bird dies, the life that was witnin, that which made it truly be alivem returns to God, that's not saying The birds personality went to heaven, just the life that was within, returned to the one who gave it, you can literally imagine as Hashem exhales life comes into the world and as He inhales, life returns to Him. This is backed up from Beginning to Revelation, when the 2 witnesses who lied dead for 3 days, Until The Spirit of Life that comes from God, re entered them.

"Why men goto hell? Hell in actual biblical terms is called Gehenna. 

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

the reason men goto Hell is very simply bc they(above) just like death,, is a Enemy to Israel. ("Her offspring)

God almighty will destroy all of our Enemy's, even tho they are no threat to Him personally, He fights for His children. 

It's all about the Covenant brother.

 

As we can see many man are truly born from the offspring of the serpent, a Enemy to Gods people. So there is no question or wander why most will goto Gehenna, they are a Enemy to Israel. His only People. He's not a God to Gentiles, they must be grafted into Israel. No Gentile will be saved.