Why good men go to hell?

[Your closest friendnt]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

Hmmm.... can you maybe clarify that? Is it being suggested the gospel hadn't been preached to Adam through the "tree of life" that is Christ? Is it being suggested Seth, nor Enoch, nor possible Noah hadn't heard the gospel in someway (since the flood symbolizes baptism that now saves us - 1 Pet. 3:21)? Am I to understand Abraham was the first? Abe was the first and no one living before Abe ever in any way had the gospel preached to them? Not even Mel (unless Mel is seen a Christophany).

 

Abe was the first?

 

Or just the first of a new line of people God had called out and made holy?

The Lord set Abraham and his descendants apart from the rest of the world and he made him a Patriarch of his people, from Abraham to Isaac, to Jacob and all his children. The Lord was the God of the Nation of Israel only, and no one else from the rest of the world. 

(Till Jesus Christ)

For the first time and that never happened before with anyone else, Abraham was alive to God in Life and in death. 

The Lord was his God when he lived on earth and he continued to be his God after he died.

That had never happened before. 

And that applied to his descendants from Issac, Jacob and all his children. 

The Lord mourned when Abel died, and the Lord vow to take revenge on the one who had the right to take Abel away from him because of the fall. 

Abraham was the first man and  his descendants after him whom the devil could not touched and take after their death, as they continued to be the people of God after their death. 

And God set them apart after their death from the rest of the world to a place they called their own. 

This was the Inheritance of Abraham the Patriarch of the people God called his own. 

That's where Jesus Christ first went after his death on the Cross.

As the was from the tribe of David according to the flesh his Inheritance after his death was to go to Abraham. 

And he first gave the good news of the Gospel to them and then to the rest of all the people who had died before him.  

The first to recieved the Life and be under the banner of Jesus Christ was Abraham and all who were with him.

John the Baptist went there before Jesus Christ to prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ to them. As he had met him and he had recieved the witness from Heaven that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah of God.  

Abraham and everyone else with him they were the first to be in Jesus Christ.  

This is why I said in my earlier post:

That Abraham and all who were with him were the first Jesus Christ went to see after his death of the Cross and they were the first to hear the good news of the Gospel from Jesus Christ himself. 

Genesis 17:

    1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

² And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

³ And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

⁴ As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

⁵ Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

⁶ And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

⁷ And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

⁸ And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

⁹ And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

¹⁰ This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

¹¹ And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

¹² And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

¹³ He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

¹⁴ And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

¹⁵ And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

¹⁶ And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

¹⁷ Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

¹⁸ And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

¹⁹ And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

²⁰ And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

²¹ But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

²² And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

²³ And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

²⁴ And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

²⁵ And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

²⁶ In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

²⁷ And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

 

 

[Duck]

James 2:17

how about works without faith?

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Starise said:

 Because He loved us. Why did He love us? This is perhaps the bigger question. 

Yes. Why? 

Because God is love. God doesn't love us because of who we are, He loves us because of who He is.

1 John 4:16 

So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

1 John 4:8 

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The Lord set Abraham and his descendants apart from the rest of the world and he made him a Patriarch of his people, from Abraham to Isaac, to Jacob and all his children. The Lord was the God of the Nation of Israel only, and no one else from the rest of the world. 

Then who, one wonders, is this?

"Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine—since he was priest of God Most High"  Gen 14

Literally named The Prince of Peace. I guess you posit this person only existed when Abraham was alive. From your arguments you likely do. Any proof Melchizedek and the order of Melchizedek didn't exist before Abraham?

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

(Till Jesus Christ)

For the first time and that never happened before with anyone else, Abraham was alive to God in Life and in death. 

"Noah, however, found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God" - Gen 6

Seems Noah would also be alive to God in life and death.

And this:

"And Adam again had relations with his wife, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth saying, “God has granted me another seed in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”

And to Seth also a son was born, and he called him Enosh.

At that time men began to call upon the name of the LORD." - Gen 4

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The Lord was his God when he lived on earth and he continued to be his God after he died.

That had never happened before. 

Arguing from an absence of evidence? Hmm...

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

And that applied to his descendants from Issac, Jacob and all his children. 

The Lord mourned when Abel died, and the Lord vow to take revenge on the one who had the right to take Abel away from him because of the fall. 

Scripture?

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Abraham was the first man and  his descendants after him whom the devil could not touched and take after their death, as they continued to be the people of God after their death. 

Now how would you know this? You would literally have to know the circumstances of every person that lived before Abraham, or have spoken to God and heard Him confirm this, or there should be evidence of scripture in support. If not it's just a tall tale. 

 

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

And God set them apart after their death from the rest of the world to a place they called their own. 

This was the Inheritance of Abraham the Patriarch of the people God called his own. 

That's where Jesus Christ first went after his death on the Cross.

As the was from the tribe of David according to the flesh his Inheritance after his death was to go to Abraham. 

And he first gave the good news of the Gospel to them and then to the rest of all the people who had died before him.  

The first to recieved the Life and be under the banner of Jesus Christ was Abraham and all who were with him.

John the Baptist went there before Jesus Christ to prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ to them. As he had met him and he had recieved the witness from Heaven that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah of God.  

 

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Abraham and everyone else with him they were the first to be in Jesus Christ.

By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken upa so that he did not see death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. - Hebrews 11

 

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” - John 8

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is why I said in my earlier post:

That Abraham and all who were with him were the first Jesus Christ went to see after his death of the Cross and they were the first to hear the good news of the Gospel from Jesus Christ himself. 

But sans proof and contrary to scripture. We can deduce that at least 1 person was with God before Abraham, Enoch, and that is because of Jesus Christ for three reasons:

1)“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

2)“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 

3) If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Jesus was before Abraham, Enoch cannot get to God without Jesus, Jesus is God.

I'm convinced Enoch understood the good news. And many others, before Abraham.

[Your closest friendnt]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then who, one wonders, is this?

"Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine—since he was priest of God Most High"  Gen 14

Literally named The Prince of Peace. I guess you posit this person only existed when Abraham was alive. From your arguments you likely do. Any proof Melchizedek and the order of Melchizedek didn't exist before Abraham?

"Noah, however, found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God" - Gen 6

Seems Noah would also be alive to God in life and death.

And this:

"And Adam again had relations with his wife, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth saying, “God has granted me another seed in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”

And to Seth also a son was born, and he called him Enosh.

At that time men began to call upon the name of the LORD." - Gen 4

Arguing from an absence of evidence? Hmm...

Scripture?

Now how would you know this? You would literally have to know the circumstances of every person that lived before Abraham, or have spoken to God and heard Him confirm this, or there should be evidence of scripture in support. If not it's just a tall tale. 

 

 

By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken upa so that he did not see death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. - Hebrews 11

 

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” - John 8

But sans proof and contrary to scripture. We can deduce that at least 1 person was with God before Abraham, Enoch, and that is because of Jesus Christ for three reasons:

1)“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

2)“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 

3) If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Jesus was before Abraham, Enoch cannot get to God without Jesus, Jesus is God.

I'm convinced Enoch understood the good news. And many others, before Abraham.

There are many issues that need to be clarified to be able to sort out our ways of approaching to what happen to people who were righteous before Abraham and then before the death of Jesus Christ, and then to all the people who had died before Jesus Christ death on the Cross, and to everyone who lived and died after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 

I made the distinction I said those who died, and not included Enoch who did not died, or Elijah who did not died are the exceptions. 

For them we may ask, what would have happened to them, if they were allowed to live till they died.  

In the case of Enoch who lived before the flood, and for that matter he was not the seed of Abraham and definitely not the seed of Jesus Christ who died for thousand years later. 

    ****We have the story of Abel the first man who died.

Abel who was born after the fall of the first man Adam.

And this is what God said to the Devil who was instrumental to Eve's and Adam's disobedience who cause the fall, from life unto death. 

The Devil caused them to fall to him to the death Inheritance. 

Man after death did not have Inheritance with God, who is in the Life, man had Inherit death could not be with God who is in the life after his death.

When he lives this is another matter, as we see man can worship God and seek his blessing and God responded. 

But only in life, when man died he was taken away from God. 

We can see that in the example of Abel a righteous person approved by God as a righteous person, but in death and not in the Life, because that what he inherited from his father Adam, and righteousness it does not restore a person unto Life back to God. 

Genesis 4:4

4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions(H) from some of the firstborn of his flock.(I) The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering,(J) 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast

In spite of the righteousness of Abel at his death God mourned for Abel because he was not with him. As Abel was in death and cannot be with him.

Genesis 4:8-10 

8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.”[d] While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.(N)

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?”(O)

“I don’t know,(P)” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.(Q) 

(God was looking for Abel after Abel's death, because Abel was not in Heaven. 

   ****And he promised revenge on the one who took him from him by right. 

That one day God will take Abel back from him. 

Matthew 23:35

35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel(AL) to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah,(AM) whom

(Enough for now)

To be continued. 

And give you the opportunity to study and respond. 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Frits]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Scripture?

Quote

Abraham was the first man and  his descendants after him whom the devil could not touched and take after their death, as they continued to be the people of God after their death. 

Expand  

Now how would you know this? You would literally have to know the circumstances of every person that lived before Abraham, or have spoken to God and heard Him confirm this, or there should be evidence of scripture in support. If not it's just a tall tale. 

Hi Diaste,

When you are rightious then you are good, good people don't go to hel. So Abel, Henoch, Abraham, and Moses, didn't go to hel. They are all good and rightious people. About Abel the Lord Jesus said he is rightious. (please read Mt.23:35)

As a proof they after dying didn't come in torment in Hades:

Moses (and Elia too) came with a glorified body to meet the Lord Jesus on the mountain. (Mt.17:3)

Edited January 14, 2021 by Frits

[Diaste]

7 minutes ago, Frits said:

Hi Diaste,

When you are rightious then you are good, good people don't go to hel. So Abel, Henoch, Abraham, and Moses, didn't go to hel. They are all good and rightious people. About Abel the Lord Jesus said he is rightious. (please read Mt.23:35)

As a proof they after dying didn't come in torment in Hades:

Moses (and Elia too) came with a glorified body to meet the Lord Jesus on the mountain. (Mt.17:3)

Sure. I understand. I think what others are getting at is a small but important distinction; men aren't good as defined by the Most High God.

Good as defined by people is another standard not used by God.

Being counted as righteous by God is not the same as being good in God's eyes. 

Unless you have scripture that calls people who are counted as righteous by God, also being called good by God, of course.

Can you provide that scripture? 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then who, one wonders, is this?

"Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine—since he was priest of God Most High"  Gen 14

Literally named The Prince of Peace. I guess you posit this person only existed when Abraham was alive. From your arguments you likely do. Any proof Melchizedek and the order of Melchizedek didn't exist before Abraham?

"Noah, however, found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God" - Gen 6

Seems Noah would also be alive to God in life and death.

And this:

"And Adam again had relations with his wife, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth saying, “God has granted me another seed in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”

And to Seth also a son was born, and he called him Enosh.

At that time men began to call upon the name of the LORD." - Gen 4

Arguing from an absence of evidence? Hmm...

Scripture?

Now how would you know this? You would literally have to know the circumstances of every person that lived before Abraham, or have spoken to God and heard Him confirm this, or there should be evidence of scripture in support. If not it's just a tall tale. 

 

 

By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken upa so that he did not see death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. - Hebrews 11

 

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” - John 8

But sans proof and contrary to scripture. We can deduce that at least 1 person was with God before Abraham, Enoch, and that is because of Jesus Christ for three reasons:

1)“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

2)“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 

3) If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Jesus was before Abraham, Enoch cannot get to God without Jesus, Jesus is God.

I'm convinced Enoch understood the good news. And many others, before Abraham.

Roman's 5:14 

14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam. 

    *****

This is not quite correct because death did not rein upon Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his and all Jacob's descendants excluding only those who were cut off from God according to the Law. 

Exodus 3:6 

I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” When Moses heard this, he covered his face because he was afraid to look at God.

Jesus said in Mathew 22:32 that Abraham, Isaac , and Jacob the Patriarch of the Israelites are alive to him after their death, and by DEFAULT the descendants of Jacob. 

God had cleansed Abraham's seed from the inherited death that was upon all heirs of Adam. 

From Abraham to Issac and Jacob and all his house. 

Mathew 22:32

   32 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." 

God gave Abraham his own place from the rest of the world, because he was set apart from the rest of the world, he was alive to God after death. 

For Abraham it happened at the time God enter into the Covenant of Circumcision with Abraham. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Frits]

39 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You stiil have not provied a single verse wherein God calls anyone "good."

To solve this, (on p.21) I asked you:

"You have now wrongly qualified a number of men of God being no good, 'sinners', including Abraham, Moses and the apostle Peter.
But you haven't said anything about the Lord Jesus yet. He also was on earth as a human being, and of Him God the Father said:

Mat.3:17 KJV
'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.'

Regarding Jesus God also used the word 'pleased', so the man Jesus Christ was not 'good' according to you?"

Please explain this to us.

And when you explain that, please explain at the same time how it was possible that sinner Moses, as you call him (!), met the Lord Jesus on the mountain in a glorified body? (Mt.17:3)
You said Moses was a sinner! Sinners go to hell, right Josh?  How could sinner Moses (your words!) come out of hell? 

 

 

[Frits]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Good as defined by people is another standard not used by God.

I fully agree with that.