Why good men go to hell?

[Your closest friendnt]

58 minutes ago, Starise said:

I  had some thoughts on this. If you could so kindly do so that would be great.

At this time and inspite of what Abraham hoped  that God will give him a son,  Abraham was still childless and he voicedhiscomplain to God. (to be scripture correct  God had not changed his name yet, he was Abram still then, God was talking to Abram and not to Abraham as yet. 

And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

******5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.****

7 And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

8 And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

 

******Abram believe in God all his life he never bowed down to Idols. 

Abram was a righteous man, God found him from the beginning to be a righteous man, I do not make that up. It is scripture base. 

*****

Abram believe that God will give him a Son from him inspite of how everything else in his sircumstances not only his age but the age of Sarah was in question.  

This is it God promised him a son but he did not mention Sarah at that time. 

God imputed righteousness to a righteous Abram. not renaming him Abraham at that time...and not because he believed in God but when he believed God who told him not that he will bless him with Son but that he will bless sons sons so his seed will be multiple as the stars of the sky..who as we know continuously multiplying and never seize to multiply.  

He promised that his seed will never come to extinction or disappear in mixing with other seeds. Sensitivity in that matter, with Jesus Christ there has been a big change...God himself change the rules even for him and have children from all the Nations of the world.  The seed of Jesus Christ will never seize and continuous multiple replication. 

So God gave Abraham imputed righteousness

(not his righteousness but his own)

because Abraham believed in promised that he will not only bless him and made him fruitful but he will bless and make his offerings very fruitful.  And Abram believed the promise God made to him. Then because of that God recon righteousness to Abraham as to make his promise come to pass guarantee, God was not depending on Abraham and or his children to mantain them selves in righteousness. 

 

[missmuffet]

" The road to hell is paved with good intentions", but the road to heaven is paved with obedient faith. 

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I commend this but Starise is not entirely incorrect. Starise, I think perhaps this should be considered: forgiveness in the OT was not always eternal. Forgiving a sin is not the same as forgiving sinfulness. There is only one way to God: through the Son. This is not something new. The only way to God has always been through the Son, and Abraham knew this. So did Moses, and David. So did many others. Your point about the OT informing the NT is 100% correct and it is equally true the NT renders or interprets the OT. What was veiled in the OT is made known in the NT. 

And two of the things made known in the NT that weren't made clear in the OT is 1) the Law does not justify anyone eternally, and 2) Jesus is the only way to God eternally. 

 

 

Quote

And, Your closest friendnt, do you mean to say no one has ever had rightouesness imputed to them, or do you mean to say any imputed righteousness is not because the person believed in God? Could you clarify that for me?

I was responding to an assertion that God was imputing righteousness, to everyone who believe in God from the beginning from Adam forwards. And with respect to the brother he may not have come out as he thought but that's how a reader may take it and form the wrong belief. 

So I made a bold statement which it is truth.

Belief in God before Jesus Christ was honor to a tee, but did not cause by DEFAULT the righteousness of God to come to anyone who believes in him.

Noah was given as an example and as we read the account of Noah with God , God found Noah to be a righteous person and chose him for the events that followed. 

Noah continued to be a righteous person we do not know about him much, only that God refused to make him a Patriarch for his own people the way he did for Abraham. 

And to do that he gave to a righteous Abram (at that time he was not remained Abraham and his is a very rewarding effort to looked into those details for it's no necessary but for my self at least. 

At that time the Lord in Genesis chapter 15: promised to Abram who was getting very old that he will bless him with a son, and went on as to give peace to Abraham that he will continue to bless his sons sons continuously till they become as numerous as the stars in the sky and they will never come to extension.  

That what Abraham believed that God will do that and keep his promise to him to  make him the Father of all those people to be born after him and for him having the blessing of the  Lord upon them base on the promise of God and not on what they would do or not.

and God was pleased with him that Abraham believed in his promise to him and counted to him as righteousness.  

So from now on not even the contact of Abraham would prevent the Lord from bringing to pass his promise to him, and he imidiadly God bind himself with an aught if we can say that for what followed. 

Good to note that they were a lot of things God did not tell Abram at that time, his plants that he would take a people for himself out of him.

Abram was not in Circumcision at that time. And he did not mention Sarah just yet. 

Hope it is clear.

As we did not yet are in the Covenant of Circumcision which came later on and at that time God rename Abram to Abraham and name Sarah as the mother of the son of promise the mother of his Gods people.

PS

When God recon to Abraham righteousness that also gave Abraham rest from watching over his shoulder to remain in his own righteousness, nothing could stop God to do what he had proposed to do to have a people for himsel out of A righteous Patriarch. 

To be a God of a people who after they died the God of the dead could not have them. Could not touch them.

This happened for the first time with Abraham. 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Starise]

16 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I was responding to an assertion that God was imputing righteousness, to everyone who believe in God from the beginning from Adam forwards. And with respect to the brother he may not have come out as he thought but that's how a reader may take it and form the wrong belief. 

There may have been a misunderstanding here which is possible especially if you don't normally speak English. I don't believe anyone here has said this? I did not say this. 

God chose Abram. Abram followed and obeyed. Abram had faith. I believe salvation was possible since Adam, but certainly not everyone would be saved because not everyone would follow. The key word is potential. Everyone had or has the potential to be saved.

[johnthebaptist]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Please tell us the source of your beliefs if they are from the totality of scripture or if they come from another source or book.

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."  Matthew 4:17 RSV

[johnthebaptist]

3 hours ago, David1701 said:

That is not a serious argument.  There are many Scriptures about acting wisely.  Biblical principles are against causing reckless harm, they do not need to specify every example of such harm.

There is, however, proof that the torment in hell is forever.  The smoke of their torment rises perpetually.  The worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.  The duration of the punishment is the same as duration of the eternal life of the saved.

Do you need scriptural quotes, because I can supply them easily?

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."  Matthew 4:17 RSV

[johnthebaptist]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

That's not an answer to his inquiry. Be forthcoming enough to say, "No, I don't know of anything in scripture that states what I said." 

And then, if you feel so led, add, "But that is an argument from silence. Scripture speaks to all things but it does not always do so explicitly." 

Dodging the question is lame. 

 

Alternatively, if there is nothing in scripture even remotely implying sinners return from hell or people in hell repent then change your thinking, change your post. One of the reasons discussions like this exist is so that we might have our own thoughts tested and amend them as warranted by concerns broached by others. Clarifying your position is a good thing. Avoiding valid inquiry is not. Changing your mind where warranted is a good thing. Refusing to do so is not.

I can assure you David will not shy away or take offense if you directly say what you mean and use scripture to do so. I know because on more than one occasion I have traded days' worth of posts with him and done so with change in thought on both our ends and with some areas of disagreement persisting in the end. You should feel blessed he asked and consider the opportunity to prove your case with him just that: an opportunity. Might even be providence .

 

How can I explain to you what you won't accept?:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."  Matthew 4:17 RSV

 

[David1701]

10 minutes ago, johnthebaptist said:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."  Matthew 4:17 RSV

I'm sure that you have a point to make, I'm just not sure what it is.

Jesus was preaching to people who were still alive, not people who had been sent to hell, after Judgment Day, which hasn't happened yet.

[johnthebaptist]

12 minutes ago, David1701 said:

I'm sure that you have a point to make, I'm just not sure what it is.

Jesus was preaching to people who were still alive, not people who had been sent to hell, after Judgment Day, which hasn't happened yet.

You have to understand what heaven and hell are, I believe. Matthew 4:17 gives you the clue. It's just that no one wants to repent and found out what happens when they do.

[David1701]

1 hour ago, johnthebaptist said:

You have to understand what heaven and hell are, I believe. Matthew 4:17 gives you the clue. It's just that no one wants to repent and found out what happens when they do.

We are not in heaven or hell yet.  That happens after we die.